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Subject: Kickstarter Edition vs Retail Edition - What's the difference? rss

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I know that Alien Uprising doesn't have any exclusives, but at the same time I was wondering what are the differences between the two "purchase channels". What in the end were the Kickstarter extras and how do the extra miniatures contribute towards the overall experience? Now Funagain has opened their pre-order system and firstly I did a price comparison for the Kickstarter.

Alien Uprising (base game):
- Kickstarter price: $45-$50
- Pre-order price: $55.99
- MSRP: $69.99

Alien Uprising: Zothren Expansion
- Kickstarter price (including base game): $80-$90
- Pre-order price: $27.99 (without base game), $83,98 (with base game)
- MSRP: $34.99 (without base game), $104,98 (with base game)

Pre-order description says the expansion features 9 Slashers, 2 Tunnelers, 2 Brutes, 2 Scouts, 2 Archers, 2 Scavengers, 2 Champions, 2 Leaders, a brand new scenario and Wound tokens.

Kickstarter declares that Zothren Expansion includes: 5 reference cards, and 18 Zothren Slasher Miniatures to use with your copy of Alien Uprising (instead of using the standard tokens). Later update #48 states that due to a slight change Kickstarter edition of Zothern Expansion (list contains unlocked free miniatures stretchgoals) would have “18 Slashers, 5 Archers, 5 Champions, 5 Brutes, 5 Tunnelers, 5 Scavengers, 5 Scouts and a Leader”.

Questions: As retail Zothren has 2 Leaders, would I get 1, 2 or 3 Leader miniatures as a Kickstarter backer? If the answer is 3, was there a point of purchasing Leader add-on at all? Overall a full list of contents would be nice to check that I get everything I should when the package arrives. A chart about Kickstarter edition VS retail edition would be appreciated. This might be a good topic for a Kickstarter update.

Alien Uprising: Rex Nova Expansion
- Kickstarter price: $12.00
- Pre-order price: $11.99
- MSRP: $14.99

Alien Uprising: Crewman Expansion
- Kickstarter price: $24
- Pre-order price: $19.99
- MSRP: $24.99

I know it was difficult to estimate the MSRP. Estimation for this wasn't that close to planned 20-25% backer discount as MSRP was lower than expected of $30-$35.

Alien Uprising: X-14 Expansion
- Kickstarter price: $10.00
- Pre-order price: $11.99
- MSRP: $14.99

Other expansions like Cliff Crash map and Leaders are not currently available for pre-ordering.
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Andrew Shegda
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$46.49 Pre-order price btw

http://www.coolstuffinc.com/p/205320
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Those pre-order prices seem to be much better and clearly beat Kickstarter prices (as an international backer I of course wouldn't benefit them due to shipping). Here are CoolStuffInc pre-order prices:

* Alien Uprising: $46.49
* Alien Uprising: Zothren Expansion $23.49 (without base game), $69,98 (with the base game)
The description says: “Alien Uprising: Zothren Expansion contains 49 miniatures - eighteen slashers, five tunnelers, five scouts, five brutes, five archers, five scavengers, five champions, and one leader - that can replace the enemy tokens included in the Alien Uprising base game. In addition, this expansion contains damage tokens, hives, special tokens, and a new scenario - the very difficult Bug Hunt.”. Which confuses me a little to ask "Did Kickstarter backers get any bonus content compared to pre-ordering?"
* Alien Uprising: Crewman Expansion $16.49
* Alien Uprising: X14 Expansion $9.99
Other expansions not currently offered. Didn't check how much CoolStuffInc charges postage. If I saw right, Funagain US shipping is free if value of the order exceeds $80.
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sean brown

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Hi Everyone,

There seems to be some confusion based on online descriptions and MSRP's for Alien Uprising. This is very understandable since we are still over a month away from the retail release of the game, and I suspect lots of those listings are dated and will change. We will continue to work with shops to correct these listings, and are sorry for any confusion it may have caused anyone.

I wanted to take a moment to thank all the folks who have helped us in our journey of getting Alien Uprising to the market place. The process has been difficult, but rewarding. Along the way, we have had the fortune of being picked up by a number of retail shops, and are very thankful for this!

Mr. B. Games has been around for a few years now, but 2014 is really the first time our products will be readily available in Retail, thanks to all the kind folks at Kickstarter, who helping me re-launch the company. While going to retail is exciting, it also has many challenges like MSRP, discounting, and availability.

The topic of price always comes up when a new game enters the market. I personally think it does not always tell the tale properly to only compare price when looking at a game (or any item for that matter) and that we should instead take a look at a products value.

It is difficult to compare value without looking at some of the factors that go into value. I personally feel that price alone is not the only factor to value, so I decided to put together a little list of just a few things to possibly consider. This is of course, just my opinion, but it might be worth the read. Please feel free to skip down to the price section if you wish. I won't be offended. Well, maybe a little...

The single biggest factor that needs to be stated is, this game would not exist without the kickstarter backers. That is a HUGE value that should not be missed. There would be no retail version to have this discussion without kickstarter, but thanks to the amazing backers, there is, and we do, so lets take a closer look at more values:

In my opinion, we have 2 different places one might be able to buy a retail product. A Brick and Mortar Shop and an Online Shop:

Brick and Mortar Shops: Tend to sell games at full MSRP but sometimes have punch cards or game night deals and discounts. No shipping costs are involved, and they typically can teach you the game and offer space to play the game. There are exceptions here, but generally speaking, this is typical of a B&M.

Online Shops: Have been around for a long time now, and typically offer discounts of 10-30% off of MSRP but generally do not offer free shipping unless a large minimum is met. There are always exceptions to the rules, but generally speaking, this is pretty true for most of them.

There are so many opinions of Online Shops and B&M Shops. My intent here is not to debate the differences, but to simply provide a basis for comparison based on typical findings and definitions.

Learning a game in person has value. Supporting a new business has value. Having a voice in the creation process of a game has value. Customer service has value. Perhaps you only buy games from B&M store "x" even though online store "y" is cheaper. It all comes down to your perception of value. My intent is not to define value, just to make aware that price is not the only factor to consider when looking for value.

Now that you all are probably bored to tears, here is a list of MSRP's, Discounts and differences between editions for Alien Uprising:

The Alien Uprising Core Game MSRP is $69.99.

Kickstarter Version: Backers received a 36% discount off MSRP. Free shipping in the USA, and customs friendly shipping elsewhere. Same contents as Retail Version.

Retail Version: 0-30% discount off MSRP depending on where you shop. If buying online, discount may be higher, but shipping is needed. Same contents as Kickstarter Version

The Zothren Expansion is MSRP $34.99.

Kickstarter version: Backers received a 36-40% discount off MSRP depending on the pledge level they chose. Free shipping in the USA, and customs friendly shipping elsewhere. 48 minis (if folks opted for the leaders add-on, it brings the count to 53!)Basically for them, it is like having 2 copies of the Retail Expansion and a few extra minis. Same scenario and tokens as the Retail Version.

Retail version: 0-30% discount off MSRP depending on where you shop. If buying online, discount may be higher, but shipping is needed. 23 minis. Same scenario and tokens as Kickstarter Version.

The X-14 Expansion is MSRP $14.99.

Kickstarter Version: Backers received a 33% discount off MSRP. Free shipping in the USA, and customs friendly shipping elsewhere. Same version as Retail Version.

Retail Version: 0-30% discount off MSRP depending on where you shop. If buying online, discount may be higher, but shipping is needed. Same version as Kickstarter Version.

The Rex Nova is MSRP $14.99.

Kickstarter Version: Backers received a 33% discount off MSRP. Free shipping in the USA, and customs friendly shipping elsewhere. Same version as Retail Version.

Retail Version: 0-30% discount off MSRP depending on where you shop. If buying online, discount may be higher, but shipping is needed. Same version as Kickstarter Version but limited availability early on.

The Crewman Expansion is MSRP $24.99.

Kickstarter Version: Backers received a 5% discount off MSRP and early access to the expansion. Free shipping in the USA, and customs friendly shipping elsewhere. Same version as Retail Version.

Retail Version: 0-30% discount off MSRP depending on where you shop. If buying online, discount may be higher, but shipping is needed. Same version as Kickstarter Version but limited availability early on.

There are a handful of items that were offered during the campaign that are not being sold at Retail due to a small remaining supply. They are not exclusives, and they might be released at retail in the future or in a expansion box, but as of right now they are not available so we did not mention them in the list. Those items are:

Cliff Crash Map, Wrenches, Batteries, and Power Crystals.

Some of these leftover items will be used as promotional items, and sold at shows like Gencon and BGG.con directly from Mr. B. Games.

I hope this helps clear up some of the questions about Alien Uprising and perhaps gives some input on value as well!

Thanks to everyone who reads this for taking the time to do so, and thanks for your interest in Alien Uprising! We are very excited for its future!

Sean Brown
President, Mr. B. Games







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Thank you for the detailed answer and sorry to put you on a "tough spot". On the other hand, good that the shop description on CoolStuffInc has now been corrected.

A small correction to your answer is that Kickstarter Zothren actually has 49 miniatures. With Leaders add-on (=4 more leaders), the total comes to 53. If shop descriptions are now correct, an interesting detail is that the retail Zothren box has 2 leaders, but Zothren box delivered to Kickstarter backers has one. This doesn't really matter as add-on gives 4 leaders which is a required maximum to replace the tokens.
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What, did I miss an update? The KS page states that certain mini's would NOT be included in the retail edition of the Zothren expansion. Also little things, like the rescue ship mini were for KS backers and not included in retail.

Did this change?

What about the dog? Is that now in the retail version?

One of the things that brings on Kickstarter fatigue is the constant bait and switch. We get told one thing during a campaign that makes us cough up extra money, than it turns out things have changed and things aren't that much different at retail.

We talk about value, well there is a value to an interest free loan.

So let's look at my costs if I kept my money and bought at retail.

CSI Prices:

Core Box 46.5
Expansion 23.5
X-14 10

So if I grab 2 expansions to have a close to KS amount of mini's (I only need enough mini's to play, I'm not interested in having 'extras' taking up space in a box), my total is 103.5 (I get free shipping at this point). I went all in at 125. So I paid 21.5 for the hard level map, some wrench tokens, battery tokens and crystals. The map was the only thing I was interested in. I was blah on the wrenches, batteries and crystals. I went all in for X-14, the leaders and the board. The cost was nearing the all in price so I just went for it.

At this point it looks like the better value is at retail.

Jorune
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^They had to change the contents of Zothren Expansion. It's mentioned in update #48, but the idea may not come directly clear how the change effects on retail Zothren. Ultimatelly I think the change is better for consumers and I do not have anything against it (except maybe the fact I get 1 extra Leader that is not useful as 4 is max instead of 5 I receive, a minor thing for me.). I would have been disappointed if all the extra Zothren miniatures were offered for free to everyone. Checking the same update #48, F1D0 is apparently included in the retail version of core game. And probably Ship and Egg too. Logistic reasons?

Kickstarter is always a double-edged sword. Promises are not always delivered as-is (we had also one miniature sculpt change during the process). Overall, I think I am happy with the results when I receive the package. But being an international backer, the discounts based on MSRP is not that important to me. Local shops convert $ -> € based on MSRP.


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Well I am very disappointed. I would rather have bought at retail where instead of getting the extra map, wrenches, batteries and crystals, I could have gotten the crew member mini's and saved $5 in the process.

Jorune

EDIT: and I am now rereading my post from the KS Exclusives thread here in the Alien Uprising general forum. Boy do I look like an idiot now.
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sean brown

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Hi Jorune,

Thanks for the post, but you look like a concerned fan is all, not an "idiot" at all. I would be upset or frustrated too if I though my pledge was not as cool as I thought it was. Hopefully you, and other backers do feel it is better than they though now though!

My intention was never to upset backers, and we stayed as true to the project as we possibly could, but due to some logistical reasons (in the updates) we had to make a few changes to print everything properly.

I tried as hard as possible to make Alien Uprising a great deal for everyone, but never lost sight of the fact that without the backers, the game would not exist, and 100% took it into account when setting everything in place. Backers all got an awesome deal from MSRP.

We cannot control discounts online, so you never know what deals might be found out there once it is released in late August (backers copies are shipping next week), but I stand behind the deal we offered, and feel it was very good for backers and we thank each and every one of them for their support in helping us get this game to market.

Sean
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D. Thompson
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I definitely don't feel cool dropping the additional money on the add-ons.
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The Game Steward
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I went back and looked at the KS, and despite my best efforts to find the info myself, I still have questions:

1. In reviewing the front page, all of the applicable stretch goals state explicitly and emphatically that the additional minis (Tunnelers, Scouts, Etc.) will NOT be included in the retail version of the Zothren Expansion. (Emphasis in original KS stretch goals). Where is the update that indicates that the retail copy of the Zothren Expansion will include copies of these extra sculpts after all?

2. Will (did?) KS backers get the four extra scenarios identified in the $35k and $65k stretch goals? As with the miniatures, the KS front page states emphatically that these scenarios will NOT be included in the Core game or Zothren expansion.

3. Are the rescue ship, gestation egg, and F1do minis included in the retail version of the game? As with the miniatures and the extra scenarios, the KS front page states emphatically (at least with respect to rescue ship and F1do) that these items will NOT be included in the Core game or Zothren Expansion.

I should state that, as a general matter, I am completely on board with a project not having KS Exclusives. As long as creators are up front, they should be free to offer them or not. Sean was always very clear that all of these items might be made available at retail in some other manner. And that's cool.

However, I'm also in favor of creators following through on their stated promises with respect to the rewards they offer for KS backers. If a deadline isn't met, that's fine. But in this case, at least, the KS front page is explicit that many of the stretch goals would NOT be included in the retail copies of the Core game or Zothren expansion. So to find out that the stretch goal sculpts are now included in the Zothren expansion after all is quite disappointing, to say the least.

With regard to the extra scenarios and additional minis, I couldn't find out what the story is, so if anyone (sean?) can point me in the right direction, I'd greatly appreciate it.

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sean brown

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Hey Dark,

Sorry your upset. shoot me a geekmail and I will give you my number and we can chat about it.

For sure do not want folks upset.

Michael,

We said that unlocked goals would not be exclusive, and that they would be available later at retail for a fee, but free to backers.

When making the production of the game, it was challenging to put some things in 1 version of a box, and leave some out on others, so we increased MSRP of the Core Game by $10 to stay true to our word.

This resulted in backers getting a bigger discount off of MSRP as well, so we thought it was a win win. I hope this makes sense, and please do not hesitate to Geekmail me if you would like to discuss this with me.

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onekccs wrote:
Hi Jorune,

Hopefully you, and other backers do feel it is better than they though now though!


This is my point, I don't.

onekccs wrote:
My intention was never to upset backers, and we stayed as true to the project as we possibly could, but due to some logistical reasons (in the updates) we had to make a few changes to print everything properly.


Whenever this happens in a stonemaiergames.com campaign (Viticulture), he tends to poll backers first. He has never just sprung stuff onto us.

onekccs wrote:
I tried as hard as possible to make Alien Uprising a great deal for everyone, but never lost sight of the fact that without the backers, the game would not exist, and 100% took it into account when setting everything in place. Backers all got an awesome deal from MSRP.


I understand that publishers like to quote MSRP, but that's ignoring the elephant in the room, or let's just say the reality of the marketplace.

The reality is that a majority of brick and mortar stores make their money from the CCG crowd, not boardgames. Online stores can make a profit by selling in bulk. To realize those sales, however, they recognize the need to sell at a discount. Your typical gamer can acquire a typical game at 30-33% off.

This is a fact of the marketplace. This fact should never be ignored by publishers, especially those looking for an interest free loan by going the kickstarter route. Your clientele/customers are VERY aware of online discounts. Whether they choose to take advantage of this discount is up to them (if I had a local game shop I WOULD purchase SOME of my gaming needs from them, at MSRP. Even so, I am STILL aware that a discount on a game is available to me).

Now, we talk about an $80 pledge level for the base game and the expansion. We forget that some of us DID pay for the leaders add-on, that is now part of the retail expansion pack.

Now, as backers we THOUGHT we were getting as extras over retail version of the core box:

4 scenarios
rescue ship mini
gestation egg
Fido dog mini


For the expansion:

4 tunnelers
4 scouts
4 brutes
5 archers
4 scavengers
5 champions

Now at retail they get leaders. I had to pay extra for that, $10.

So I paid $90. At RETAIL, looking at Cool Stuff Inc., I pay $93.5.

Now since we will start debating shipping, let's just include X-14, $10 at both the KS and CSI: $103.5 I now get free shipping at CSI. I have saved a whopping $3.50 buying going the KS route, plus I'll get it 3 weeks earlier than retail.

What perks would I have gotten by waiting for CSI?

I keep my money and don't have to take a chance on the KS. I pay $3.50 more (I actually have a 3% discount as a customer reward from CSI, so in MY PARTICULAR case, I am paying the same amount). I DO NOT get to read reviews from people. I do not get to find out if there are component issues, etc.

I believe I was one of the early Alien Uprising posters who asked for clarification on what stretch goals would be in retail and which would not. This is what we see on some of the SG's:

This is a FREE expansion for Kickstarter backers (Crewmen and above), that will NOT be part of the Core Game or Zothren Expansion.

The fact that 10 of 16 SG's had this in them and they are not is disappointing.

Now, for those readying to argue what KS is:

People can debate what kickstarter is TO THEM, but their is NOTHING on kickstarter that says if I pledge I MUST adhere to some philosophy of what KS is or isn't. The fact is I don't.

Does that mean I shouldn't be using kickstarter? That's my point. It's kickstarters like this one that are waking me up to that idea. I'm sure I'm not the only one. The problem? Less kickstarted boardgames because of it. I will always back a stonemaiergames.com because they stick to what they promise their backers.

If you ask me for money and make certain 'statements' (for lack of a better word) on your KS page, but don't keep to them, how am I suppose to trust the information your next KS project? Now someone may say, "Hey Jorune, you need to understand that post KS things may need to change." That's fine. But than a KS project creator should be aware of this also and let us know. They should only state what they KNOW they will follow through on. Since their ARE KS project creators that do this, it is possible. And those are the one's who win my KS dollars.

Jorune

EDIT: Me and Mr. B just spent over an hour on the phone. He explained his position as a publisher. I explained my position as a customer. Obviously these will always be two differing viewpoints. However, we both sympathized with each others perspective. I know he did not intentionally mean to cause any ill will, it's just the issues of dealing with the logistics of miniatures (something that has even come to haunt Martin Wallace).

I appreciate the phone call.

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Tyrone ..................
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Well that sucks that we don't even get the promised 4 extra KS scenarios. I begrudgingly accept the rest. I did buy the Cliff map and all the add-ons so at least I'll have a little something special for a while.
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Andrew Shegda
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Can't we all be happy we're going to be able to play and enjoy the game?
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Jonathan Bailey-Jones
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Ok, reading the above I am feeling a little sick at my $179 pledge if nearly all is going to be available to buy, would have saved quite a bit waiting for it to appear in my friendly OLGS due to shipping!!!

Last project I back with such a heavy price tag and maybe last one from Mr B. (Never say never is my motto).

Jonathan
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sean brown

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@Tryone - The scenarios (5 included now, we threw in an extra one) are in the core set. Sorry I forgot to mention it.

@Jonathan - Sorry you feel sick. Please drop me an email or skype and we can discuss. My intention with this post was to inform not make anyone upset. I was trying to mention the differences. Did some discussion of them in some updates (changes that had to be made for production) and had to make some small changes, but I hope in the end everyone will be ok with what had to be done. To be clear, we never actually promised any exclusives in the campaign, and tried to be very clear of that. We did mention that unlocked goals would be available to others later for a fee, and we did raise MSRP of the core game to make true on that promise. It was a tough call. Put the extra items in a new box, and charge $10-12 for it, or put it in the box and raise MSRP. We chose the latter.

KS backers are getting twice as many minis. The Cliff Crash Map, Wrenches, Batteries and Crystals will not be at Retail this year, but might be part of a set in 2015.
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Could you please direct us to the update in question? I have read update #48 which I think is the one in question, but this only relates to what backers are getting, nothing about retail.

Jorune
 
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onekccs wrote:
@Tryone - The scenarios (5 included now, we threw in an extra one) are in the core set. Sorry I forgot to mention it.

@Jonathan - Sorry you feel sick. Please drop me an email or skype and we can discuss. My intention with this post was to inform not make anyone upset. I was trying to mention the differences. Did some discussion of them in some updates (changes that had to be made for production) and had to make some small changes, but I hope in the end everyone will be ok with what had to be done. To be clear, we never actually promised any exclusives in the campaign, and tried to be very clear of that. We did mention that unlocked goals would be available to others later for a fee, and we did raise MSRP of the core game to make true on that promise. It was a tough call. Put the extra items in a new box, and charge $10-12 for it, or put it in the box and raise MSRP. We chose the latter.

KS backers are getting twice as many minis. The Cliff Crash Map, Wrenches, Batteries and Crystals will not be at Retail this year, but might be part of a set in 2015.


Sean, I know that my frustration is two-fold. First, the lack of transparency of the process that led up to this point, and second, your apparent unwillingness to acknowledge the extent to which the changes you decided upon deviate from what was promised during the KS campaign.

Let me state that I am not bashing you, or second-guessing the hard choices you had to make in order to produce Alien Uprising. I can respect that you believe that every choice you made was ultimately the right one for Mr. B Games and Alien Uprising.

But that doesn't change the fact that you/Mr. B Games made very emphatic claims about KS Backer Stretch Goals. While you were explicit all along that nothing will be KS Exclusive, you were also explicit that the KS Backer Stretch Goals (with one exception) would NOT go into the core game or Zothren Expansion. It's disingenuous to fall back on the first point without fully acknowledging the second. Especially (in my mind) re: the "extra scenarios" - I really don't understand why that could not have been provided to KS backers only until published later (perhaps next year?), even as a digital download.

I'll send you a separate geek mail to address some specifics re: my circumstances, but I am posting this publicly because I think the concern I raise are shared by (some) others.
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sean brown

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For those who are still wanting more information about the changes, the update I reference in my responses was a backer only update, so not sure if this link will work or not, but here it is.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/532062403/alien-uprisin...

For those who were not backers and can't read it, in that update, I mention the dog/ship/egg going into the core game, as well as the changed up minis for The Zothren Expansion (and why I had to make the tough choices due to a production issue with molds).

I read each and every comment posted after that update, before I finalized the changes. I took the feedback left after that update as positive (from the 28 comments that followed -- the most we had ever got on an update), since none of them expressed frustration or disappointment. That update was almost 4 months ago, and since its posting folks seemed to not have minded the changes, or emailed me since, so I considered it a non-issue.

4 months later, on the eve of the games shipment to backers, there is not much more I can do or say, other than I am deeply sorry for those I have upset, and I am trying my best to keep everyone happy and put out the best product possible for everyone. I stand by what I had to do, and what I have posted and said throughout the campaign. Backers will get every item we unlocked and promised with the one substitution of 5 less slashers, replaced by 5 other Zothren poses in their place.

My intention is not to continue to fuel this debate, but to put it to rest and focus on the positives of the campaign and release of the game.

All we can do as a company who has used Kickstarter to make a game(or any other company who has for that matter) is try to offer the best product we can, at the best discount off of MSRP we can and hope folks find it enjoyable and fair enough to support. We cannot predict if retail will sell our games, and at what discount off MSRP they will sell them.

I understand a few folks might still be frustrated and feel like they could have just waited and got a similar deal at retail later and I sympathize with that, and wish I had a solution to this, but I simply cannot control what price folks choose to sell products online for, especially 10 months in advance. We are glad you did support us because if you didn't, we would not be having this discussion, as there would be no retail version at all, so please do not lose site of that fact!

I am truly sorry for any bad feelings or frustrations I have caused for anyone in this process and I hope folks will accept my deepest apology and know I am listening and will make sure in the future to be much clearer on descriptions via Kickstarter pages of any changes that might have to occur.

Sean Brown
President, Mr. B. Games
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In an effort to be fair and see the "other side" I did a comparison of 6 other games that kickstarted and then were sold online afterwords, and in every instance the online price was substantially cheaper than the KS prices offered. The lowest online price for Alien Uprising I saw is 30% off MSRP and that is not cheaper than our KS offer was. Ours was 33% on the Core set and almost 40% on the Combo.

Please remember too that online shops are not the only place in the USA selling games and what happens when the shops offering 30% off sell out of their couple of copies of the game? The price goes up, or it is marked out of stock or no longer available and you have to go elsewhere for a higher price. More power to them if this business model works for them but it should not be the value set for a game, especially when 99% of a games copies will be sold elsewhere at a lower discount. What is a fair representation? That is up to the consumer.

Some companies have tried to limit online discounts, with MAP pricing, but we simply are too small with only 2 titles to try and dictate to retail shops MAP pricing. For those who do not know what MAP pricing is, it stands for Minimum Advertised Price. It basically means a retail shop is not allowed to sell a MAP product at less than a 20% discount off MSRP. A great idea, in theory, that works well in the Auto and Video Game industry, but then again ,we are not GM or Microsoft!

When we started the project, there was know way of knowing it would be picked up at retail, let alone picked up and advertised for a discounted 30% off MSRP. Impossible for me to predict. Impossible for me to stop. Impossible for me or any other small company to compete with after their Kickstarters end many months later, but I do feel we tried our best, and did offer our product to KS backers at the best price available now and then.

I hope I have done my part to see both sides of the coin and offer some type of insight to the project. If you are someone who still feels strongly against the actions I have took, I encourage you to geekmail me and I would be happy to personally call or Skype you to show my sincerity and try to ease your frustrations.

Sean
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Shane Knerl
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I'm probably not in the majority here with my opinion, but here goes...

I feel like we were given plenty of perks on this KS. We got several extra minis, we got add-ons (who knows when they will get to market), and we get the game early. The biggest perk though... We got to help make this game, and from some of Sean's comments, the company, a reality.

Just my two cents. - SK
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There is no mention that the Scenarios, Rescue Ship mini or Gestation Egg mini are going into the core set. The closest we get to F1d0 is:

..maybe we will include it for FREE in the Core Game as part of Solo Play...


So nothing to say since nothing was revealed.

Now when you discuss the changes to the Zothren expansion, you centered on what BACKERS would get if they ordered it. There was no mention that the retail version had changed. I see now that may have been what you meant, but it was not clear.

I really don't think that update says what you feel it does.

Jorune
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Sean-

Which 6 did you look at?

Also it's not the issue that those games may have ended up cheaper in retail (without knowing which ones, I have no way to ascertain whether they included something above the retail versions), but it's the principle that we pledged with certain assurances and after the fact a 180 was done.

I've only been a part of 20+ KS projects and this is the first one that I am aware of that things took such a drastic change, nevermind also coming with little to no forewarning.

Jorune
 
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I have to say I'm fairly apathetic in most aspects of my life. I really didn't want to comment to be honest. Take my comments not as hasty or angry but please understand I am quite frustrated and upset with your decisions. The trend I saw develop has carried over into your other campaigns and I realized it later on.

onekccs wrote:
For those who were not backers and can't read it, in that update, I mention the dog/ship/egg going into the core game, as well as the changed up minis for The Zothren Expansion (and why I had to make the tough choices due to a production issue with molds).

I read each and every comment posted after that update, before I finalized the changes. I took the feedback left after that update as positive (from the 28 comments that followed -- the most we had ever got on an update), since none of them expressed frustration or disappointment. That update was almost 4 months ago, and since its posting folks seemed to not have minded the changes, or emailed me since, so I considered it a non-issue.


I would like to note that the tone of that entire update was specific to backers considering it was directed to us and hidden. Not once was retail changes mentioned in that update. The impression I got was adding 5 extra Slashers was problematic due to odd numbers so you'd instead be substituting out 5 other miniatures to even out mini numbers. Better for production, better for us, as we'd be getting plenty of Slashers as it is.

Within the Slashers section of the update you specifically mention that 'Backers will be getting a slightly different mix of minis...' again, no mention that these number changes were in fact to all copies including retail. Yes, backers are getting more minis but what was hammered throughout the funding campaign was, 'This is a FREE expansion for Kickstarter backers (Crewmen and above), that will NOT be included in the Core Game or Zothren Expansion.' Not exclusive, you made that quite clear, but would be available later for purchase.

onekccs wrote:
All we can do as a company who has used Kickstarter to make a game(or any other company who has for that matter) is try to offer the best product we can, at the best discount off of MSRP we can and hope folks find it enjoyable and fair enough to support. We cannot predict if retail will sell our games, and at what discount off MSRP they will sell them.


I have no doubt this is going to be a fantastic product. I had my own reservations about some of the minis and then a few updates later they were looking remarkable. Straight up, the $80-90 value seems spot on considering shipping was included. What started to deviate were the add-ons. You stated the MSRP for the crewmen expansion was to be $30-35 and available in limited quantities, sold at trade shows etc. $25 sounded like a good deal, in hindsight it was MSRP. The Zotheran and Tunneler expansions seemed to merge during update #48 giving a significant bolster to the retail product.

onekccs wrote:
I understand a few folks might still be frustrated and feel like they could have just waited and got a similar deal at retail later and I sympathize with that, and wish I had a solution to this, but I simply cannot control what price folks choose to sell products online for, especially 10 months in advance. We are glad you did support us because if you didn't, we would not be having this discussion, as there would be no retail version at all, so please do not lose site of that fact!


I don't feel this way for anything other than the expansion/add-ons. The value we were lead to believe was significantly altered, not by online discounts or changes to MSRP but because of your altering of overfunding goals and decisions to make a better retail product. In turn, you've snubbed out those people who did support you to make the game possible. Update #48 does not in any way state what you are making it out to be.
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