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Subject: Expanding upon the concept of attribute checks in HeroQuest rss

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Neil J.
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EDIT: Updated based upon discussion below and additional brainstorming. More comments are welcome, thanks!

Greetings

Lately I've been brainstorming of perhaps another way to utilize body points and mind points in HeroQuest, and to also introduce another attribute that I am currently calling agility points. The idea is to expand upon the attribute check concept introduced in the HQ expansions (see Kellar's Keep Quest 6 for an example of this). The goal is to encourage more of a RPG feel to the game as well as implement further "uniqueness" between the Barbarian, Dwarf, Elf and Wizard heroes.

Strength Test (2D6 result less than or equal to current Body points)
Body point assignments: Barbarian(8), Dwarf(7), Elf(6), Wizard(4)
Examples of a Strength Test:
- Action: Kick open a locked door or locked treasure chest
- Action: Lift, push or pull an object or normal sized monster one square (note that this could result in some interesting situations)
- Perform as directed by Zargon/Morcar

Dexterity Test (2D6 result less than or equal to current Agility points)
Note: Agility points replace Movement points on the Hero sheet.
Agility point assignments: Barbarian(5), Dwarf(3), Elf(6), Wizard(4)
Hero Movement = Current Agility points + 1D6 (replaces the 2D6 roll)
Examples of a Dexterity Test:
- Action: Pick open a locked door or locked treasure chest
- Action: Disarm a trap (replaces the combat die roll; Dwarf gets a -3 modifier to this roll)
- Free Action: Jump a trap (replaces the combat die roll)
- Perform as directed by Zargon/Morcar

Intelligence Test (2D6 result less than or equal to current Mind points)
Mind point assignments: Barbarian(2), Dwarf(3), Elf(4), Wizard(6)
Examples of an Intelligence Test:
- Action: Search for secret doors (no longer an automatic success)
- Action: Search for traps (no longer an automatic success for all heroes, but the Dwarf automatically succeeds without rolling)
- Perform as directed by Zargon/Morcar
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Vic R
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is not a bad idea, although there are lots of things that affect balance. For example the movement is increased for every character, but specially the elf, with an average of 10,5 with your variant. That made the elf even better (for only 2 body point less you have three spells and now even more movement) Im talking when the heroes have "lots of money" and can buy almost everything (i.e. only 4-5 quests, that being one of the biggest downfall of HQ heroes become too rich too fast and easily)

The dwarf OTOH change its automatic ability for a roll 9 or less which is equivalent to a 5/6 success, not bad but is a clear step back. And dwarf should have less agility than barbarian. A barbarian is a swift warrior who fight almost without armor, not the most clunky of the party.

So I will distribute agility this way: 2 dwarf 3/4 elf 3 mage 4 barbarian looks better for me and prevent to affect balance in movement (darwf is a bit slower, but hey they should be) and rolls on agility should be in 1D6 (or use the double against 2D6 if you prefer) I would keep the automatic success for traps in the dwarf, because it is his more (his only) relevant characterist, but YMMV. You could/should have agility modifiers based on equipment so for example the full armour means -3 agility or using a shield -1 agility, this way the more equipment the slower that you move, thats could be the most interesting point in this variant


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Neil J.
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vica8081 wrote:
is not a bad idea, although there are lots of things that affect balance. For example the movement is increased for every character, but specially the elf, with an average of 10,5 with your variant. That made the elf even better (for only 2 body point less you have three spells and now even more movement) Im talking when the heroes have "lots of money" and can buy almost everything (i.e. only 4-5 quests, that being one of the biggest downfall of HQ heroes become too rich too fast and easily)


Really appreciate your thoughts, Vic! Definitely agree that balance should be considered, and making this game easier than it already is would not be the intent. First, I wanted Agility to be scalable to that of Body and Mind (in the 2-8 range) so these tests would be standard mechanics for all 3 attributes. Also, we have had discussions in other forums about whether or not rolling 2D6 is fun/fair for hero movement, and I am of the opinion that movement = roll + modifier is very appropriate. Finally, my thoughts were to somehow combine the two: an equivalent to a D&D Dexterity test with a non "swingy" dice roll for movement. If this is too imbalanced as I proposed, perhaps a smaller Agility point number or a small die roll (i.e. 1D4) would work.

vica8081 wrote:

The dwarf OTOH change its automatic ability for a roll 9 or less which is equivalent to a 5/6 success, not bad but is a clear step back. And dwarf should have less agility than barbarian. A barbarian is a swift warrior who fight almost without armor, not the most clunky of the party.


Currently in the US version, the dwarf succeeds on a disarm trap roll of anything but a black shield (5/6 chance). If I am following your argument correctly, would this not be an equivalent of 9 or less on a 2D6 roll (30/36 chance)? Totally agree thematically the dwarf should be the slowest, but as the (arguably) least effective hero of the group I didn't want to burden the dwarf further with the worst agility on top of it. Maybe we can beef up the dwarf with an automatic success to disarm traps as you propsed, and lower his agility to 4 and raise the barbarian's to 5. I'd love to hear more thoughts on this.

vica8081 wrote:

So I will distribute agility this way: 2 dwarf 3/4 elf 3 mage 4 barbarian looks better for me and prevent to affect balance in movement (darwf is a bit slower, but hey they should be) and rolls on agility should be in 1D6 (or use the double against 2D6 if you prefer) I would keep the automatic success for traps in the dwarf, because it is his more (his only) relevant characterist, but YMMV. You could/should have agility modifiers based on equipment so for example the full armour means -3 agility or using a shield -1 agility, this way the more equipment the slower that you move, thats could be the most interesting point in this variant


Good points. To reiterate my point earlier, I wished to follow the standard 2D6 dice roll check for Strength, Dexterity and Intelligence, so I was looking to make Agility scalable to Body and Mind. Perhaps Agility numbers of dwarf(3), elf(6), wizard(5), barbarian(4), and a formula of Movement = Agility + 1D4 would be more balanced. However, then the dwarf is atrociously slow. Also, I did consider adding an Agility penalty for heavy armor, such as shields(-1), chain mail(-2) and plate armor(-3). I didn't want to add too much complexity at this point, but I'm glad you mentioned it.

Thanks again for your inputs.
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Vic R
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Gaius wrote:

Currently in the US version, the dwarf succeeds on a disarm trap roll of anything but a black shield (5/6 chance). If I am following your argument correctly, would this not be an equivalent of 9 or less on a 2D6 roll (30/36 chance)? Totally agree thematically the dwarf should be the slowest, but as the (arguably) least effective hero of the group I didn't want to burden the dwarf further with the worst agility on top of it. Maybe we can beef up the dwarf with an automatic success to disarm traps as you propsed, and lower his agility to 4 and raise the barbarian's to 5. I'd love to hear more thoughts on this.


I was talking about the detect traps ability, which is automatic for the dwarf, in your first post you said that the disarm trap is based on intelligence with a roll 7 or less for dwarf (and even less for other characters) so it made disarm traps harder, which IMHO I think is a good thing (funny that I know your variant better than you, isnt?)
In original rules chances are 5/6 for every character with tools, not only the dwarf



I have always played (my game, my homerules) with this homerule, if you search for something (treasure, traps or secret doors) you cant move the next turn, because you were searching, not moving. The exception is the dwarf and his automatic search. That serves to split the party a bit and also means that is not always the same character in the lead taking all the treasures to himself. It also made the darf somehow the fastest character (by not having to stop to search secret doors/trap) so it could blend nicely with this slower movement for the dwarf. Other characters could choose between going faster than the dwarf without looking for traps (in order to avoid losing a turn) to get the treasures or keep the pace with him to avoid steeping on any traps, again its food for thought


Gaius wrote:


Thanks again for your inputs.


You are welcome
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