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Subject: Jester Question rss

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Kevin Keogh
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Do you receive a coin if you are the active player and forfeit your turn? Or only if another player is currently the active player and forfeits?
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Klaus Ottmaier
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Hi Kevin,

rule page 3 at the top of the left column:
"... but ALL players with a jester in their personal display gain 1 coin."

The same on the last page - Jester (last sentence):
"... Should a player forfeit his turn during a Phase 1 Discover and the second Phase is skipped, ALL players with a jester gain 1 coin."

All players means all players. Not just all the other players except the active player :-).

Hope you have much fun with the game

Klaus Ottmaier

Editor Pegasus Spiele
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Hardy
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You could have looked at the headlines of few other threads in the rules section. Theres a thread about exactly that topic already almost on top of the list...
 
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Paul Cockburn
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I'm glad for this clarification. I'd been playing and teaching it wrongly.

But it's not a dumb question to ask. The rules for the jester begin "If you are currently not the active player..." and that strongly implies to me that the jester has no benefit for the active player.

Anyway - I'll get the rules right from now on.
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Christophe Menu
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Another little question about the Jester :

Do you receive two coins if the active player forfeit his turn and you have two jesters in your personal display?
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Martin G
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Yes.
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Jim Pooley
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mathmethman wrote:
I'm glad for this clarification. I'd been playing and teaching it wrongly.

But it's not a dumb question to ask. The rules for the jester begin "If you are currently not the active player..." and that strongly implies to me that the jester has no benefit for the active player.

Anyway - I'll get the rules right from now on.


I have to agree that the rules are confusing. The "If you are currently not the active player..." line made us assume that the active player does not get anything for nothing on display.

The rules say 'when it is your turn to take a card from the harbour display'.

The wording: "... Should a player forfeit his turn during a Phase 1 Discover and the second Phase is skipped.."

to me says that the active player can not take a coin because it is never his turn to take a card from the harbour display.

Anyway, basically if the active player goes bust everyone with a jester gets a card...yes I'm repeating but it's now in my head!
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Mark L
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Alfsterino wrote:
mathmethman wrote:
I'm glad for this clarification. I'd been playing and teaching it wrongly.

But it's not a dumb question to ask. The rules for the jester begin "If you are currently not the active player..." and that strongly implies to me that the jester has no benefit for the active player.

Anyway - I'll get the rules right from now on.


I have to agree that the rules are confusing. The "If you are currently not the active player..." line made us assume that the active player does not get anything for nothing on display.

The rules say 'when it is your turn to take a card from the harbour display'.

The wording: "... Should a player forfeit his turn during a Phase 1 Discover and the second Phase is skipped.."

to me says that the active player can not take a coin because it is never his turn to take a card from the harbour display.

Anyway, basically if the active player goes bust everyone with a jester gets a card...yes I'm repeating but it's now in my head!

I've just found this thread, and I'm glad too. I've also been playing and teaching this wrong!

The first line under the Jester at the back of the rules says "If you are not currently the active player..." and that completely threw me. I assumed this meant you only get a coin from the Jester when you aren't the active player.

So if the Jester gives you a coin whether you're the active player or not, why are those words there at all? All they do is cause confusion!
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Andre Bronswijk
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If you are the active player, then the only way how you can gain 1 coin by the Jester is to lose the 2nd Phase. If you don't lose it, then you will have at least 1 card in the harbor display.

So I don't understand where you see a contradiction in the rules. It can not happen that the active player during Phase 2 has no cards left, because then Phase 2 does not happen.

The rules are very clear about that at page 3:
"(...) and he is forced to forfeit the rest of his turn. Phase 2: Trade & Hire will not take place, but all players with a Jester in their personal display gain 1 coin."
 
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Mark L
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Thygra wrote:
If you are the active player, then the only way how you can gain 1 coin by the Jester is to lose the 2nd Phase. If you don't lose it, then you will have at least 1 card in the harbor display.

So I don't understand where you see a contradiction in the rules. It can not happen that the active player during Phase 2 has no cards left, because then Phase 2 does not happen.

The rules are very clear about that at page 3:
"(...) and he is forced to forfeit the rest of his turn. Phase 2: Trade & Hire will not take place, but all players with a Jester in their personal display gain 1 coin."

Let me put it this way: why are those words "If you are currently not the active player" there at all? It would be clearer and not actually change the meaning if it said "If, during Phase 2: Trade and Hire, it is your turn to take a card..." and the rest was the same after that. There's no contradiction, it's just that the wording is confusing.

I thought it meant that the Jester does not give you any benefit during your own turn (unless you choose not to draw any cards in Phase 1). Others have said they thought that too, and there's a recent review that criticises the Jester as being too expensive because the reviewer thinks you can't use it on your own turn (which is how I found out I was doing it wrong)!

The use of the word "forfeit" doesn't help, as it could imply choosing not to do something, but here it means being forced not to do something. It is stated on page 2 that you must draw at least one card, but it could be emphasised better. I had forgotten it by the time I read the rules for the Jester.

The rules on page 3 do say "all players with a Jester" but that's not where I look when I want to see what the Jester does -- again, I had forgotten that by the time I read the rules for the Jester. And when I did notice it, I thought page 3 was just giving a brief, imprecise summary of what the Jester does, and the rules in the Jester's section were the full, detailed version.
 
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Andre Bronswijk
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xipuloxx wrote:
Let me put it this way: why are those words "If you are currently not the active player" there at all?

Because that case does happen only for non-active players. It can't happen for active players. If we do not write that, then non-active players are not sure if they can use their Jester or not.

Quote:
It would be clearer and not actually change the meaning if it said "If, during Phase 2: Trade and Hire, it is your turn to take a card..." and the rest was the same after that. There's no contradiction, it's just that the wording is confusing.

Somebody wrote about a contradiction (perhaps in the other thread), and that's not true.

I agree that the current wording seems to be misleading. I think the best solution would be just to exchange the order of the 2 sentences at the Jester explanation. At first we should tell that all players with a Jester get 1 coin if phase 2 does not happen. And then we should tell that non-active player also gain 1 coin if they find 0 cards in phase 2. That would be better and this is where we did not our best job.

Quote:
The use of the word "forfeit" doesn't help, as it could imply choosing not to do something, but here it means being forced not to do something. It is stated on page 2 that you must draw at least one card, but it could be emphasised better. I had forgotten it by the time I read the rules for the Jester.

That might be a matter of translation. The original rules have been written in German, and the English text is just a translation. At my knowledge - as a non-native speaker - forfeit just means "lose" a phase here. I might be wrong, because I am not a native speaker. So if forfeit is misleading here, then sorry for that.

Quote:
The rules on page 3 do say "all players with a Jester" but that's not where I look when I want to see what the Jester does -- again, I had forgotten that by the time I read the rules for the Jester. And when I did notice it, I thought page 3 was just giving a brief, imprecise summary of what the Jester does, and the rules in the Jester's section were the full, detailed version.

There are. They is no fault in the Jester's section. It just seems to be misleading for some people. That's bad, of course. A better solution - see above.

But you wrote two times that you don't remember rules of page 2 and 3 when you are reading page 4. Please understand, when we write rules then we usually assume that people remember the rules they read a few minutes before.
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Y P
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I agree the wording on the back of the rulebook could be clearer. There are 2 sentences there, which in context of the rest of the rulebook it's obvious to me what the intent was, i.e. to describe 2 different scenarios:

1. When you are not the active player, and the active player played cards to the harbor but there are no longer any left in the harbor on your turn to pick because other players have taken them all, you gain a coin.

2. When the active player busts, all players with a Jester gain a coin.

I probably would have worded it something like "When it is your turn to select cards from the harbor (whether you are the active player or not), if there are no cards in the harbor you gain a coin." The specific terminology could be improved there, but I think the overall wording gets the point across more simply.
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Mark L
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Andre, are you a representative of the publishers? I hadn't realised that.

Anyway, a few points:

Thygra wrote:
xipuloxx wrote:
Let me put it this way: why are those words "If you are currently not the active player" there at all?

Because that case does happen only for non-active players. It can't happen for active players. If we do not write that, then non-active players are not sure if they can use their Jester or not.


Why would that make anyone unsure? The text under the Admiral simply says: "Whenever it is your time to take a card/cards during Phase 2..." No-one has said this made them unsure whether non-active players could use their Admiral. All I'm saying is the Jester should use similar wording.

True, that case can only happen for non-active players, but that means there's no need to specifically say "if you are not the active player". That's what confused me: I assumed there was a reason for that text to be there, and that therefore it was intended to limit use of the Jester to when you are not the active player.


Quote:
I agree that the current wording seems to be misleading. I think the best solution would be just to exchange the order of the 2 sentences at the Jester explanation. At first we should tell that all players with a Jester get 1 coin if phase 2 does not happen. And then we should tell that non-active player also gain 1 coin if they find 0 cards in phase 2. That would be better and this is where we did not our best job.

That would be better but as I explained, I think there's no need to say anything about the active player at that point.


Quote:
Quote:
The use of the word "forfeit" doesn't help, as it could imply choosing not to do something, but here it means being forced not to do something. It is stated on page 2 that you must draw at least one card, but it could be emphasised better. I had forgotten it by the time I read the rules for the Jester.

That might be a matter of translation. The original rules have been written in German, and the English text is just a translation. At my knowledge - as a non-native speaker - forfeit just means "lose" a phase here. I might be wrong, because I am not a native speaker. So if forfeit is misleading here, then sorry for that.


It's not the wrong word, but you can choose to forfeit something, and I thought that was the meaning here. It's my misunderstanding, but I think it would be clearer to simply say "lose".
 
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Mark L
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Thygra wrote:
But you wrote two times that you don't remember rules of page 2 and 3 when you are reading page 4. Please understand, when we write rules then we usually assume that people remember the rules they read a few minutes before.

Well, I don't have perfect recall, so when reading rules for the first time, trying to correlate the information and understand how the game works, I can easily forget one detail or misunderstand how it relates to another detail on another page. I think this is normal (see all the rules questions on BGG where someone missed something small but vital).

In this case, the rule on page 2 is right at the start of the section on phase 1, and the word "must" is not emphasised, nor is it repeated anywhere as far as I know. So by the time I got to the detailed description of the Jester, I did not remember that taking a card was not optional.

If I had realised it didn't make sense, I would have reread the rules and probably realised my error. But it seemed to make sense, so I had no need to do so.

As for the bit on page 3: that mentions the Jester before it's been explained what a Jester is, so I didn't fully understand it at that point (and therefore didn't remember it clearly). As I said, I did actually notice the contradiction later, but I assumed the text on page 3 was just a quick and slightly inaccurate description of the Jester, with the text under the Jester on page 4 giving the complete explanation.
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Andre Bronswijk
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xipuloxx wrote:
Well, I don't have perfect recall, so when reading rules for the first time, trying to correlate the information and understand how the game works, I can easily forget one detail or misunderstand how it relates to another detail on another page. I think this is normal (see all the rules questions on BGG where someone missed something small but vital).

Yes, of course. But for that reason I also think it is normal to read rules more than once.

Quote:
As for the bit on page 3: that mentions the Jester before it's been explained what a Jester is, so I didn't fully understand it at that point (and therefore didn't remember it clearly). As I said, I did actually notice the contradiction later, but I assumed the text on page 3 was just a quick and slightly inaccurate description of the Jester, with the text under the Jester on page 4 giving the complete explanation.

Correct. At page 4 the complete explanation is given. My quote of page 3 above was not refering to the words about the Jester, but to the explanation that Phase 2 will not happen if the active player busted. That is the important thing to understand the explanation of the Jester at page 4.
 
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Mark L
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Andre, I don't really understand why you seem to be trying to prove me wrong. I am not the only person to have had this same misunderstanding of how the Jester works, and I'm trying to explain why I think people misunderstand it.

Saying people should read the rules more than once is not helpful: once people believe they understand the rules they often don't read them again, at least not in full detail as they do first time around. I have played this game with other people who had also read the rules, and their understanding was no better than mine (and sometimes worse, as I had to point out things they had misread).
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Andre Bronswijk
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Mark, I already agreed that the rules can be misleading and that the wording can be better.

No offense.
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Jeff M
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Thanks for the clarification.
The phrasing "If you are currently not the active player..." on pg. 4 in the section describing specifically how the Jester works had me playing it incorrectly also.
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Evan Dunn
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So just to be clear, if the active player busts, then the cards are discarded, and then only non-active player's jesters produce correct?
 
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Martin G
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quietcorn wrote:
So just to be clear, if the active player busts, then the cards are discarded, and then only non-active player's jesters produce correct?


Nope. The active player's jesters produce too if she busts. That's what this whole thread is about!
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Evan Dunn
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Ok! So busting skips phase 2, which triggers the 0 card thing. Just wanted to make sure I had this all right.
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Corey Batten
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qwertymartin wrote:
Yes.


Was this a response to the OP, qwertymartin? Or to this question?
chris_desert wrote:
Another little question about the Jester :

Do you receive two coins if the active player forfeit his turn and you have two jesters in your personal display?


My friends and I just played and the one guy refused to play that having 2 Jesters would generate 2 coins since his wording just says "all players with a jester gain 1 coin" versus the Vice Admiral, which says explicitly that you "receive 1 coin per Vice Admiral." We tried to explain that they were from different sets and the translation for the expansion might have been clarified from the base game, but he said unless he saw a ruling on it, he wouldn't play that they stack.
 
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Peter Hendee
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ElasticPanda wrote:
qwertymartin wrote:
Yes.


Was this a response to the OP, qwertymartin? Or to this question?
chris_desert wrote:
Another little question about the Jester :

Do you receive two coins if the active player forfeit his turn and you have two jesters in your personal display?


My friends and I just played and the one guy refused to play that having 2 Jesters would generate 2 coins since his wording just says "all players with a jester gain 1 coin" versus the Vice Admiral, which says explicitly that you "receive 1 coin per Vice Admiral." We tried to explain that they were from different sets and the translation for the expansion might have been clarified from the base game, but he said unless he saw a ruling on it, he wouldn't play that they stack.


It looks like the answer to "Do you receive two coins if the active player forfeit his turn and you have two jesters in your personal display?"

And no one has disagreed.
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ElasticPanda wrote:
qwertymartin wrote:
Yes.


Was this a response to the OP, qwertymartin? Or to this question?
chris_desert wrote:
Another little question about the Jester :

Do you receive two coins if the active player forfeit his turn and you have two jesters in your personal display?


My friends and I just played and the one guy refused to play that having 2 Jesters would generate 2 coins since his wording just says "all players with a jester gain 1 coin" versus the Vice Admiral, which says explicitly that you "receive 1 coin per Vice Admiral." We tried to explain that they were from different sets and the translation for the expansion might have been clarified from the base game, but he said unless he saw a ruling on it, he wouldn't play that they stack.

Rulebook page 4: "If you have multiples of one type of card, their abilities will stack. Should you have
2 Mademoiselles, for example, you will be able to hire Persons at a 2 gold coin discount."
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Martin G
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ElasticPanda wrote:
qwertymartin wrote:
Yes.


Was this a response to the OP, qwertymartin? Or to this question?
chris_desert wrote:
Another little question about the Jester :

Do you receive two coins if the active player forfeit his turn and you have two jesters in your personal display?



To that question, and I stand by my answer
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