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Legendary: Villains – A Marvel Deck Building Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Loki's Father of Lies card question rss

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Vega Dark
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I was in a game yesterday where another player used Loki's "Father of Lies" card on me (This card allows you to look at the top 2 cards of another player's deck and declare 1 "good" and 1 "bad", and then that player chooses 1 to discard and 1 to go in the opponent's discard pile). Because it was early in the game, I knew what the top card of my deck was since I didn't draw what I was hoping for and only had 1 card left.

My opponent believed that he could take the top 2 cards and shuffle them under the table so I couldn't see, so I would no longer have any information regarding the card I knew to be one I wanted to keep. I strongly disagreed that this was allowed, and feel that if someone had information on those cards, then they should get to keep that information. After searching for a card clarification we didn't come up with anything and eventually played my way.

Any thoughts on this issue? Thanks.
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Frank Big Poppi
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I have to disagree with you.

One could argue that since he has to use the top two cards you already know what one of the cards is, which in itself is an advantage. The purpose of the card is to toy with you.
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Darth Ed
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What's the card text exactly?
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Todd Warnken
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Father of Lies wrote:
Look at the top two cards of another player's deck. Without revealing those cards, call one of the "Good" and one "Bad." That player puts one of those cards into their discard pile and the other into your discard pile.


The intent is the other player does not know which card is which.
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Knobbly Savage
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First of all, for reference, the card reads:

Father of Lies wrote:
Look at the top two cards of another player's deck. Without revealing those cards, call one of them "Good" and one of them "Bad". That player puts one of those cards into their discard pile and the other into your discard pile.


I would play it your friend's way. The intention behind the card is clearly that you have to ask yourself "is Loki lying to me, or is he telling me the truth because he believes that I will believe that he is lying?" If you were able to look at the top of your deck before, you might know what one or even both of these cards are (or, as in your case, through knowing that it has to be that one card), but the decision (and the fun part of it) should still be this Princess Bride-moment.

I guess you can make a case that the card doesn't specifically say that he can shuffle them up, but for me that would take the fun out of that card.

Just my two cents

Edit: Thanks to GreyElephant Gaming, who showed Father of Lies in their Crush Hydra Live Play, as I do not have Villains yet
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Brian Morris
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You are correct and your friend was wrong. Remember the golden rule. The card means exactly what it says. Just because you know what card is on top of your deck through deduction doesn't change the Father of Lies card or how it's played.
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Vega Dark
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I think this wouldn't apply 95% of the time. You aren't going to know what either of the top two cards are so it won't matter. But if you are lucky enough to be able to have some information, I don't think the other player can secretly mess the order up so you have no idea what you are dealing with. Again, 95% of the time this would be a non-issue since you wouldn't know anything.
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jeremiah kiper
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So then by your argument that it is played exact and it doesn't say you can mix the two cards up, you can't do it. Does tht also mean that you can't look at the fronts of the cards since it says look at them and you can look at two cards just from the backside. I mean technically seeing the card itself is looking at it. Are you also saying that since the card says top two cards and there was only one that the game is stalled indefinitely since you can't complete the card since it doesn't say to reshuffle if there aren't enough? I can see either side of it. I kinda like that certain heroes such as gambit will give you inside info, but knowing 1 of 2 cards still wouldn't necessarily mean you'll make the right choice as the other card could be something you wanted to keep more or visa versa.
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Knobbly Savage
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VegaDark541 wrote:
I think this wouldn't apply 95% of the time. You aren't going to know what either of the top two cards are so it won't matter. But if you are lucky enough to be able to have some information, I don't think the other player can secretly mess the order up so you have no idea what you are dealing with. Again, 95% of the time this would be a non-issue since you wouldn't know anything.


You are right, but we are talking about the other 5%

I feel that the rules are fuzzy enough here that it comes down to a judgement call, and I would in this case err on the side of the decision that makes for more interesting gameplay, and that in my opinion reflects the spirit of the card. Usually, you will find me to be someone who very much argues from a literalist position, and pointing to things like fine grammatical distinctions as the basis for rulings - but in this case, I just do not feel there is a strong enough basis to definitely go with your version.
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John Galietta III
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It is really the decision of the players, but here are my thoughts:

Intent/Flavor of the card: As people have said, by the intent of the card (Loki's trickery and deceit), the goal is that Loki is giving you a "Princess Bride-esque"(nice analogy) choice, where you can't really know the answer, but you can try and analyze your opponent's thoughts. For those who enjoy keeping the spirit of the game, this would say that only the player using the Loki card should have any knowledge of what they are.

Rules specific: This could go both ways, but I'd argue that the rules also support being able to randomize. Yes, the card says top 2, but does the rule say you have to keep those cards in the same order the whole time? Since neither will be going back on top of the deck, there is no reason they have to be kept in the same order. By the rules, the cards in a player's deck, as well as the order of those cards, should not be common knowledge to any player. Some cards let you reorder your cards or put a card on top of your deck, but once it is there, you should not expect any special treatment just because you know the top card. The same goes with games like this where you can go down to one card. yes, you can deduce what that card is, but by general card game rules you have no right to guarantee what that card is at all times. Otherwise, you could shuffle and leave that card on top, because why not, you know what it is. A player should expect no knowledge of cards in their deck, or their order, regardless of the circumstance.

Just personal opinion thought.
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Brian Morris
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This is a really interesting question. On the one hand you have my "Golden Rule" interpretation which is you play the card as it is written. On the flip side there is the "spirit of the rule" interpretation which is the person is intended to make a blind choice based upon the information given to them by the person playing Loki.

You can really play this either way. You have to say from the start however that this is what you do with the Father of Lies card. In a way however that's sort of making a house rule and I hate house rules. The reason being because you have a new person join your group, they get the card played on them and you go "We have a house rule for this that...". That tends to leave a bit of hard feelings for the new guy who suddenly has a new rule that's not in the rulebook thrown at him to his detriment.

Would love to hear an official ruling on this and if there is a FAQ for the game this is one that should be in it. Until I hear something different though I'm going to stick with the golden rule but I can truly see it played either way.
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Jacovis
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mrbeankc wrote:
This is a really interesting question. On the one hand you have my "Golden Rule" interpretation which is you play the card as it is written. On the flip side there is the "spirit of the rule" interpretation which is the person is intended to make a blind choice based upon the information given to them by the person playing Loki.

You can really play this either way. You have to say from the start however that this is what you do with the Father of Lies card. In a way however that's sort of making a house rule and I hate house rules. The reason being because you have a new person join your group, they get the card played on them and you go "We have a house rule for this that...". That tends to leave a bit of hard feelings for the new guy who suddenly has a new rule that's not in the rulebook thrown at him to his detriment.

Would love to hear an official ruling on this and if there is a FAQ for the game this is one that should be in it. Until I hear something different though I'm going to stick with the golden rule but I can truly see it played either way.


I'm giving the game a little time (and Devin time to chime in) before posting the FAQ. It is definitely in the works, however!

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William
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I think the key here is the word "look". What does it mean to look? My thought is that looking is the same as peaking. In most games if you peak at the top cards you make sure that everyone knows what order they were in and what order they go back. That action is certainly different than drawing. When drawing cards, they no longer belong to a deck. They can be arranged however you like in your hand. So, my thoughts are that if the player playing the Loki card were allowed to shuffle the cards, then the phrasing on the card would say "pick up" or "draw" instead of just simply to "look", or dare I say "peak". So it all boils down to what does it mean to look?

And, has a player "earned" his "right to know" the order of his deck, and at what point should that knowledge can be taken from him?

Interesting.
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Brian Morris
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William you have a good point. Let's say the card said that the player could look at the two cards on top of an opponent's deck. Can that player then shuffle the two cards and put them back because the owner knew what the top card was? I don't think so.

Your second point is also a good one. There are a number of cards in the game that allow a player to look at the top card of their deck. The intent is to give that player an advantage by knowing what the top card of their deck is. I don't think the intent of the Loki card is to take away an advantage or reward that a player earned from a previous card. In effect the previous card becomes an important defensive card in the game when playing with Loki and thus part of the strategy.

By the way, played the game tonight with my wife who (a) rarely plays games and (b) surprised me by really enjoying it (she had not previously played Legendary). We played with Loki and indeed Father of Lies came up. I told the truth under the thought that I have to sleep sometime and she could take a pillow and....

Next time however...
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Jacovis
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My wife likes Legendary a lot as well. She also likes a lot of other games, but she hates the DC game (whereas I tolerate it if necessary) and several others I thought she would like so I was pleasantly surprised as well. It's quite a fun adventure!

mrbeankc wrote:
William you have a good point. Let's say the card said that the player could look at the two cards on top of an opponent's deck. Can that player then shuffle the two cards and put them back because the owner knew what the top card was? I don't think so.

Your second point is also a good one. There are a number of cards in the game that allow a player to look at the top card of their deck. The intent is to give that player an advantage by knowing what the top card of their deck is. The don't think the intent of the Loki card is to take away an advantage or reward that a player earned from a previous card. In effect the previous card becomes an important defensive card in the game when playing with Loki and thus part of the strategy.

By the way, played the game tonight with my wife who (a) rarely plays games and (b) surprised me by really enjoying it (she had not previously played Legendary). We played with Loki and indeed Father of Lies came up. I told the truth under the thought that I have to sleep sometime and she could take a pillow and....

Next time however...
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Tomer Mlynarsky
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I would say your friend is right because the card says you don't reveal those cards. I mean what he really (in good faith) dropped those cards and they got mixed up.

What then? That shouldn't matter either way and because it says you don't reveal the cards then you won't be able to question them again.
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John Cocktosen
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Interesting scenario. When me and my buddies have played Loki and that card has come up we all just naturally assumed that the player who played the card looked at the two cards of another player, shuffled them up, called one good and one bad, a card was picked, and that was that. There was never a discussion - it just seemed like it was a natural reaction, the default setting if you will.

The way we always looked at it, from a flavor point of view, is that it's Loki! This is what happens when you deal with the Mischief Maker. "Oh, you knew what you were going to do next? Muahahahahahaha, not so much, lad."

However, I am interested in seeing a ruling on this.
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trevor nelson
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It seems that either way one player is at an advantage and the debate here is which one should have it. I believe it should not go to the player playing Loki for a number of reasons.

First off the player who knows the top card of their deck found out by some sort of strategy, whether that's a card effect or card counting. The player with the Loki card simply purchased the card. Even more that player should a lack of strategy, in a 3+ player game, by picking a player who knows what the top card is. Father of Lies is about deception and 5% of the time a player has extra information that let's them see through part of the deception and know one of the 2 cards.

On the flip side I don't see The intention of Father of Lies being to take the best cards from other players. For me the point is to take any card from other players and KO it to gain new recruits with All Humans are Expendable. Not getting the better card shouldn't hurt the Loki player, it's just a bonus if they do.

I would rather reward the player who thought ahead and had a counter strategy 5% of the time rather then the player who played one card and didn't think ahead by picking the player who had a counter strategy. Then again, there's some in my gaming group who disagree and it's all just a matter of opinion really so play with whichever way gets the most entertainment for the group.
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Dan Smith
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Since the cards don't go back on top of your deck, there is no requirement to keep them in the same order.

So when your opponent labels one good and one bad, he doesn't have to keep them in the order they were on your deck.
 
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