Sam
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So a lot of the game is spent adding cards to your deck (hunting, digging, skirmishing) and my deck grew in size very quickly. About half way through the game I bought my first Saboteur, which I was quite excited about using, but then because my deck was already so big it didn't come out for the whole of the rest of the game.

In something like dominion you're basically just trying to get a small, efficient engine going and then quickly buy up all the victory points cards at the end, but in this, as everything gets you points, after about half way through the game, it seemed as though everything I did was fairly arbitrary. I was just buying and digging for anything I could. I played with the first expansion module.

Sorry if this sounds stupid. I will obviously play a bunch more times and see if my ideas change. Is it the strategy I'm missing? Am I just bad at this game? I did come last...
 
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Ivor Bolakov
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If it was just with the first module, did you try slimming down your deck by dropping refugees, and therefore cycling your other, better cards more often?

Quote:
as everything gets you points


Not everything, surely. You're meant to be counting population.
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Well you missed one rule that each turn you can trash any number of cards from your hand put them in the Junkyard pile and shuffle it

this way you can have a very slim deck
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Ray Black III
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Muse23PT wrote:
Well you missed one rule that each turn you can trash any number of cards from your hand put them in the Junkyard pile and shuffle it

this way you can have a very slim deck


I'd have to refer to the rules, but I think you can only trash one card per hand. Either way, you've got the right idea.

And in addition to dropping your Refugees in the early stages of the game to ensure your Brawlers and Scavengers come out, I always try to start losing some of my gear in the laters stages of the game. Once the Thugs and Group Leaders are gone, you only need so many shovels and nets.
 
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Sam
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I realise not everything gets you points, but every mercenary you buy does. Also I trashed my refugees very early on. I would have dumped my scavengers and brawlers early but I only would have replaced them with things getting me 1 or 2 points, and they didn't seem to particularly hinder my progress. It just felt like my deck ended up being a big mess of cards. I just hired whoever I could, as they're mostly worth the same at the end, they don't vary massively and I was only likely to actually get dealt the card I bought once or twice over the rest of the game. I don't really know what I'm trying to say or ask here, it just all felt like it didn't quite work.
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raythe3rd wrote:
Muse23PT wrote:
Well you missed one rule that each turn you can trash any number of cards from your hand put them in the Junkyard pile and shuffle it

this way you can have a very slim deck


I'd have to refer to the rules, but I think you can only trash one card per hand. Either way, you've got the right idea.

And in addition to dropping your Refugees in the early stages of the game to ensure your Brawlers and Scavengers come out, I always try to start losing some of my gear in the laters stages of the game. Once the Thugs and Group Leaders are gone, you only need so many shovels and nets.


Page 9 of the Rulebook:

!Trash – The trash ability is a free action (no card is needed to
grant this action) that allows players to place any number of
cards from the player’s hand and add them to the junkyard

supply pile. The player DOES NOT draw cards from his/her
deck to replace these cards. "
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sammmmmy195 wrote:
About half way through the game I bought my first Saboteur, which I was quite excited about using, but then because my deck was already so big it didn't come out for the whole of the rest of the game.


This sounds to me like you might have been playing incorrectly. Were you aware that you can only do a hire action once per turn?
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Thunderous_Genius wrote:
sammmmmy195 wrote:
About half way through the game I bought my first Saboteur, which I was quite excited about using, but then because my deck was already so big it didn't come out for the whole of the rest of the game.


This sounds to me like you might have been playing incorrectly. Were you aware that you can only do a hire action once per turn?


Yes. I'm almost certain I got all the rules correct. I think I will just try again and see how my opinion changes.
 
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Pat Connolly
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A mistake my son and his friends made was thinking that "one hiring action" meant that they could hire as many mercs as their resources allowed and that "one dig action" meant that they could keep whatever they found in the junkyard. Nope. You get to hire ONE merc and keep ONE junkyard item. So if you hire, dig, and win the skirmish you could add 3 cards to your deck each turn.

If you don't want a big deck, play with the cannibal or butcher and thin your herd.
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sammmmmy195 wrote:
I realise not everything gets you points, but every mercenary you buy does. Also I trashed my refugees very early on. I would have dumped my scavengers and brawlers early but I only would have replaced them with things getting me 1 or 2 points, and they didn't seem to particularly hinder my progress. It just felt like my deck ended up being a big mess of cards. I just hired whoever I could, as they're mostly worth the same at the end, they don't vary massively and I was only likely to actually get dealt the card I bought once or twice over the rest of the game. I don't really know what I'm trying to say or ask here, it just all felt like it didn't quite work.


Estates get you points in Dominion yet you should always trash those. The new cards you bought that were worth 1 or 2 more points, likely helped you get additional cards more efficiently.
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Robert K Gabhart
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In addition to earlier comments (trashing, only acquiring one card per dig and one per hire), buildings from the HQ expansion will introduce deck management (store a merc in a bunker, tool in the armory, or medicine in the pharmacy). This allows you to have a bit more control over the timing of using key cards.

Your point about the last few acquisitions not mattering is a bit situational. It could matter a lot if you grab the last Thugs (worth 3). It could matter a lot if you grab the last Hunter (only merc that can be acquired by merely discarding a medicine card) as this forces opponents to invest more useful cards in hiring, further depleting their skirmish forces if they want to hire that round.

Finally, if you include the gangs from HQ, then your hiring / digging decisions matter all the way to the end. Engineers break ties on Masons. Medics break ties on Pharmers. Gearheads care about tools (so what you dig up matters).

So, directly to your point - are you going to get to use your Saboteur that you bought in the last 3 rounds of the game? Probably not. But grabbing the Saboteur so someone else doesn't have an easy buy (like someone playing with the Sergeant of Arms leader who is able to hire sabos for only 1 med) could be good. Also, who you hire and what you dig out does matter in terms of contesting over gangs and blocking other players out of easy decisions.

Hopefully future plays will feel more satisfying for you.

**One more thing**
The up-coming Deception expansion includes Smugglers. With this merc you can fish up to two cards out of your discard and place them on top of your deck. :-D
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Mike Hunnicutt
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gabhart wrote:
Your point about the last few acquisitions not mattering is a bit situational. It could matter a lot if you grab the last Thugs (worth 3). It could matter a lot if you grab the last Hunter (only merc that can be acquired by merely discarding a medicine card) as this forces opponents to invest more useful cards in hiring, further depleting their skirmish forces if they want to hire that round.


I've played this once so far, in a four player game using the tribal leaders. I'm pretty sure I one the bulk of the skirmishes, especially toward the end of the game.

And yet, I lost by one tribe member. See, while I was raking in all the loot, effectively locking out all my opponents, they were picking up actual scoring cards. Sometimes those seemingly useless acquisitions can make all the difference.

gabhart wrote:

**One more thing**
The up-coming Deception expansion includes Smugglers. With this merc you can fish up to two cards out of your discard and place them on top of your deck. :-D


I'm throwing money at the screen but nothing's happening!
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I have the same problem. I love this game, but i constantly wonder what i should discard. I don't want to discard anything worth points.

Why would you give up points?

That's almost as bad as giving points to your opponent!

If you give up 4 Refugees, you are giving up four points. If your opponent keeps all of his/her refugees, he/she could win because you threw away four points.

I understand giving up copper in Dominion, or tools in this game, but one thing I've learned in gaming is to never trow away points, and never give points to your opponent. It's bad strategy.

So how do you build an efficient deck?
 
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michaeljzerby wrote:
I have the same problem. I love this game, but i constantly wonder what i should discard. I don't want to discard anything worth points.

Why would you give up points?

That's almost as bad as giving points to your opponent!

If you give up 4 Refugees, you are giving up four points. If your opponent keeps all of his/her refugees, he/she could win because you threw away four points.

I understand giving up copper in Dominion, or tools in this game, but one thing I've learned in gaming is to never trow away points, and never give points to your opponent. It's bad strategy.

So how do you build an efficient deck?


You should always trash your Estates in Dominion. Your copper is actually more useful than the Estates. The same principal applies here, you sometimes have to give up something now to get more later.
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michaeljzerby wrote:
I have the same problem. I love this game, but i constantly wonder what i should discard. I don't want to discard anything worth points.

Why would you give up points?

That's almost as bad as giving points to your opponent!

If you give up 4 Refugees, you are giving up four points. If your opponent keeps all of his/her refugees, he/she could win because you threw away four points.

I understand giving up copper in Dominion, or tools in this game, but one thing I've learned in gaming is to never trow away points, and never give points to your opponent. It's bad strategy.

So how do you build an efficient deck?


you can trash them... they go to the junkyard and near the end of the game you start digging in the junkyard again to get back some of those points
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charlest wrote:
michaeljzerby wrote:
I have the same problem. I love this game, but i constantly wonder what i should discard. I don't want to discard anything worth points.

Why would you give up points?

That's almost as bad as giving points to your opponent!

If you give up 4 Refugees, you are giving up four points. If your opponent keeps all of his/her refugees, he/she could win because you threw away four points.

I understand giving up copper in Dominion, or tools in this game, but one thing I've learned in gaming is to never trow away points, and never give points to your opponent. It's bad strategy.

So how do you build an efficient deck?


You should always trash your Estates in Dominion. Your copper is actually more useful than the Estates. The same principal applies here, you sometimes have to give up something now to get more later.


I've lost a lot of games of Dominion by trashing a couple estates. Guess how many points I lost by...
 
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Pat Connolly
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gabhart wrote:
**One more thing**
The up-coming Deception expansion includes Smugglers. With this merc you can fish up to two cards out of your discard and place them on top of your deck. :-D

I like this idea, but don't understand why it would be a "smuggler" who does this. In my mind the reason used cards go to the discard pile is that people are tired and need to rest and tools need to be fixed. What about a tool (energy drink) that lets you refresh people from the discard to the draw and a person (mechanic) who lets you refurbish tools from the discard to the draw?
Calling him a "smuggler" gave me another idea - a "thief". No skills of any kind, except you can use him to try to steal a tool from another tribe's discard pile. He picks a card at random from the targeted tribe's discard pile - if it's a tool or junk he brings it back to your discard pile; if it's a person he is captured and the targete tribe can either convert him to their side or execute him.
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michaeljzerby wrote:
charlest wrote:
michaeljzerby wrote:
I have the same problem. I love this game, but i constantly wonder what i should discard. I don't want to discard anything worth points.

Why would you give up points?

That's almost as bad as giving points to your opponent!

If you give up 4 Refugees, you are giving up four points. If your opponent keeps all of his/her refugees, he/she could win because you threw away four points.

I understand giving up copper in Dominion, or tools in this game, but one thing I've learned in gaming is to never trow away points, and never give points to your opponent. It's bad strategy.

So how do you build an efficient deck?


You should always trash your Estates in Dominion. Your copper is actually more useful than the Estates. The same principal applies here, you sometimes have to give up something now to get more later.


I've lost a lot of games of Dominion by trashing a couple estates. Guess how many points I lost by...


Less points than you would have lost by if you kept those Estates (assuming you played well). I don't want to derail the thread, but it has a direct correlation to this game and other deckbuilders. I've played over a thousand games of Dominion (mostly online via Isotropic), and I don't consider myself that good. I've never seen a really good player keep Estates when they had the option to trash them. It hurts too much to draw them.

In AS, like other deckbuilders, you want to maximize the potential of each and every turn. You need to trash to bring out the strength of those stronger cards. It does seem like you don't need to trash as much in AS though as a game like Dominion.
 
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patcon wrote:
gabhart wrote:
**One more thing**
The up-coming Deception expansion includes Smugglers. With this merc you can fish up to two cards out of your discard and place them on top of your deck. :-D

I like this idea, but don't understand why it would be a "smuggler" who does this. In my mind the reason used cards go to the discard pile is that people are tired and need to rest and tools need to be fixed. What about a tool (energy drink) that lets you refresh people from the discard to the draw and a person (mechanic) who lets you refurbish tools from the discard to the draw?

Yeah, that makes better sense and by splitting up the ability on several cards (energy drink/bar and mechanic) you're forcing players to specialize their deck.

patcon wrote:
Calling him a "smuggler" gave me another idea - a "thief". No skills of any kind, except you can use him to try to steal a tool from another tribe's discard pile. He picks a card at random from the targeted tribe's discard pile - if it's a tool or junk he brings it back to your discard pile; if it's a person he is captured and the targete tribe can either convert him to their side or execute him.

Also a good idea (perhaps "raid(er)" is a better name for it?), but then there should also be a way to fend off such an attack.
 
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Pat Connolly
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holgerd wrote:
patcon wrote:
Calling him a "smuggler" gave me another idea - a "thief". No skills of any kind, except you can use him to try to steal a tool from another tribe's discard pile. He picks a card at random from the targeted tribe's discard pile - if it's a tool or junk he brings it back to your discard pile; if it's a person he is captured and the targete tribe can either convert him to their side or execute him.

Also a good idea (perhaps "raid(er)" is a better name for it?), but then there should also be a way to fend off such an attack.

The risk of the theft is being 'discovered' by a person and being killed or subverted. It's a big risk/reward situation to use a thief. Maybe the thief should have the skills of a refugee, so a person with a thief could be used for more mundane tasks if a theft attempt doesn't seem worth the risk.
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Robert K Gabhart
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patcon wrote:
gabhart wrote:
**One more thing**
The up-coming Deception expansion includes Smugglers. With this merc you can fish up to two cards out of your discard and place them on top of your deck. :-D

I like this idea, but don't understand why it would be a "smuggler" who does this. In my mind the reason used cards go to the discard pile is that people are tired and need to rest and tools need to be fixed. What about a tool (energy drink) that lets you refresh people from the discard to the draw and a person (mechanic) who lets you refurbish tools from the discard to the draw?
Calling him a "smuggler" gave me another idea - a "thief". No skills of any kind, except you can use him to try to steal a tool from another tribe's discard pile. He picks a card at random from the targeted tribe's discard pile - if it's a tool or junk he brings it back to your discard pile; if it's a person he is captured and the targete tribe can either convert him to their side or execute him.


Fair point. Thinking about it more, how does "Drill Sergeant" sit with you? Same capability (2 cards from discard go to top of deck). The drill sergeant motivates and harasses tribe members and coordinates tools to line them up for the next assignment.
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sammmmmy195 wrote:
Thunderous_Genius wrote:
sammmmmy195 wrote:
About half way through the game I bought my first Saboteur, which I was quite excited about using, but then because my deck was already so big it didn't come out for the whole of the rest of the game.


This sounds to me like you might have been playing incorrectly. Were you aware that you can only do a hire action once per turn?


Yes. I'm almost certain I got all the rules correct. I think I will just try again and see how my opinion changes.


I've found that deck builders unique amongst cards games in how long it takes to appreciate proper (i.e. efficient) play. It's like your first time at a buffet -- you want to try everything, yet the varying flavors clash on the plate.

I'll be the last person to say this game is perfect, but I had the same issue with Rune Age last night -- it takes time to really appreciate the nuance of cards, their interactions and how to run a deck efficiently.
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