Brian M
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I think Super Dungeon Explore is fun, but is a bit grindy and has a few awkward rules. Thus, I am very, very enthused about the upcoming new rules that sound like they fix some of the problems.

In fact, I was so enthused I went ahead and tested out the rules as far as I know them!

I wasn't sure if this should be under Forgotten King or the original set, since I used the original set. But since the focus of this session report is on the new rules, I feel like it belongs here.

I used a Kobold Warrens and an Egg Clutch, with Rex's for mini-bosses and Starfire for the main boss.

For the heroes, I drew randomly and got the Paladin, Nyan-Nyan, and the Hexcast Sorceress, and then decided to swap the Hexcast for the Ember Mage so I would have a bit of area effect.

I played with the following new rules that I knew of:

* All 8 Bit monsters start on the board (I decided Kobold Wyrmpriests would be 16 Bit)
* No rounds. One hero activates, then 4 Skulls of monsters activate (plus one Super Monster - Mini Boss or Boss). The same hero cannot activate twice in a row.
* No lootometer or threat track.
* Spawning takes the Consul's turn. ALL the monsters for the chosen lair spawn, and then the lair takes 1 damage. Paired lairs both take damage.
* Heroes get 1 loot per monster they kill.
* A mini-boss spawns when a lair is destroyed.
* The boss spawns instead when the last lair is destroyed.
* Mini-bosses do not grant immediate treasure, but drop a key that can be used to open a treasure chest.
* A chest can be opened with a key, or with a DEX check vs two red dice. (I made that last part up, since I know there are rules for picking locks, but not what the rules are).
* Minions get +1 attack after the first mini-boss is destroyed and +1 defense after the second mini-boss is destroyed.
* A destroyed lair drops a Princess Coin (heals a hero fully), which must be picked up from the lair's space.

I set up three dungeon tiles in an 'L' shape, with the Egg Clutch in the middle.

Since destroying the Egg Clutch would drop the Consul's potential spawning, the heroes entered on the middle tile.

Early on, it was very hard for the consul to do much damage; getting 1 loot per kill powered up the heroes quickly, and then they could spend loot to heal wounds. And the Paladin could heal a lot! However, the consul could keep the pressure on to prevent the heroes from building up potions.

The first spawn point lasted much longer than in an old game; since they don't constantly spawn, there wasn't nearly the incentive to immediately kill it.

When to spawn was tricky. As long as the OL had a good supply of monsters, there didn't seem to be much of a point to spawning more, and it was costly to do so.

After destroying the center spawn point, the heroes split up, with Nyan Nyan zipping down to try to kill the poorly defended lower spawn point while the Paladin went left for the other one, and the Ember Mage stuck to the middle to support both.

However, the Consul spawned at the lower spawn point, putting a lot of kobolds in the way!

The first Rex didn't last long, but when the Paladin destroyed the second spawn point, the second Rex appeared in a much better defended area and was able to take a lot of advantage of kobold mob attacks.

The heroes destroyed the 3rd spawning point with lots of kobolds still on the board and a Rex still alive. This gave the Consul lots of toys to play with, but at least only one super-boss could activate at a time.

The Paladin took a while to go get a far off treasure chest. Meanwhile, Nyan-Nyan was being almost impossible to hit (Dodge + a Treasure that gave a green dex die and a few other DEX boosting loot cards). However, the Ember Mage wasn't nearly as invulnerable, and was chomped by Starfire!

The heroes uses a Resurrection item to bring her back, but the resurrect roll was terrible - only 2 health recovered! Which meant Starfire zoomed across the board and killed her again.

Things looked bad for Nyan-Nyan when Starfire hit her with a tail-strike, but the lucky cat proceeded to make her '9 Lives roll' several times in a row!

Nyan-Nyan got away from the Kobold Horde, and the tough and unscathed Paladin moved into to block the path and attacked Starfire viciously - but couldn't manage to get a potion on his attacks, and had the Wyrmpriests beat him up, and then have Starfire finish him off! As she picked her teeth with his sword, she turned to the cat...

All alone, Nyan-Nyan fought valiantly, doing the last bit of damage to take Starfire to half damage, but a few turns later, missing a dodge against a knockdown attack doomed her. The Dark Consul was victorious!

I made a few big tactical blunders for the heroes:
1) Coming in on the middle tile. Bad idea.
2) Splitting the team.
3) Not thinning about the kobold hordes enough before destroying the last spawn points.

Overall, I liked the new style of play a lot. My one concern was that it was common to switch back and forth between two heroes activating, ignoring the third. I feel like that could be a problem with multi-player games; one hero player may wind up bored!

I really did not miss the loot track or the threat track, and the game seemed to play very well without them.

The overall pace and arc of the game was a lot better, without the big mid-game jam ups. There was a more consistent combat level, and the difference in outnumbering was much less of an issue. In the old rules, too few monsters are in really bad shape, and too many monsters are a big pain for the heroes). In the new rules, since the activation always remains at 1 monster - 4 skulls, the total number of monsters just doesn't matter as much.

Being able to activate once for every hero activation made mini-bosses and bosses much nastier!

Really looking forward to the actual full rules! And the Rabid Squirrels!
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Reddish22
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One note, I think it's one loot per Minion or Denizen (whichever the more difficult monsters are) not per monster, IIRC.
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Jason Rupp
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I thought the heroes still acted in order (at least I hope that's how it is).

Did you play potions correctly? I believe the paladin can only use his potion effect on his turn with the new rules.
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Jason Rupp
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reddish22 wrote:
One note, I think it's one loot per Minion or Denizen (whichever the more difficult monsters are) not per monster, IIRC.


Pretty sure it's all monsters.
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Brian M
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reddish22 wrote:
One note, I think it's one loot per Minion or Denizen (whichever the more difficult monsters are) not per monster, IIRC.


The rule posted on the KS is:

Quote:
The party may draw one card from the Loot Deck for every minion or denizen destroyed during the turn, up to a maximum of three cards.


Quote:
Did you play potions correctly? I believe the paladin can only use his potion effect on his turn with the new rules.

Nope. Missed that one!
 
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Reddish22
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rrrrupp wrote:
reddish22 wrote:
One note, I think it's one loot per Minion or Denizen (whichever the more difficult monsters are) not per monster, IIRC.


Pretty sure it's all monsters.


Just checked, it says Minions and Denizens - but I think that includes them all.
 
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Brian M
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Quote:
Did you play potions correctly? I believe the paladin can only use his potion effect on his turn with the new rules.


OK, I think this is wrong:

Quote:
A Hero is not restricted to drinking only the potions listed on their card. During their activation a Hero may choose to drink another Hero’s potion.


Whether a hero could use it completely out of turn would depend on whether it was a Support potion or an Emergency potion. At the moment, obviously, it isn't either.
 
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Jason Rupp
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StormKnight wrote:
Quote:
Did you play potions correctly? I believe the paladin can only use his potion effect on his turn with the new rules.


OK, I think this is wrong:

Quote:
A Hero is not restricted to drinking only the potions listed on their card. During their activation a Hero may choose to drink another Hero’s potion.


Whether a hero could use it completely out of turn would depend on whether it was a Support potion or an Emergency potion. At the moment, obviously, it isn't either. :p


I guess what I meant was... I thought I heard the paladin potion was nerfed so that it could only be used during his turn (i.e. it's a support potion with the new cards).
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Davi Rosa
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I created a thread on this very topic, but used von drak as the boss. The problem came when the first mini boss spawned (that specter). One of the heroes had a pacify weapon and would pacify the miniboss. It, on its turn, could not remove the status because it sucks at attacking - ita only startegy is to use a special attack to drain life, which was not possible because of the pacify.
Using the old rules, you could use the extra skull to do that, but with the new ones, the mini boss was just dead weight.
I belive we need just a little more to really play by the new rules. Looking foward to them!goo
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Brian M
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The Reaper guy is very, very vulnerable to Pacify. But they may change his stats on the new card.
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Jason Rupp
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Thanks for the report though! Hopefully we'll get the new rules soon. I'd like to see the arcade rules before I lock in my pledge (currently just at the base pledge but I'll add the warbands if arcade mode looks playable).
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Great great idea !

What about the game lenght ?
Is it the same with the new rule ?

StormKnight wrote:

* Spawning takes the Consul's turn. ALL the monsters for the chosen lair spawn, and then the lair takes 1 damage. Paired lairs both take damage.

I think the new spawning also completely heals the monsters (of the chosen lair) that are already on the board.
 
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Kelly Overholser
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rrrrupp wrote:
StormKnight wrote:
Quote:
Did you play potions correctly? I believe the paladin can only use his potion effect on his turn with the new rules.


OK, I think this is wrong:

Quote:
A Hero is not restricted to drinking only the potions listed on their card. During their activation a Hero may choose to drink another Hero’s potion.


Whether a hero could use it completely out of turn would depend on whether it was a Support potion or an Emergency potion. At the moment, obviously, it isn't either. :p


I guess what I meant was... I thought I heard the paladin potion was nerfed so that it could only be used during his turn (i.e. it's a support potion with the new cards).


I believe the new rule would be, if a hero wants to use the Paladin's potion, it can only be on the turn of the hero drinking it. The paladin can't give his potion to someone else during his own turn. I could be mistaken, though.

Also, since it looks like loot is a lot easier to come by now, did they say if it can be discarded for health/potions?
 
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E. N.
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Any word on how many items the backpack will be able to hold?
 
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Thiago Souza
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I had a similar idea, with a few differences:

- Loot and Treasure cards can't be spent to heal or gain potions.
- The mini-boss still grants a treasure card on top of dropping the key.
- The chests can be smashed on an ATT roll of 3+ stars, or pick locked on a DEX roll of 3+ stars (I actually like your 2 red dice idea better).
- I also got rid of every old Status Effects and used the new ones instead, when possible.

Also added this after the first play session:
- Resurrection Charms were removed from the game for good. The Princess Coins are enough to keep the heroes alive.

I played two sessions with these new rules, both with 4 heroes. Both sessions lasted around 4~5 hours (pretty long if you ask me, but then again I had people playing for the first time and in one of the games I had a hero player who stopped everyone to think about every move the heroes made...).

The game flowed pretty smoothly and felt very well balanced. On the first game I was able to kill heroes about four times, but they had the coins and both Resurrection Charms (which made me decide to take those cards out of the game for good). That led them to a pretty epic victory (and even though I was the Consul player, I felt very, very happy for that, because I was delighted to see my friends enjoying the game as much as I was. They were unsure about the game because they thought it to be too complex and time consuming after playing it for the first time with the current rules).

The only hiccups were:
- The heroes got more loot than they knew what to do with, and the game was constantly interrupted for them to check if the new loot was good for anyone before deciding to discard it.
- Also they got fully equipped so fast that even Rex had a hard time dealing with them the first time he spawned.
- Not having skull tokens to heal Status Effects from bosses and mini-bosses was rough...
- The Paladin wound up being just a potion carrier, since he barely activated. He was there just because he had that pesky potion of his, while the other heroes sliced and blasted their way through my poor, poor Kobolds. (On the first game this wasn't an issue, since the Paladin player was the one giving orders to the others. The second game was a different case... the Paladin was so pissed he didn't get to activate that he simply refused to let others use his potion.)

Sadly I didn't stop to think and decide which potion is what kind, so they all could be used anytime, by anyone.

My final thoughts are that the game CAN already be played with what we know of the new rules. Heck, I think it SHOULD be played this way!
Obviously we need the revised cards for a more well balanced game, and I hope SPM show us the stats for old cards when the new rules are finally released, we deserve to play with the new rules even if we did not back FK or do not buy it when it "goes retail".

PS: I love Kobolds so much that I really, reeeeally wanted to have a Kobold boss.
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konradoshut wrote:
I had a similar idea, with a few differences:

- Loot and Treasure cards can't be spent to heal or gain potions.
- The mini-boss still grants a treasure card on top of dropping the key.
- The chests can be smashed on an ATT roll of 3+ stars, or pick locked on a DEX roll of 3+ stars (I actually like your 2 red dice idea better).
- I also got rid of every old Status Effects and used the new ones instead, when possible.

Also added this after the first play session:
- Resurrection Charms were removed from the game for good. The Princess Coins are enough to keep the heroes alive.

I played two sessions with these new rules, both with 4 heroes. Both sessions lasted around 4~5 hours (pretty long if you ask me, but then again I had people playing for the first time and in one of the games I had a hero player who stopped everyone to think about every move the heroes made...).

The game flowed pretty smoothly and felt very well balanced. On the first game I was able to kill heroes about four times, but they had the coins and both Resurrection Charms (which made me decide to take those cards out of the game for good). That led them to a pretty epic victory (and even though I was the Consul player, I felt very, very happy for that, because I was delighted to see my friends enjoying the game as much as I was. They were unsure about the game because they thought it to be too complex and time consuming after playing it for the first time with the current rules).

The only hiccups were:
- The heroes got more loot than they knew what to do with, and the game was constantly interrupted for them to check if the new loot was good for anyone before deciding to discard it.
- Also they got fully equipped so fast that even Rex had a hard time dealing with them the first time he spawned.
- Not having skull tokens to heal Status Effects from bosses and mini-bosses was rough...
- The Paladin wound up being just a potion carrier, since he barely activated. He was there just because he had that pesky potion of his, while the other heroes sliced and blasted their way through my poor, poor Kobolds. (On the first game this wasn't an issue, since the Paladin player was the one giving orders to the others. The second game was a different case... the Paladin was so pissed he didn't get to activate that he simply refused to let others use his potion.)

Sadly I didn't stop to think and decide which potion is what kind, so they all could be used anytime, by anyone.

My final thoughts are that the game CAN already be played with what we know of the new rules. Heck, I think it SHOULD be played this way!
Obviously we need the revised cards for a more well balanced game, and I hope SPM show us the stats for old cards when the new rules are finally released, we deserve to play with the new rules even if we did not back FK or do not buy it when it "goes retail".

PS: I love Kobolds so much that I really, reeeeally wanted to have a Kobold boss.


Is 4-5 hours longer than normal for your group? I'll never get this game to the table if it takes 4-5 hours to play with the new rules. I was hoping it'd be a shorter game... the games were already pretty close to too long with the old rules.
 
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Thiago Souza
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rrrrupp wrote:

Is 4-5 hours longer than normal for your group? I'll never get this game to the table if it takes 4-5 hours to play with the new rules. I was hoping it'd be a shorter game... the games were already pretty close to too long with the old rules.

It is longer, but only beacause that was the first time both groups had played this game, so there was a lot of downtime for me to answer their questions and explain the game to them.
Also, there were 4 heroes, I think that makes the game session even longer.
Overall the game is much faster with these new rules rather than the old ones.
 
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It all depends on the heroes and consul minis selected, and of course how quickly the players themselves are at picking up the rules and strategizing. I love this game, but SDE, like monsterpocalypse, has a superficially light theme on top of a really complex system.

I anticipate that the new rules will speed things up though, as they condense the player and consult turns. It also seems like it's going to be a bit more lethal after the rules change, which will hopefully expedite play.

An oblique comparison I'd make, between old and new rules, is 40k vs x-wing. 40k privileges the defense and toughness of characters, and so matches can really drag and attack after attacke gets deflected. X-wing privileges attackes, so the game encourages boldness, and play moves along more smoothly.
 
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