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Hurtgen: Hell's Forest» Forums » Rules

Subject: Rule 6.1.4 Eng & AT Unit Special Stacking Question rss

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Peter
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Gunny1 wrote:
Allied Stacking allows the addition of an AT or Eng Company to be treated as part of a Battalion. Is that AT or Eng Co. counted in the example listed under rule 6.1.4?


Hi Joey,

Not sure what you mean, you can have the following units in CT terrain hex:

Battalion + AT/Eng Coy (Any)

There is no required relationship between AT/Eng Coy and the Battalion. If I can, I will of course put all units from the same formation in one hex.

Peter
 
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Peter
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Gunny1 wrote:
JG53_Jaguar wrote:
Gunny1 wrote:
Allied Stacking allows the addition of an AT or Eng Company to be treated as part of a Battalion. Is that AT or Eng Co. counted in the example listed under rule 6.1.4?


Hi Joey,

Not sure what you mean, you can have the following units in CT terrain hex:

Battalion + AT/Eng Coy (Any)

There is no required relationship between AT/Eng Coy and the Battalion. If I can, I will of course put all units from the same formation in one hex.

Peter


H:HF GOSS Rule 6.1.4 states that an AT or Eng Co can be counted as part of a Battalion and as a result not actually exist outside that Bn's unit (counter). However, the Example therein lists an AT & Eng Co as part of the stacking allowances for ANY and all terrain. Is the AT & Eng Co's listed in the example the "invisible" AT & Eng Co's or in addition to them?


Ok I see what you are asking, from my point of view the AT Coy or Eng Coy stacked with BTN count towards stacking limit and you cannot have additional AT Coy or Eng Coy.

Funny, I just checked AW rules and there is an error/typo , in the 6.1.4, 13.10.2d rule is mentioned...however there is no 13.10.2d rule in AW. I think 13.10.2d really should be 13.10.2c.

Peter


 
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Anders Quist
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JG53_Jaguar wrote:
Ok I see what you are asking, from my point of view the AT Coy or Eng Coy stacked with BTN count towards stacking limit and you cannot have additional AT Coy or Eng Coy.


Maybe we're saying the same thing but my interpretation is that the allied side could have the following in a CT hex:
- one battalion (or smaller)
- if there is a battalion sized unit in the stack then either an AT coy or an Eng coy can stack for free (in accordance to 6.1.4, an integral part of the battalion)
- one unit of any size less than a battalion (this might be another Eng coy or an AT coy)
- one Z-step unit

This makes it possible to have a battalion + an AT or Eng coy + an AT or Eng coy in a CT hex.
 
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Peter
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andqui wrote:
JG53_Jaguar wrote:
Ok I see what you are asking, from my point of view the AT Coy or Eng Coy stacked with BTN count towards stacking limit and you cannot have additional AT Coy or Eng Coy.


Maybe we're saying the same thing but my interpretation is that the allied side could have the following in a CT hex:
- one battalion (or smaller)
- if there is a battalion sized unit in the stack then either an AT coy or an Eng coy can stack for free (in accordance to 6.1.4, an integral part of the battalion)
- one unit of any size less than a battalion (this might be another Eng coy or an AT coy)
- one Z-step unit

This makes it possible to have a battalion + an AT or Eng coy + an AT or Eng coy in a CT hex.


Yes, correct!
 
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Anders Quist
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Are you referring to the newer GOSS rule accompanying AWII? If not, which rule section/example did you mean? I am afraid I haven't caught the exact one you are referring to.


In the older (GOSS System_V9F.pdf) I think it is pretty clear (from the example starting on p13 and ending on p14):

Quote:

Maximum stacking in Constricted terrain
...
Allied
Any Battalion sized unit + any, 1 AT or Eng coy [that is a choice of either or none]
Any unit smaller than a battalion
1 zero step unit
Max of four units


 
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Joseph Youst
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Anders is correct. the one Eng or AT co that can stack for free with the Bn (or multistep Hybrid unit) does not count against stacking limits - it's for free.
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Peter
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Ok, I'm happy to be wrong...which means I will play with the correct rules but I just want a clarification:

The AW rulebook clearly says:

Constricted Terrain (Allied):

Any BTN + 1 AT/TD or Eng Coy
Any Non-BTN + 1 AT/TD or Eng Coy
1 Zero Unit


If above is not correct, should it be this?:

Any BTN + (FREE: 1 AT/TD or Eng Coy) + 1 AT/TD or Eng Coy
Any Non-BTN + (FREE: 1 AT/TD or Eng Coy) + 1 AT/TD or Eng Coy
1 Zero Unit


Which one is correct?

Thanks!

Peter

PS: A stacking chart PDF would be great player to have.
 
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Anders Quist
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Based on the older GOSS rules and Joe's statement I would say that the following is correct:
JG53_Jaguar wrote:

Constricted Terrain (Allied):

Any BTN + 1 AT/TD or Eng Coy (this is the free or invisible unit if you like)
Any Non-BTN + or 1 AT/TD or Eng Coy (or it can be something else but just not another bn)
1 Zero Unit


Take at look at 6.1.0 (old rules). I think it makes it very clear:
The stacking limit in most hexes is three units,
two of which may be battalions. In constricted
terrain hexes, the limit is two units, with a maximum
of one battalion.

6.1.2, 6.1.3 and 6.1.4 or in this case is only an conditional exception to this.

I am pretty sure the AW rules (that I don't have access to and have not seen yet) have changed any of this as it would most likely affect WaR2 and Hurtgen in an unforeseeable way. That is my opinion of course.
 
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Anders Quist
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Gunny1 wrote:
Clear as mud and I'm certain stacking isn't 3 units. This is why most players shy away from this series. Hell we can't even get past the stacking rules and Joe's answer wasn't any better! Very frustrating! A lot of wasted money, time and effort put into a series that is about as clear as mud and I grow weary of it. Seems every step I go through in the Sequence of play there are a million questions and mass confusion on each if a person can get an answer.
soblue


Don't give up! I'm looking forward to follow your example of play.

Shoot any question you've got and I try to the best of my knowledge and answer them and the ones I can't answer we'll solve together. I'm sure you wont be disappointed once you get thru. I really think this is a great system!
 
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Peter
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Gunny1 wrote:
"The one Eng or AT co that can stack for free with the Bn (or multistep Hybrid unit) does not count against stacking limits - it's for free."

Joe,

Thank you for responding. I just want to be very clear here as many things are dependant upon understanding this rule accurately.

Q: Players can add these, "FREE," units in addition to what is printed in the stacking rules?

Anders,

It's difficult to put together an example of play, when so many BASIC questions hamper the way.
Unfortunatelly there is a condition that plagues so many, that of thinking everyone should be as familiar with GOSS like if it was a penny.
When the rules are as clear as a muddy pond, it behooves those that wrote them to accurately respond.
Until they do we will just hang around and wonder what it would be like to play this fifty pounder.


Here is how I'm going to play it until either A) Updated PDF rules are posted or B) Joe specifically updates the stacking rule clearly in his post.

The 6.1.6 says "The below list shows the maximum number of units allowed by stacking rules in normal and constricted terrain." (Here is German normal terrain example from the book):

Any BTN + 1 AT/TD or Eng Coy +1 AFV Coy
Any BTN + 1 AT/TD or Eng Coy +1 AFV Coy
Any Non-BTN or Eng Coy
2 Zero Unit
Max of 9 units

I don't see anything here about FREE units in addition what is already listed above. So as far as I'm concerned I'm going to be placing German units in non Constricted Terrain as stated above..... THE END.

As I'm learning the system and when I'm be more comfortable with the rules I can start looking into the issues like stacking and try to wonder what Joe actually meant to say. However I only have so much free time, if I have to worry too much about everything in the rulebook I will never be able to enjoy the game...and I believe there is a great game here...just could have used a a bit more proof reading time to polish the rulebook a bit more. This is not a system that one can play competitively like say ASL for example (my point of view only of course), this is a system that one can perhaps use to study history....which is what my purpose is with the system.

Otherwise I will go crazy about the rules, example 6.1.0 at the end says "See 6.1.7 & 6.1.8..." well guess what there is no 6.1.8 in the rulebook!!! Another example, 6.1.4 talks about "13.10.2d rule", there is no 13.10.2d in the rulebook. However I believe 13.10.2d is actually suppose to be 13.10.2c. From my point of view every rule reference by a number needs to be reviewed.

Hopefully, Joe is tracking these issues and will update the rulebook in the near future, but this won't stop me from enjoying the game.

Cheers!

Peter
 
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Peter
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Gunny1 wrote:
Peter,

Please see 6.1.4:

"For each Bn-sized or two step hybrid unit in a hex, one (single step) Eng/Pio Co or AT Co may stack for free."

There is your free unit(s).


Yes, I see that but 6.1.6 does not reflect that... where it says Maximum of 9 units...so if you do 6.1.4 then you will be over 9 units...then what ?
 
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Anders Quist
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Guys,

Please go back and have a look in the old rules (GOSS System_V9F.pdf) and read the relevant paragrafs there. I think it is rather safe to assume that the stacking rules has not changed and the examples are very straight forward (except for an error illustrating the maximum German stacking in normal terrain saying that it is seven when it should be nine).

Excerpts from GOSS System_V9F.pdf (a little edited for clearness):

Quote:

6.1.4 Engineer & AT Unit Special Stacking

For each battalion-sized unit in a hex, one (single
step) engineer company or AT company may
always stack for free
and is considered part of
that battalion; the two units are treated as a
single unit for all purposes (including maximum
step loss; see 13.7.2c.) as long as they remain
stacked together. When moving, use the MA of
the slowest unit. ...


And followed by the examples:

Quote:

Maximum stacking in normal terrain
...
Allied
Any battalion sized unit + any, 1 AT or Eng coy
Any battalion sized unit + any, 1 AT or Eng coy
Any unit smaller than a battalion
2 zero step units
Max of seven units

Maximum stacking in Constricted terrain
...
Allied
Any Battalion sized unit + any, 1 AT or Eng coy
Any unit smaller than a battalion
1 zero step unit
Max of four units


If the latest GOSS rules says any different or is unclear in any way I'm quite sure they are wrong.
 
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Anders Quist
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Gunny1 wrote:
...and there lies the dilemma. I think Joe stated you get the "Free" units in addition to the stacking limit when he stated, "The one Eng or AT co that can stack for free with the Bn (or multistep Hybrid unit) does not count against stacking limits - it's for free." but I'd just like to know for certain as that seems like a lot of units in a hex.


But the basic stacking limit in normal terrain is three units of which only two may be battalion-sized and in constricted terrain the basic stacking limit is only two units with a maximum one battalion-sized unit. This is the base rule for stacking in a hex and 6.1.2, 6.1.3, 6.1.4 (Gv9) is in addition to this, hence for free.

I think you are over-analysing this...

And examples are just examples and not the rule.
 
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Anders Quist
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Sorry. soblue

I'm afraid I'm not coming thru or I'm unclear or muddy but I tried to explain it as best as I could. It really is a very simple rule but in someway it is put into words in a way that makes it inaccessible I guess and I'll think I will leave it at that.
 
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Joseph Youst
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I am following this disc. your above list (shown below), is correct. It's an issue of semantics.

Any BTN + 1 AT/TD or Eng Coy +1 AFV Coy
Any BTN + 1 AT/TD or Eng Coy +1 AFV Coy
Any Non-BTN or Eng Coy
2 Zero Unit
Max of 9 units


JY: in the third line above, you complicate things by mentioning the Eng Coy separately after "Any Non-Btn" - the Eng Coy is a Non-Btn so no need to add "or Eng Coy" in the third line. The "free" unit is either the AT/TD unit or Eng Coy stacked with each of the two Btns in lines 1 and 2 above. Yes, a max of 9 units for Germans in non-Constrict Terrain (and a max of seven for allied stacks- because AFV coys don't stack like German AFVs Coys)

In Constrct Terrain, you just remove line 2 and one of the Zero units, giving you a max of five units for Germans and four units for allies in that kind of terrain.

One thing I'm gonna do in the next few weeks is create divisional holding cards that have boxes for all the bns in a division, which will allow players to keep only a particular bn on the map and put the rest of the units in that stack on the div card in the same box as that bn. Relieves counter clutter and adds more fog of war effect.
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Peter
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Ok cool thanks Joe for clearing things up!

So 6.1.6 is correct, however I made a mistake in the 3rd line as Joe mentions above (sorry, I was too tired on Friday evening from work). I should have written:

Any BTN + 1 AT/TD or Eng Coy +1 AFV Coy
Any BTN + 1 AT/TD or Eng Coy +1 AFV Coy
Any Non-BTN + AFV Coy
2 Zero Unit
Max of 9 units

As Joe mentioned above the 3rd line is basically Any Non-BTN = 1 AT/TD or Eng Coy

In which case I'm ok with the way the rulebook is now, no need to change. It doesn't violate 6.1.6.
 
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