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Subject: The Pacific and Stalingrad rss

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bill jaffe
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we have been talking about the Pacific a bit more and are leaning towards the first set featuring the Marines with the Japanese.

i get that the Stalingrad questions need to be answered and i will see what we can do about speeding that up.

bill
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John Di Ponio
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Would be nice to see branching out to the Pacific.
 
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Michael McFall
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I think that is an excellent move. It should breath in new life and new fans into our corner.

The minor flaws in the rules can be fixed along the way and be made retroactive I am sure. I for one am satisfied with things just the way they are.
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Kristopher
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Yay, Marines! Yay, Japanese!

Boo, Boats and naval maneuvers.
 
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Hss Hss
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Cool

Looking forward to see how you descricbe the sides in the pasific.
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Terence Lee
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I really want to get into this game, so I've been waiting for the new 1A edition game to come out and will probably get the Stalingrad expansion along with it. Pacific expansion would be awesome!
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bill jaffe
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no naval stuff other than as cards

bill
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Hss Hss
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Yes, naval would be a completely other game.

However, for beach assault scenarios, do consider landingcraft, and some sea hexes before the beach. This way you will force the attacker to provoke MG fire every single time a unit enters the beach. And imagine also that not all troops arrives at the same time, and you will get a sense of haste...



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Kristopher
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skinsfan wrote:
no naval stuff other than as cards

bill


Hot dog! I might be in on this one, then. BONZAI!
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bill jaffe
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i may do landing craft but i'm thinking counters rather than plastic mini's

i have to tell you the Pacific is not an easy one to tackle but so far the research has been findable

bill
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clive holland
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There are some good You Tube documentaries on the Pacific.
 
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Kandras 78
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skinsfan wrote:
i may do landing craft but i'm thinking counters rather than plastic mini's


LCVPs and LVTs are a must IMHO. Also I would prefer miniatures over counters and do not mind if it cause some delay in the release.
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Willem Boersma
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Kandras78 wrote:
skinsfan wrote:
i may do landing craft but i'm thinking counters rather than plastic mini's


LCVPs and LVTs are a must IMHO. Also I would prefer miniatures over counters and do not mind if it cause some delay in the release.


I figure it's not a matter of time, but rather a matter of finance. Minaitures are more expensive to make, hence the price for the expansion would go up. However, I would gladly pay more to have minis over tokens...
 
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Hss Hss
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Yes, the problem with the pacific is that all it's different battlegrounds.
For example, it would have been fun with a few jungle scenarios. However that can hardly not be combined with anything due to totally different boards needed.


Minis will look good, but tokens may also work.
 
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clive holland
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Perhaps a poll could be conducted by 1A. Giving the cost of the game with tokens for landing craft and a cost for plastic figures. People could then vote for their choice.

Or, perhaps have tokens in the base game, but with a small expansion with plastic figures that could be bought if wanted.

Everyone says plastic figures are expensive to produce, but has anyone got an idea of what it actually cost to tool up for one particular figure type?

I see people like Perry Miniatures, The Plastic soldier company, Zvezda etc etc coming out with new ranges in plastic quite frequently, so for small companies perhaps it is not that expensive.

Another option is to buy in ready made products from a company already making landing craft in the right scale. Indeed this could be expanded for other items.

Another option would be resin landing craft, again 1A making them or buying them in. I think there are quite a few options to look into.

Of course I do realize that it is all down to expected sales, but some research could be done by 1A.
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Willem Boersma
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Grand Stone wrote:
Yes, the problem with the pacific is that all it's different battlegrounds.
For example, it would have been fun with a few jungle scenarios. However that can hardly not be combined with anything due to totally different boards needed.


Minis will look good, but tokens may also work.


A lot of it was actually jungle and mountain. So some maps with those features which could then be combined with maps from the base game, should already allow for a great possible variety in map configurations. I also believe 1A mentioned somewhere they're thinking of releasing a Pacific expansion depicting an Island which has to be taken by the Americans in a Campaign. Perhaps there will also be maps for Iwo Jima and Okinawa one day, which I believe are basically the only major battles that did not take part in jungle terrain, of course with the exception of city battles such as Manilla and Hong-Kong.
 
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Kristopher
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boersma8 wrote:
Grand Stone wrote:
Yes, the problem with the pacific is that all it's different battlegrounds.
For example, it would have been fun with a few jungle scenarios. However that can hardly not be combined with anything due to totally different boards needed.

Minis will look good, but tokens may also work.


A lot of it was actually jungle and mountain. So some maps with those features which could then be combined with maps from the base game, should already allow for a great possible variety in map configurations.



Could the problems of mountains and jungle be solved with map overlay pieces, instead of whole maps?

Or the problem with Landing Craft, just be solved without having Landing Craft? So the Infantry or Armour just "comes ashore?" Minis are great, but if the total use of them just entails getting a unit ashore, without any kind of naval maneuvering or complicated naval rules, seems like an unneeded expense. Tokens put on the back of units like the specialty unit markers signifying whether or not they are in the water sounds simpler.



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Willem Boersma
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Lhowser wrote:
boersma8 wrote:
Grand Stone wrote:
Yes, the problem with the pacific is that all it's different battlegrounds.
For example, it would have been fun with a few jungle scenarios. However that can hardly not be combined with anything due to totally different boards needed.

Minis will look good, but tokens may also work.


A lot of it was actually jungle and mountain. So some maps with those features which could then be combined with maps from the base game, should already allow for a great possible variety in map configurations.



Could the problems of mountains and jungle be solved with map overlay pieces, instead of whole maps?

Or the problem with Landing Craft, just be solved without having Landing Craft? So the Infantry or Armour just "comes ashore?" Minis are great, but if the total use of them just entails getting a unit ashore, without any kind of naval maneuvering or complicated naval rules, seems like an unneeded expense. Tokens put on the back of units like the specialty unit markers signifying whether or not they are in the water sounds simpler.





But then how would you handle an AT squad in the water, for instance?

I would like to be able to blow a landing craft out of the water, similar to a transport carrying troops that can be destroyed with the crew on board. It should also have some kind of open top special ability so that troops on board can still be pinned or disrupted (perhaps not routed; where would they go...). Therefore I'm hoping maps will contain a few hexes of sea too before the beach comes into play. This is what I missed in Normandy.

Overlays should go a long way I suppose. If saving on maps would allow for more vehicles and landing craft minis (could have those transport makers underneath them to show which squad(s) are aboard), I'd have nothing against it. Would still like to see a few new maps, no matter what (let's say 4 with the sea hexes and the shore I was just talking about), but perhaps indeed as far as the rest is concerned, available maps from the base game and Normandy could be used with overlay pieces. Then again, there may also be rice paddy hexes, Pacific style building hexes (visually the ones on the base game maps would look weird), and who knows what else 1A have in mind...
 
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bill jaffe
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see actually this discussion has already helped
the landing craft tokens would be like transport tokens and could easily be targeted making Amtracks is possible

the average plastic figure's expense comes from the mold which usually are in steel. prices have been between 4 and 5k per figure now that includes the design as well as making test samples but those prices are over a year old and as we know nothing gets cheaper.

using someone else mold might be possible but we would have to pay them for the use and likely pay every time we want to reprint the game

as for boards we can various basic boards easily and overlays are also fairly simple

bill
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Kristopher
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Quote:


But then how would you handle an AT squad in the water, for instance?

I would like to be able to blow a landing craft out of the water, similar to a transport carrying troops that can be destroyed with the crew on board. It should also have some kind of open top special ability so that troops on board can still be pinned or disrupted (perhaps not routed; where would they go...). Therefore I'm hoping maps will contain a few hexes of sea too before the beach comes into play. This is what I missed in Normandy.


How would you be able to have landing craft, with the ability to blow them out of the water, WITHOUT having a lot of naval rules? hmmm.

What if, instead of a whole new mapboard, it was a strip? Similar to the turn track strip? Like, a strip of maybe two or three hexes to place NEXT to whatever map board you would be using? That would give enough space to be able to blow the LCs out of the water, without having to deal with a whole lot of naval rules. And just make the LCs essentially trucks on the water.

I realize that's not perfect, but might be cheaper? Idk. (and I hadn't realized Normandy had no beaches. I would have thought Normandy = beaches.)


(this is fun just brainstorming things like this.)


edit: D'oh. I'm sorry. Normandy DOES have beaches - it just doesn't have the seashore. Me bad (just went to look at the pictures.)




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Willem Boersma
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[q="Lhowser"]
Quote:




How would you be able to have landing craft, with the ability to blow them out of the water, WITHOUT having a lot of naval rules? hmmm.

What if, instead of a whole new mapboard, it was a strip? Similar to the turn track strip? Like, a strip of maybe two or three hexes to place NEXT to whatever map board you would be using? That would give enough space to be able to blow the LCs out of the water, without having to deal with a whole lot of naval rules. And just make the LCs essentially trucks on the water.

I realize that's not perfect, but might be cheaper? Idk.




I don't think any naval rules would be required. Only some simple rules for "sea"terrain. I'm thinking of something like this:

Sea terrain is impassable for all units unless the unit's got the amphibious trait (new, but amtracks, LVT's etc. would get that one)and/or it's adjacent to a land/beach hex.

Units located in a sea hex adjacent to a land/beach hex can only move one hex.

For the remainder, I guess simply the existing transport rules could be used, with some small modifications here and there (e.g. squads may not disembark in a sea hex, unless it's adjacent to a land/beach hex. It must then immediately end its movement).

For visual effect, personally I'd really prefer an actual map. Just 3 or 4 should do, which still leaves the other side for different terrain. But indeed, perhaps 9 or even 12 new map boards aren't necessary; overlays and already available boards (base game and Normandy, perhaps even FoTB ones) could be combined with the new ones to form new battlefields. Reducing the number of new maps might give us an extra tank or two hopefully...

Finally, and perhaps that's entirely personal, one of the things that appeals to me most about TOI is the fact that so far it hasn't looked "cheap". I'll gladly pay a few tenners more (who'll remember that a few weeks later) to have the great quality in components that has characterized TOI to date than to have a cheap looking alternative.

But ineed, discussing such things is indeed fun and perhaps there's something in these posts 1A can use. perhaps they can even do a poll about certain things (.e.g. mainly new maps vs mainly overlays; say 4 additional maps or additional vehicle; amtrack minis or tokens (with price difference indication for total cost of expansion etc.)
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Hss Hss
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I agree that simple rules for water would be a very great bonus.

Movement cost of 4 for water tiles (1 for naval units), and a simple rule that units cannot fire or use any other action while in water would be very helpful.

Then you have a few nice bonuses:
1) you have to move your landing crafts all the way up to the beach before unloading them.

2) If the landing-crafts cannot move on land, exiting a boat would cost 2 points movement and then another 2 to enter the beach, which regularly ends its movement.

3) If the landing-crafts CAN move onto land, that would be a big boost. The infantry can then jump out on land. To do a fire & movement action or maybe find that single hex of cover.

4) If your troops come onto the beach in waves, the first to hit the beach should be used aggressively to silence the MG which otherwise will fire at every single infantry entering the beach.

5) You could also have all troops onto the board at the same time, but have them setup such that they will not all arrive at the beach at the same time.

6) If the enemy has an AT gun or two, or some luck with the MG guns firing at the landing-crafts in the water, and they go kaboom, it goes down with the infantry inside.
You could also add a rule that firing at an landing-craft could also trigger the event of forcing the enemy to swim ashore.
'If a vehicle is damaged in water but not destroyed, , on a 4+ all infantry inside are forced to exit the transporter and transport capacity is set to 0' Remember swimming ashore is SLOW, so this would be painful.

7) This would also allow for a simple 'amphibious specialization' which could for example reduce the cost of movement in water down to 2 and maybe reduce the movement cost of exiting vehicles down two 1. Meaning, an amphibious infantry with officer can exit the vehicle earlier and have more options.

8) Huge bonuses to the defender. Which in my eyes is a big boost. As things turn out, normally in ToI the forces are even with the attacker having only slightly more guns. Maybe this time the defender can be outnumbered 1 to 2 and still be balanced.

9) This will no doubt give the battle chaos and mayhem the beach landings deserve.


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Kristopher
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/OffTopic

(Okay, can I just once again boggle at the wonder that is the internet and BGG? That we got guys in The Netherlands, Thailand, Norway, Hungary, and the States all conversing and brainstorming about a great game we all enjoy? How frickin' cool is THAT?!)

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Stephen Harper
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Lhowser wrote:
/OffTopic

(Okay, can I just once again boggle at the wonder that is the internet and BGG? That we got guys in The Netherlands, Thailand, Norway, Hungary, and the States all conversing and brainstorming about a great game we all enjoy? How frickin' cool is THAT?!)



Not long ago I was conversing via a VASSAL game with one of my VASSAL buddies, Lukasz Grabun, who lives in Poland, and I took a moment to reflect on just how impossible this dialog would have seemed back in the middle 80's before the fall of the Berlin Wall. Truly incredible how such things have changed, no doubt in part made possible by the influence of the global Internet. And definitely I would not have electronically met Lukasz without BGG!

In regards to landing craft, I would vote for tokens rather than miniatures. Molds are indeed the major part of expense, and very costly. Doesn't seem worth it for the limited time landing craft would be used. I would much rather spend limited funds on molded pieces that would get more extended play. Just my 2 cents!
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bill jaffe
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well guys keep the ideas flowing

btw most of time the us out numbered the Japanese 3 or 4 to 1 when we invaded islands and we still had to take a lot of casualties clearing the islands.

just wait until you see what the Japanese fortifications can do to help them

bill
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