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Subject: Wood Carver - rules clarification rss

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Igor Freitas
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From the card:
Quote:
Count the number of ware types of which you have more than your opponent. Draw this many cards.


This card seems ambiguous. Let's consider the following scenario:
• I have 2 Salt and 1 Tea;
• My opponent has 1 Salt.

Should I get 2 cards because I have more quantity of wares of 2 types (more quantity of Tea and more quantity of Salt),
OR
Should I get 1 card because I have one ware type more than him, Tea (as we both have the type Salt)?
 
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Jason Monroe
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Thorigor wrote:
From the card:
Quote:
Count the number of ware types of which you have more than your opponent. Draw this many cards.


This card seems ambiguous. Let's consider the following scenario:
• I have 2 Salt and 1 Tea;
• My opponent has 1 Salt.

Should I get 2 cards because I have more quantity of wares of 2 types (more quantity of Tea and more quantity of Salt),
OR
Should I get 1 card because I have one ware type more than him, Tea (as we both have the type Salt)?


This one: get 1 card because I have one ware type more than him, Tea (as we both have the type Salt)?
The quantity of each ware doesn't matter just

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Igor Freitas
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Alright, thank you! It's a bit of a tricky sentence for a non-native English speaker.

I still see the ambiguity, but if you are certain, I'll use your definition.
 
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Keith McNeil
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I don't agree. Salt is, in this example, "a type of ware of which you have more than your opponent." Your opponent doesn't need to have zero of a type, she just needs to have less than you.

In other words, the card does NOT say, "Count the number of good types that you have that your opponent does not have." Nor does it say, "Count how many more good types you have than your opponent." It says that you are comparing quantities for every good that you have, against your opponent.
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Igor Freitas
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book_worm71 wrote:
It says that you are comparing quantities for every good that you have, against your opponent.


I interpreted the card this way as well at first, but my girlfriend interpreted it the same was as Jason did, and the confusion began.

I think that the key element here is the "of which" part. If we change this bit, could we alter the card effect? example:

"Count the number of ware types that you have more than your opponent"

Wouldn't this be the correct way to write the effect that Jason and my girlfriend believe to be correct?
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Gláucio Reis
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Thorigor wrote:
I think that the key element here is the "of which" part. If we change this bit, could we alter the card effect? example:

"Count the number of ware types that you have more than your opponent"

Wouldn't this be the correct way to write the effect that Jason and my girlfriend believe to be correct?

No, it's the same thing. It's just like "dos quais" and "que" in Portuguese, in this context. A literal translation of the original sentence would be: "Conte o número de tipos de mercadorias das quais você tem mais do que seu oponente." And the second: "Conte o número de tipos de mercadorias que você tem mais do que seu oponente." No difference in meaning.
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Igor Freitas
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Thank you Gláucio, but I still see a difference.

In the first case, "Count the number of ware types of which you have more than your opponent" (Conte o número de tipos de mercadorias das quais você tem mais do que seu oponente), we are considering both types and quantities, so if we have the same type of ware but I have a higher count, this type will also be considered.

In the second one, "Count the number of ware types that you have more than your opponent" (Conte o número de tipos de mercadorias que você tem a mais do que seu oponente), the types are the only thing at question, excluding quantities. I have 1 type more than my opponent (Tea) so I draw one card.

Well, at least this is my interpretation on the subject.
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Gillum the Stoor
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As a native English speaker, I cannot read "the number of ware types of which you have more than your opponent" as meaning the number of ware types that I have in excess of the number of ware types that he has.

As has been pointed out, the "of which" determines things here for an English speaker. For me, "ware types of which you have more" has to mean that, for each ware type, I have some quantity and those of interest are the ones of which my quantity is greater.

I can't read it the other way with the "of which" there.

Of course, it is not really the English (or even the Portuguese!) that is important - but the original German! I would guess that the German card is much clearer and that the confusion was introduced in translation (perhaps by a non-native English speaker). Unfortunately, I don't have access to the original German cards.
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Igor Freitas
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Thanks, Gillum. I agree with you.

There is a file here in BGG that's the english translated version of the cards. I believe it was translated from the original german ones.

It states (even though it's poorly written):
Holzschnitzer / Woodcarver
For each kind of product, you own a higher amount as your opponent, you take 1 card from the draw pile.

I guess it's supposed to be "For each kind of product, if you own a higher amount (...)" or "For each kind of product that you own a higher amount (...)". The meaning is the same, and it seems that our interpretation is correct.

Unfortunately I only got a partial image of the original card.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-gDX_0gFovGg/UTxi59Ze4dI/AAAAAAAAPn...


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Gláucio Reis
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Thorigor wrote:
In the second one, "Count the number of ware types that you have more than your opponent" (Conte o número de tipos de mercadorias que você tem a mais do que seu oponente), the types are the only thing at question, excluding quantities.

If that was the correct translation, yes. But the translation still is "você tem mais", not "você tem a mais". I know this is moot, as we are going on a tangent here and even agree on the interpretation of the card, but I thought I should point that out.
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Keith McNeil
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Glad that there seems to be a consensus. The card is definitely not as clear as it could and should be. I think the updated translation that you provided, "For each kind of product, if you own a higher amount (...)" is the clearest interpretation.
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Stefan
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Thorigor wrote:
From the card:
Quote:
Count the number of ware types of which you have more than your opponent. Draw this many cards.


This card seems ambiguous. Let's consider the following scenario:
• I have 2 Salt and 1 Tea;
• My opponent has 1 Salt.

Should I get 2 cards because I have more quantity of wares of 2 types (more quantity of Tea and more quantity of Salt),
OR
Should I get 1 card because I have one ware type more than him, Tea (as we both have the type Salt)?

Hey guys, I know it's been a long time since someone posted here, but as a native German speaker I just wanted to chime in. Maybe I can be of help. The German card reads (bold parts as in the original):

"Holzschnitzer
Ziehe 1 Karte vom Nachziehstapel für jede Warensorte, von der du mehr Waren auf deinem Marktstand liegen hast, als dein Gegner."


This translates to (translation by me):


"Woodcarver
Draw 1 card from the draw pile for each ware type, of which you have more wares lying down on your market stand than your opponent."


If, as in the example, I have 2 salt and 1 tea and my opponent has 1 salt, then I own more wares in two ware types (2 vs 1 salt & 1 vs 0 tea). Therefore I would draw 2 cards. The German card text is really clear on that.

So you guys had figured it out correctly on your own already. But maybe this little clarification by someone speaking German is helpful for future readers of this thread.

The Asante cards should really have received an official FAQ or something.
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