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Subject: Some Timing Questions rss

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Dan Likos
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I have been playing for some time now and have once or twice run into some questions that I have noticed are popping up with more and more frequency...

1) Timing of the spell "Wither"... I have a bad habit of casting the spell prior to the strength test portion of combat, usually it doesn't matter...until I faced "Spinner of Webs" and failed the will test which means the strength test doesn't even occur...well should the spell still have been cast, potentially with the negative effect of casting?

2) Timing of Yog-Sothoth's "Arcane Understanding" mystery (cast a spell, discard it and a clue, claim an Eldritch token) and the spell "Clairvoyant" can I cast clairvoyant ... successfully claim a remote clue on the board, then discard the newly acquired clue and clairvoyant to earn the Eldritch token?

Not a timing question

3) There is a Lost in Time and Space condition card that has you spawn a gate and then perform a monster surge on that space. Would you spawn a monster for the gate and then perform the monster surge....or just place the gate with the monster surge number of monsters...

Thanks.
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Xelto G
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Quote:
1) Timing of the spell "Wither"... I have a bad habit of casting the spell prior to the strength test portion of combat, usually it doesn't matter...until I faced "Spinner of Webs" and failed the will test which means the strength test doesn't even occur...well should the spell still have been cast, potentially with the negative effect of casting?


Nothing says when to cast the spell. Go ahead and cast it just before the strength test.

(It makes sense in most of the "fail will = no combat" monsters anyway.)

Quote:
2) Timing of Yog-Sothoth's "Arcane Understanding" mystery (cast a spell, discard it and a clue, claim an Eldritch token) and the spell "Clairvoyant" can I cast clairvoyant ... successfully claim a remote clue on the board, then discard the newly acquired clue and clairvoyant to earn the Eldritch token?


Technically, you can resolve the effects in either order. Most people will grab the clue first, then use it.

Quote:
3) There is a Lost in Time and Space condition card that has you spawn a gate and then perform a monster surge on that space. Would you spawn a monster for the gate and then perform the monster surge....or just place the gate with the monster surge number of monsters...


Every time you spawn the gate, you draw a monster for it. The monster surge is separate, so you'll end up with 1 + surge # monsters (minus any that vanish to other locations).
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Jan Probst
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dlikos wrote:
2) Timing of Yog-Sothoth's "Arcane Understanding" mystery (cast a spell, discard it and a clue, claim an Eldritch token) and the spell "Clairvoyant" can I cast clairvoyant ... successfully claim a remote clue on the board, then discard the newly acquired clue and clairvoyant to earn the Eldritch token?

I'd say no. Clair merely expands your encounter options, it doesn't actually have you do the encounter as part of the effect.
To actually *use* these encounter options, I feel you have to "move on" from the spellcast, squeezing in an entire encounter before doing a responselike thing like that is highly dubious I feel.

(I forget, does Clairvoyance now have a backside that can immediately gives you a clue and not just the one that merely spawns a new one? With that it would work since the clue is gained as part of spell resolution)
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Nikki Valens

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Weltenreiter wrote:
dlikos wrote:
2) Timing of Yog-Sothoth's "Arcane Understanding" mystery (cast a spell, discard it and a clue, claim an Eldritch token) and the spell "Clairvoyant" can I cast clairvoyant ... successfully claim a remote clue on the board, then discard the newly acquired clue and clairvoyant to earn the Eldritch token?

I'd say no. Clair merely expands your encounter options, it doesn't actually have you do the encounter as part of the effect.
To actually *use* these encounter options, I feel you have to "move on" from the spellcast, squeezing in an entire encounter before doing a responselike thing like that is highly dubious I feel.

(I forget, does Clairvoyance now have a backside that can immediately gives you a clue and not just the one that merely spawns a new one? With that it would work since the clue is gained as part of spell resolution)


I agree with this assessment. The Clairvoyance Spell only grants you an encounter option, but you finish casting the spell before taking that encounter. The trigger from Arcane Understanding would have come and gone before you pick up the Research Encounter card.
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Tom Chick
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dlikos wrote:
1) Timing of the spell "Wither"... I have a bad habit of casting the spell prior to the strength test portion of combat, usually it doesn't matter...until I faced "Spinner of Webs" and failed the will test which means the strength test doesn't even occur...well should the spell still have been cast, potentially with the negative effect of casting?


According to a recent email from co-designer Nikki Valens -- apparently Fantasy Flight can't be arsed to actually interact with us here on BGG -- Wither is not part of the Combat Encounter (she said this by way of ruling that Jim Carver's ability doesn't affect your Wither test). Which I think is a poorly thought-out ruling that I'm happy to ignore, but it would presumably mean you have to cast and resolve Wither entirely before you even know whether there's going to be a strength check.

-Tom
 
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Tom Chick
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ValentineNyan wrote:
The Clairvoyance Spell only grants you an encounter option, but you finish casting the spell before taking that encounter. The trigger from Arcane Understanding would have come and gone before you pick up the Research Encounter card.


What's your source for this idea about a window for the trigger effect of Arcane Understanding? You cast a spell, which means resolving that spell entirely. Why wouldn't the encounter from Clairvoyance be included as part of the spell resolution?

I don't understand your reasoning here and it seems to me there's nothing in the rules that would prohibit Clairvoyance from being used to satisfy Arcane Understanding.

-Tom
 
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Sverre
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TomChick wrote:
ValentineNyan wrote:
The Clairvoyance Spell only grants you an encounter option, but you finish casting the spell before taking that encounter. The trigger from Arcane Understanding would have come and gone before you pick up the Research Encounter card.


What's your source for this idea about a window for the trigger effect of Arcane Understanding? You cast a spell, which means resolving that spell entirely. Why wouldn't the encounter from Clairvoyance be included as part of the spell resolution?

I don't understand your reasoning here and it seems to me there's nothing in the rules that would prohibit Clairvoyance from being used to satisfy Arcane Understanding.


See very long discussion on Clairvoyance here: http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1099208/clairvoyance

The general conclusion (at least the one I took home from that discussion) is that Clairvoyance does not make you immediately do an encounter. Instead, it opens up an encounter option.

After casting it, you must deal with monsters in your space (which, if you were clever, you should have done before casting it), and if no monsters left, you can do one encounter as normal. The far-away encounter option is one of the encounters you can choose to have.
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Dan Likos
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If you fail the clairvoyance roll...do you then have to have an encounter on your space?
 
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Sverre
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dlikos wrote:
If you fail the clairvoyance roll...do you then have to have an encounter on your space?


Yes.

(Though I don't know what the backs of Clairvoyance say - they will obviously over-rule that if they say something else.)
 
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MC Crispy
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1 deal with Local Monster encounter
2 cast clairvoyance
3a if successfully cast clairvoyance, encounter remote Clue
3b if unsuccessful, have local encounter

The 'as though there were no monsters' is there to clarify the way it works so it's clear that you're not having an encounter in the remote space (when you'd have to deal with monsters), merely remotely encountering the clue (learning something about Mythos through psychic ability).
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Tom Chick
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Sverre wrote:
The general conclusion (at least the one I took home from that discussion) is that Clairvoyance does not make you immediately do an encounter. Instead, it opens up an encounter option.

After casting it, you must deal with monsters in your space (which, if you were clever, you should have done before casting it), and if no monsters left, you can do one encounter as normal. The far-away encounter option is one of the encounters you can choose to have.


That's all good and well, but I don't see how it disqualifies Clairvoyance from applying to Arcane Understanding. Some folks in this thread are making weird assumptions about trigger windows and limited timing. That's certainly your prerogative, but if I've missed something in the rules, I'd love to know.

-Tom
 
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Sverre
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TomChick wrote:
Sverre wrote:
The general conclusion (at least the one I took home from that discussion) is that Clairvoyance does not make you immediately do an encounter. Instead, it opens up an encounter option.

After casting it, you must deal with monsters in your space (which, if you were clever, you should have done before casting it), and if no monsters left, you can do one encounter as normal. The far-away encounter option is one of the encounters you can choose to have.


That's all good and well, but I don't see how it disqualifies Clairvoyance from applying to Arcane Understanding. Some folks in this thread are making weird assumptions about trigger windows and limited timing. That's certainly your prerogative, but if I've missed something in the rules, I'd love to know.

-Tom


The original question was:

dlikos wrote:
can I cast clairvoyant ... successfully claim a remote clue on the board, then discard the newly acquired clue and clairvoyant to earn the Eldritch token?


And the answer is no, because of the way Clairvoyance works.

When you cast a spell, you can discard the spell and a clue for Arcane Understanding. But when you are done casting Clairvoyance, you have not yet gained the clue. You still have to potentially fight monsters, and then go and have the clue encounter. So the clue is not available when you cast the spell - it is available only later. So you cannot use that clue (that you don't have yet) at the time you are casting the spell.
 
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Tom Chick
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Sverre, I have seen nothing in the rules to support your interpretation that Clairvoyance is uniquely ineligible for Arcane Understanding. If I've missed anything, please let me know. Until then, I'll leave it up to the original poster as to whether he's interested in adopting whatever house rules you're using. :)

-Tom
 
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Dan Likos
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TomChick wrote:
Sverre, I have seen nothing in the rules to support your interpretation that Clairvoyance is uniquely ineligible for Arcane Understanding. If I've missed anything, please let me know. Until then, I'll leave it up to the original poster as to whether he's interested in adopting whatever house rules you're using.

-Tom


Clairvoyance is OK for Arcane Understanding IF you already have to clue to pay.

But the question was, can I use the new obtained clue to pay for Arcane Understanding.
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Tom Chick
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Ah, I see what you guys are arguing. That makes more sense, but I still say it's not corroborated by the rules.

To wit, when you cast Clairvoyance, you flip the card. In some cases, the card gives you a bonus for the encounter, after which you flip the card back over. Isn't Clairvoyance still in the process of being resolved in that case? After all, it's flipped and awaiting a return to its previous state.

From page 11 on the reference guide: "When an investigator resolves a Spell card's effect, he resolves the effects on the front of the card. This may include a test and/or flipping the card." So the flipping is clearly part of the resolution (i.e. casting), but the flipping has ongoing instructions. The text on the top of every single spell card's reverse side reads as follow: "Resolve the effect based on your test result" with "then flip this card" at the bottom. The modifications and effects of the spell are then listed.

That says to me the encounter which is modified by some instances of Clairvoyance (add one die, for example) is clearly part of the spell's resolution (i.e. casting). Does that mean some instances of Clairvoyance are resolved before the encounter? Are you guys then arguing that we resolve different instances of different spells according to different rules? If so, that seems like an unnecessary mess. Fantasy Flight has done a lot of great work streamlining Eldritch Horror. I have no desire to undo that with these sorts of weird exceptions. Clairvoyance isn't resolved until the encounter is completed and therefore the results of the encounter are available for any action that follows casting the spell.

I'm probably just repeating issues from the other thread, which I have no desire to wade into. But it seems to me there's no provision in the rules for some sort of trigger window that means you've washed your hands entirely of Clairvoyance before you resolve the ensuing encounter. Instead, you're going to have to house rule that different spells have entirely different timing issues that you'll have to resolve on a case-by-case basis. Have fun!

-Tom
 
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Justin Marble
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TomChick wrote:
Ah, I see what you guys are arguing. That makes more sense, but I still say it's not corroborated by the rules.

To wit, when you cast Clairvoyance, you flip the card. In some cases, the card gives you a bonus for the encounter, after which you flip the card back over. Isn't Clairvoyance still in the process of being resolved in that case? After all, it's flipped and awaiting a return to its previous state.

From page 11 on the reference guide: "When an investigator resolves a Spell card's effect, he resolves the effects on the front of the card. This may include a test and/or flipping the card." So the flipping is clearly part of the resolution (i.e. casting), but the flipping has ongoing instructions. The text on the top of every single spell card's reverse side reads as follow: "Resolve the effect based on your test result" with "then flip this card" at the bottom. The modifications and effects of the spell are then listed.

That says to me the encounter which is modified by some instances of Clairvoyance (add one die, for example) is clearly part of the spell's resolution (i.e. casting). Does that mean some instances of Clairvoyance are resolved before the encounter? Are you guys then arguing that we resolve different instances of different spells according to different rules? If so, that seems like an unnecessary mess. Fantasy Flight has done a lot of great work streamlining Eldritch Horror. I have no desire to undo that with these sorts of weird exceptions. Clairvoyance isn't resolved until the encounter is completed and therefore the results of the encounter are available for any action that follows casting the spell.

I'm probably just repeating issues from the other thread, which I have no desire to wade into. But it seems to me there's no provision in the rules for some sort of trigger window that means you've washed your hands entirely of Clairvoyance before you resolve the ensuing encounter. Instead, you're going to have to house rule that different spells have entirely different timing issues that you'll have to resolve on a case-by-case basis. Have fun!

-Tom


I think you are the one using a "house rule" as you call it. Where are you getting the idea that resolving Clairvoyance includes what is basically a sub-encounter within the resolution of the spell? That really doesn't happen with any other card and there's nothing in the rules to support that interpretation.

I think we agree that the spell is "resolved" for Arcane Understanding purposes once it is flipped, the back is resolved, and flipped again. You seem to be arguing that what happen is you would test lore. Then flip the card. Then follow the effects. Then, BEFORE flipping Clairvoyance back over, doing the encounter (so you can get your clue). THEN Clairvoyance resolves. Uh, why? What exactly are you reading that makes that make any sense? It doesn't say anywhere to resolve the encounter after the back effects, but before flipping it to the front again. Doesn't it make more sense for the spell to resolve and then the encounter happens?

If anything, the way your version would be supported actually comes from the front of the card. "If you pass, you MAY choose to encounter a Clue as if you were on its space, ignoring Monsters on that space. THEN flip this card." I.E., you "encounter" and then flip, then resolve the back effects, then flip. This doesn't make much sense because as you point out, some of them give you bonus dice for the encounter.

I think the better interpretation is placing emphasis on the "as if you were on its space" language, as well as "MAY." In other words, it's not special and different from every other card in the sense that it somehow has an encounter built into the resolution of the card. After you pass the test and resolve the spell effect, you can choose a clue encounter "as if you were on its space." You can't normally enter an encounter while you are in the middle of a spell effect, so your version isn't choosing an encounter "as if you were on that space."

Similarly, it says "MAY." In other words, you can cast clairvoyance and then choose a different encounter than the research encounter you targeted, if you wanted to. I don't think you would argue that in that case, the alternate encounter would happen before the spell is resolved, right?. Wouldn't you agree that there is nothing in the rules preventing me from casting Clairvoyance, resolving it, casting Mists of Releh, resolving it, and then choosing which encounter I wanted to do? If the encounter occurs within the resolution of the spell, that wouldn't be possible.

I don't think the additional die situation presents any problems. It clearly just says to add an additional die when you do the research encounter. You can resolve the spell and then add the additional die during the subsequent encounter. That doesn't say to me that the spell is ongoing for that entire time. I would play Wither the same way, which I think is supported by FFG's interpretation that you discussed earlier in the thread (and which you seem to dislike). You cast Wither and resolve it, then you have the additional strength during the subsequent encounter. I think it would be odd to basically play Wither, resolve the back effects, do an entire combat encounter with Wither still flipped on its back, and then basically say "oh, hmm, what's this? Oh, 'then flip this card.' Right, Wither is resolved now." These cards and Mists of Releh work perfectly if you resolve them fully, THEN take the encounter right after.

My $0.02. Of course, everyone is free to play the way they like.
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Tom Chick
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Good arguments, Justin. Also, it occurs to me while reading your post that the action you do for Clairvoyance is "choosing", and not "encountering". The operative verb is important. "You may choose to encounter" supports your reading, whereas "you may encounter" would be the required phrase to support my reading. It seems the action involved in resolving Clairvoyance is the choice, and not the actual encounter that follows from that choice. Apologies if that was stated previously and I didn't catch it.

Furthermore, the language for the die roll bonus in one instance of Clairvoyance seems written to be forward looking. "You may roll one additional die when resolving tests during the Research Encounter" seems to provide for a future eventuality rather than a current effect.

I'm sold. I agree Clairvoyance will satisfy Arcane Understanding, but since the resolution of the spell is the choice and not the encounter, you wouldn't be able to use the clue token from that encounter for Arcane Understanding.

-Tom
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Oded K
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Okay, here's a follow up question. Can I use the clue gained from resolving the spell in order to advance Arcane Understanding? I'm referring to a version of Clairvoyance that gives you a clue when flipping the card.

On a related question, if I have a lodge researcher, can I fight a deep one on the Cthulhu deep one rising mystery, gain a clue from the researcher and immediately spend it for the mystery?
 
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Justin Marble
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That first scenario seems fine to me. The clue comes from the effect of the card so you get it before it resolves or at the very least, simultaneously.

On the second scenario, I don't have the cards handy, but Lodge Researcher gives you a clue whenever you defeat a monster, correct? And Cthulhu's mystery says something like "when you defeat a monster, you may spend a clue" or something similar? I think if that's the case, the effects trigger simultaneously, and there is a provision in the rules that says you choose the order of resolution when that occurs. So I think you can resolve Lodge Research, then deal with the mystery effect trigger. That's without looking at the cards and going off of memory, the text could be different.

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