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Combat Commander: Europe» Forums » Rules

Subject: Broken weapons still impact movement? rss

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Michael Lind
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Of course it still reduces movement.

Think about it: your heavy machine gun jams. Did it get any smaller or lighter? You just can't use it until its repaired. There's no justification better than the darn thing is bulky and heavy and it's the same weapon broken or not.

If your opponent doesn't want to be weighted down he can always drop it and lose it forever (it is removed from play, not left on the map).

I've played in CC tournaments at PREZCON and WBC for years and NEVER seen the rules interpreted in the way your opponent suggests.

Glad y'all have discovered CC. It's a great game!
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Richard Pardoe
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Mere Gamer wrote:
However, I'm not sure how I could argue against a response of, "No modifier is showing on the side that indicates the active state of the weapon so one shouldn't be applied."


My thoughts are that the rules are in the rulebook not on the counter, so ask your opponent where in the rulebook his viewpoint (the modifier must be visible to be in effect) is supported.

Rule 11.1 states (in part): Weapons have both a FP and a Range – sometimes boxed – and possibly a detrimental modifier (in bold red, like in the sample above) to the carrying unit’s Movement. The detrimental modifier (in red) is an aspect of the weapon and not just when the unbroken side is visible. Nothing in the rule states the modifier must be visible to be in effect.



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BrentS
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Aardvarkius wrote:
Of course it still reduces movement.

Think about it….


I had exactly the same question as the OP a few weeks ago and I could have sworn I found a ruling by Chad on a search of these forums
(which I can no longer find) which confirms Richard's interpretation here.

However…..I don't think it's that clear or that the "follow the logic" argument can be applied, particularly in CC:E which rests on its primary rule of not inferring but reading what's in the rules, no more and no less. The rules are actually mute on the stats of a broken piece. We all understand that a broken unit uses its current stats (so that, for example, a broken leader tends to lose any command rating)…..we use what's on view, no more, no less. By extension, a broken weapon has no stats on view…..it loses its unbroken FP and range….so maybe it loses its movement penalty?

I'm more than happy with the logical interpretation that the weapon still has bulk and it makes sense that it would still be a burden to a moving unit……but inferential logic is manifestly not how the CC:E rules work.

Brent.

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Richard Pardoe
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goshublue wrote:
By extension, a broken weapon has no stats on view…..it loses its unbroken FP and range…

Why infer that these stats are "lost"? I find it more consistent with the rules that a broken weapon still has its FP and Range but can't be fired due to its broken status.

This is a similar situation to a suppressed/broken unit carrying a weapon. That weapon still has its FP and Range, but can't be fired due to the unit's suppressed/broken status.

In fact, the glossary for Weapon states Unlike other markers, Weapons will also always have a FP and a Range. so to infer these values are "lost" contradicts the rules as written.

Finally, Chad's post is here: Re: Combat Commander weapon portage / weapon breaking question
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BrentS
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RPardoe wrote:
goshublue wrote:
By extension, a broken weapon has no stats on view…..it loses its unbroken FP and range…

Why infer that these stats are "lost"? I find it more consistent with the rules that a broken weapon still has its FP and Range but can't be fired due to its broken status.

This is a similar situation to a suppressed/broken unit carrying a weapon. That weapon still has its FP and Range, but can't be fired due to the unit's suppressed/broken status.

In fact, the glossary for Weapon states Unlike other markers, Weapons will also always have a FP and a Range. so to infer these values are "lost" contradicts the rules as written.

Finally, Chad's post is here: Re: Combat Commander weapon portage / weapon breaking question


Thanks Richard.

To be doubly clear, I wasn't arguing the ruling, just the quoted assertion that it was obvious, which I would contend it isn't, and I felt the OP was a completely legitimate question.

Thanks also for the Glossary reference and locating Chad's ruling. My statement that a broken weapon loses its FP and Range is clearly off the mark but I would point out that the Glossary specifically doesn't mention the other stat in question here, being movement penalty, which is telling when you consider the precision of the rules and the golden rule that the rules say what they mean and no more. From my example above, we don't assume that a broken leader maintains his command simply because it is missing on the broken side of his counter.

I would also highlight that in that link Chad has stated that in CC: Pacific, there was an intention to print the movement penalty on a weapon's broken side (I don't own CC: Pacific….did this happen?)……an implied admission that this was a legitimate point of confusion and an oversight in CC: Europe.

This is all moot as the ruling is clear but worth discussing as it goes to the heart of how people learning the game approach its internal logic…and I think this is a rare instance where it is muddy.

Brent.
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Chick Lewis
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goshublue wrote: "(so that, for example, a broken leader tends to lose any command rating)"

Actually not quite true - - most broken leaders have a command rating of "zero", which still allows them to activate all units in their own hex.

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Richard Pardoe
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goshublue wrote:
From my example above, we don't assume that a broken leader maintains his command simply because it is missing on the broken side of his counter.

As Chick pointed out, it isn't missing on the broken side. It is present with a reduced value (usually 0, but not always)

Quote:
I would also highlight that in that link Chad has stated that in CC: Pacific, there was an intention to print the movement penalty on a weapon's broken side (I don't own CC: Pacific….did this happen?)

Yes...


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