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Subject: Clarification on Upgrades and Augments rss

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Dante Gagne
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Hey folks, just played my first game yesterday and WOW, I love it. This is the kind of mini-based dungeon crawler, loot grabber game I had hoped it would be.

I do want to more or less assert something here and see if my understanding is correct with regards to gear, upgrades and augments.

An inventory card can have the "connectors" on four sides of the card, top, left, right or bottom. Here is my understanding, and I'd love if someone can point out something I might have gotten wrong.

If a card has a connector on the RIGHT side of the card, it is gear. If the card is burgundy, it's a weapon and hunter green is armor. Gear may have connectors on top or bottom, but never the LEFT.

If a card has a connector on the LEFT side of the card, it is an augment. This card has no value by itself. It can only be attached to a piece of gear if the connector symbols (the small orange symbol inside the connector) match. Additionally, the color of the card must match (you can't augment a weapon with an armor augment).

If a card does not have a connector on the LEFT or RIGHT, the card is an upgrade. An upgrade can be equipped on its own, or can be attached to a piece of gear to upgrade that gear. When this occurs, it now counts as a single piece of equipment. Weapons require a number of hands equal to the largest number of hands on either the piece of gear or any of their upgrades (I.e. if the piece of gear and all of the upgrades only have ONE hand on them, the full piece of gear only requires one hand).

Upgrades can be attached to gear, but gear can NOT be attached to other pieces of gear. Since augments can only be attached to gear and any piece of equipment (combination of gear, upgrades and augments) can only have one piece of gear, it can also only have one augment.

The augment only improves the combat abilities of the gear, not the upgrades. So, if an upgrade adds a new attack ability and the augment adds 1 to all attacks, it would NOT apply to the attack ability on the upgrade. It would apply to the attack abilities on the base piece of gear itself.

Finally, Augments, Upgrades and Gear all need to be the same color. You can't apply an armor upgrade to a weapon and vice versa.

So, bottom line, how do you know if it's correct? For any piece of equipment, it should be a column of cards, no taller than three (which would happen if the base gear had connectors on top or bottom, which I can't remember if I saw that or not). There should also not be more than one connecter on the right side of that column, and that connector may or may not have an augment attached to it.

If you see two connectors on the right, you've done it wrong.
If your right column has more than one card, you've also done it wrong.
If any of the cards are a different color from any of the other cards, you've done it wrong.

DOES THIS SEEM CORRECT? (Apologies if I'm inventing new terms here, just wrapping my hear around it for clarity).
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Juraj Bilić
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Quote:
If a card does not have a connector on the LEFT or RIGHT, the card is an upgrade.

You don't know by only seeing the item if it's an upgrade or not.

The item is an upgrade, only if it is connected on top of the equipped item.

With this simplification in mind, the inventory mechanism becomes more easier to understand.
 
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Ryan Jenkinson
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Asipu wrote:
Quote:
If a card does not have a connector on the LEFT or RIGHT, the card is an upgrade.

You don't know by only seeing the item if it's an upgrade or not.

The item is an upgrade, only if it is connected on top of the equipped item.

With this simplification in mind, the inventory mechanism becomes more easier to understand.


I have a question specifically on upgrades. I'm trying to understand the examples of wrong combinations at the bottom of page 19 in the manual. I can understand mismatching symbols for Augments - the difference between a minus and circle icon is clear.

But for upgrades (the indicators at the top or bottom of a card) - I don't understand what is mismatched, the icons look identical? As in the example, I don't understand why Displacer Vest is compatible with Hobnailed Boots - but incompatible with Obnubilator.

Thanks for clearing this one up!
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Juraj Bilić
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Quote:
I don't understand why Displacer Vest is compatible with Hobnailed Boots - but incompatible with Obnubilator. (Page 19.)


*edit
I didn't understand correctly your case. True, it doesn't work (because of 2 augmentable apparels).
(the rule was made to deny the concept of wearing two body armors, and I didn't want to include another icon)
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Adam M
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So, if i am to understand this correctly, i have some examples with cards and i'll list the cards and what they do.

All of these are apparel or apparel augment:
Grotesque Mask: Left: nothing, Top: nothing, Right: Triangle, Down: Upgrade
Prismatic Lens: Left: nothing, Top: nothing, Right: Nothing, Down: Upgrade
Displacer Vest: Left: nothing, Top: Upgrade, Right: Triangle, Down: Upgrade
Charging Boots: Left: nothing, Top: Upgrade, Right: Triangle, Down: Nothing
HobNailed Boots: Left: nothing, Top: Upgrade, Right: Nothing, Down: Nothing
Leather Holster: Left: Triangle, Top,Bottom, Right: Nothing

Not OK to do:
Displacer Vest, with Grotesque Mask on top due to 2 augment symbols
Displacer Vest, Hobnail boots on bottom and prismatic lens on top because can't upgrade Displacer Vest twice.

Ok to do:
Grotesque Mask with Leather Holster Augment and Hobnailed Boots attached
Seems weird since leather holster can't augment a mask, but I think it follows the rules.
Charging Boots with prismatic lens
Displacer Vest with either prismatic lens or hobnailed boots, but not both and leather holster as augment


If i'm wrong on any of this, please us know.
 
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Juraj Bilić
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Not Ok: Displacer Vest, with Grotesque Mask on top due to 2 augment symbols.
True, not ok. (the rule was made to deny the concept of wearing two body armors, and I didn't want to include another icon)

Not Ok: Displacer Vest, Hobnail boots on bottom and prismatic lens on top because can't upgrade Displacer Vest twice.
True, not ok. But in this case Displacer Vest is an upgrade, so it can't be further upgraded.

Ok: Grotesque Mask with Leather Holster Augment and Hobnailed Boots attached.
Yes, ok. Because of simplicity, there is only one possible symbol within apparel type (triangle). The rationalization for this augment could still be that it augments torso, not the head (as is in the case with Grotesque mask).

Ok: Charging Boots with prismatic lens
Yes, ok.

Ok: Displacer Vest with either prismatic lens or hobnailed boots, but not both and leather holster as augment
True.
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Sascha
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Hello Guys,

I have another question on upgrades.
Where is the benefit when i upgrade weapons.
My understanding is i can only use one weapon but what is then the benefit for upgrading weapons.

 
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Juraj Bilić
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Quote:
Where is the benefit when i upgrade weapons.

Suppose 2 cases:
a)
- you have a Penumatic hammer (two handed weapon), upgraded with a Blood-boost gun (one handed) - you may use any weapon you choose (even augment the gun with additional abilities), otherwise only one of those weapons could be equipped at the same time.

b)
- one hand: Shield, upgraded with a gun,
- second hand: Heavy javelin
 
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Sascha
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Juraj thank you for the clarification but that means when i attack a Monster with a upgraded Weapon the Attack-Dice don't stack? Right?
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Juraj Bilić
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True, they don't.
 
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Sascha
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We finished our First 2-Player Game. It was a great fun but during play another question arise. My fellow upgraded the Rogue Rifle with the Blood-Boost Gun. In a later Turn he attacks a Monster with the Rogue Rifle. The question in that Situation was, is the passive ability from the Blood-Boost Gun also triggered or only the passive ability from the used weapon .
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Juraj Bilić
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Quote:
Default rulings (back of manual):
'On kill' and 'on hit' abilities of weapons are resolved only if the item in question was the one that triggered the ability.

Only the passive ability from the used weapon.
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Sascha
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Thank you Juraj for the fast answer and the link where it is illustrated in the manuel. I skip that on the back of the manuel.
Thank you also for this great game.
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Sascha
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Juraj i have another question after my next Soloplay. In the Rulebook on page 15 Passive Abilities stands: Passive Abilities on unit cards are always present. Is it right that when i use a equiped Weapon that the passive ability from the Unit card can also triggered except it is a on kill or on hit ability?
 
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Juraj Bilić
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It is best to actually describe the example with real items and cards.
(It will be useful for the FAQ)
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Sascha
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For Example:

When i play with Blenda Warren and attack a Monster with the Hunting Crossbow and i kill the monster then i'am Not allowed to use the passive ability from the unit card that says " on kill, you may restore 1 Health instead of gaining essence. Because of the on kill phrase, right?



Another question on passive abilities:
On the K.Alan Ernest Unit card the passive ability says: For active abilities, you can lose essence instead stamina. So, can i combine essence and stamina in this case. For example: i want to use the Hunting Crossbow, but i only have 1 stamina and 2 essence left. Can i use the passive ability to spend 2 essence and then the 1 stamina to use the active ability?
 
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Juraj Bilić
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Quote:
When i play with Blenda Warren and attack a Monster with the Hunting Crossbow and i kill the monster then i'am Not allowed to use the passive ability from the unit card that says " on kill, you may restore 1 Health instead of gaining essence. Because of the on kill phrase, right?


Default ruling is: 'On kill' and 'on hit' abilities of weapons are resolved only if the item in question was the one that triggered the ability.

This just limits the use of 'on kill/hit' with weapons (so you can use Blenda's ability in this case).
(Otherwise you could have 3 items with 'on kill/hit' effect that would trigger 3 times for every case)

Quote:
On the K.Alan Ernest Unit card the passive ability says: For active abilities, you can lose essence instead stamina. So, can i combine essence and stamina in this case. For example: i want to use the Hunting Crossbow, but i only have 1 stamina and 2 essence left. Can i use the passive ability to spend 2 essence and then the 1 stamina to use the active ability?

Yes indeed.
 
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Janet Welch
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I'm sorry I still don't get this, or rather I think I get it but would like simple clarification.

An entire item may only have one upgrade and one augment (max 3 cards per entire item)

In addition to only having one augment it may only have one augment symbol on the right. You can not upgrade an item with an augment symbol with an upgrade with an augment symbol.

The bottom card of any entire item set of 3 cards in the item, the card on top is the upgrade and the card to the right (of either card) is the augment and only augments the card it is attached to.

This really is not clear in the book as no where does it actually describe the upgrade/augment rules. I assumed the first item card put down was the item and then you upgraded that but that is not the case.

Looking at the picture on page 19 the displaced vest and obnubilator can not be connected because it breaks two rules. Firstly the vest is not the bottom card, the hobnailed boots are, so the boots are the item and the vest is an upgrade, you can not upgrade an upgrade. Secondly both the vest and the obnubilator have augment symbols so they can not be connected together even if the boots were not there.

If I equipped the vest card first and later upgraded it with the boots as far as the game is concerned the boots are the item and the vest is the upgrade.
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Pauwel B
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Asipu wrote:

You don't know by only seeing the item if it's an upgrade or not.

The item is an upgrade, only if it is connected on top of the equipped item.

With this simplification in mind, the inventory mechanism becomes more easier to understand.
Just a bit of feedback in case you rewrite the rules: the upgrade/equipped rules is all confusion and no simplification. Much easier would be to just say you can only have two pieces of armour equipped (with matching symbols and only one augment slot). I feel this would prevent a lot of confusion. Before reading this thread, I thought I figured it out, but apparently I was still wrong.

An option could be writing the rules from the perspective of allowed situations, not from the perspective of allowed changes. (e.g.: don't say "you cannot upgrade an upgrade", but say "you can have only two items attached to each other"; don't say "you cannot upgrade an item with an augment slot with another item with an augment slot" but say: "you can have only one item with an augment slot in each group")

It would also avoid the following paradox: suppose I have a body armour and a helmet: the body armour is the equipped item, so I can upgrade it with boots. Now as soon as I upgrade it, it becomes an upgrade itself and it is an illegal situation, but if I do not upgrade it, I can, because it is the equipped item etc...
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Danny Bartel
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Bbender wrote:
Asipu wrote:

You don't know by only seeing the item if it's an upgrade or not.

The item is an upgrade, only if it is connected on top of the equipped item.

With this simplification in mind, the inventory mechanism becomes more easier to understand.
Just a bit of feedback in case you rewrite the rules: the upgrade/equipped rules is all confusion and no simplification. Much easier would be to just say you can only have two pieces of armour equipped (with matching symbols and only one augment slot). I feel this would prevent a lot of confusion. Before reading this thread, I thought I figured it out, but apparently I was still wrong.

An option could be writing the rules from the perspective of allowed situations, not from the perspective of allowed changes. (e.g.: don't say "you cannot upgrade an upgrade", but say "you can have only two items attached to each other"; don't say "you cannot upgrade an item with an augment slot with another item with an augment slot" but say: "you can have only one item with an augment slot in each group")

It would also avoid the following paradox: suppose I have a body armour and a helmet: the body armour is the equipped item, so I can upgrade it with boots. Now as soon as I upgrade it, it becomes an upgrade itself and it is an illegal situation, but if I do not upgrade it, I can, because it is the equipped item etc...


I have to agree that the original rules and these "clarifications" have mostly just made me more confused.

I didn't originally get that the bottom most item was the equipped item, and the upper was the upgrade. It didn't say so anywhere, it was just that the only two labelled examples had the equipped item on the bottom. Thus my initial expectation was that (in the earlier example) the equipped item would be the Displacer Vest, and you could have two upgrades, being (as per the example above) Prismatic Lens and Hobnailed Boots.

From a rules rewrite point of view, I want to be able to state the rules succinctly and clearly.

From re-reading this thread over a few times, I have come to the conclusion that the rules for Apparel are:
1. You may wear any two of: head, body and leg apparel items.
2. You may not wear two items of apparel with augment slots.
3. You may add an apparel augmentation that matches the symbol on the augment slot of the equipped item or upgrade.
(Can someone confirm that this interpretation is correct, or tell me why not.)

You could add one more:
3. If you have are wearing two items of apparel, the bottom most of the two apparel items is considered the equipped item. (I don't think this actually means anything. If something forces you to unequip an item of apparel, I presume you have to unequip the equipped item, not the upgrade, so you will lose all apparel items to your inventory anyway.)

I really don't care if the items are considered connected or not. Given the restated rules above, the upper and lower connectors don't mean anything. (It is apparently legal to wear boots and a helmet, which are unlikely to be connected, but have matching connectors.)
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