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Subject: FFG'S best LCG? Yup. rss

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Cracky McCracken
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Wow. Gave this one a pass because of the somewhat negative feedback I was reading here and elsewhere.

Then my son got me a copy for my birthday. I would say SWtCG is a cross between maybe Android: Netrunner (both sides playing Corps) and Rune Age. Totally fun game, fantastic artwork and expansions out the wazoo.

I'm in! laugh

------

Edited because my phone keeps changing words.
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László K.
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The simplified deck construction mechanism in SW:TCG LCG is the best LCG innovation to date.

Opinions may (and are likely to) vary, of course.



Just my 2 cents. Good gaming!
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Duncan Idaho
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I'm glad some are enjoying it, because the artwork truly is great (for the most part), and I love to see it keep coming out!

For me, though, this is either the worst, or second worst LCG (tied, or just beating, CoC). The Pod deckbuilding mechanisms, for me, fails completely (imbalances the game and limits your options). The Edge Battle is completely game-y, breaking thematic immersion and creating a side game that has nothing to do with Star Wars. And it's also a mechanism I find to be not fun in any way.

But, as others have said, we're going to disagree on our personal tastes! I'm still holding on to my copy to see if I can get some enjoyment out of a deck with the expansions added in, but it hasn't worked for me yet.
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Brandon Holmes
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Idaho11 wrote:
I'm glad some are enjoying it, because the artwork truly is great (for the most part), and I love to see it keep coming out!

For me, though, this is either the worst, or second worst LCG (tied, or just beating, CoC). The Pod deckbuilding mechanisms, for me, fails completely (imbalances the game and limits your options). The Edge Battle is completely game-y, breaking thematic immersion and creating a side game that has nothing to do with Star Wars. And it's also a mechanism I find to be not fun in any way.

But, as others have said, we're going to disagree on our personal tastes! I'm still holding on to my copy to see if I can get some enjoyment out of a deck with the expansions added in, but it hasn't worked for me yet.


Funny, other than the great artwork which we both love, the two things you dislike most are probably the two things I like most about this game.
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Xander Fulton
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Fortunately, a big chunk of the artwork for this game is re-used without change for either FFG's Star Wars RPG, or X-Wing Miniatures.

So...you can love the artwork, and still find a different venue for it if you aren't a fan of the LCG!
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bholmes4 wrote:
Idaho11 wrote:
I'm glad some are enjoying it, because the artwork truly is great (for the most part), and I love to see it keep coming out!

For me, though, this is either the worst, or second worst LCG (tied, or just beating, CoC). The Pod deckbuilding mechanisms, for me, fails completely (imbalances the game and limits your options). The Edge Battle is completely game-y, breaking thematic immersion and creating a side game that has nothing to do with Star Wars. And it's also a mechanism I find to be not fun in any way.

But, as others have said, we're going to disagree on our personal tastes! I'm still holding on to my copy to see if I can get some enjoyment out of a deck with the expansions added in, but it hasn't worked for me yet.


Funny, other than the great artwork which we both love, the two things you dislike most are probably the two things I like most about this game.


Yeah, I always felt like the edge battles were the things that happened off camera to set up the big battles. Like many Bothans dying to get the death star plans, or Lord Palpatine leaking that the Death Star isn't yet fully operational. The cards you commit to the edge battle are things like that. It's the intelligence and counter-intelligence efforts.

But then again, I really love Star Wars, and I love this game, so it's possible I'm trying to see how these things are actually really thematic.
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Duncan Idaho
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Namrok wrote:
bholmes4 wrote:
Idaho11 wrote:
I'm glad some are enjoying it, because the artwork truly is great (for the most part), and I love to see it keep coming out!

For me, though, this is either the worst, or second worst LCG (tied, or just beating, CoC). The Pod deckbuilding mechanisms, for me, fails completely (imbalances the game and limits your options). The Edge Battle is completely game-y, breaking thematic immersion and creating a side game that has nothing to do with Star Wars. And it's also a mechanism I find to be not fun in any way.

But, as others have said, we're going to disagree on our personal tastes! I'm still holding on to my copy to see if I can get some enjoyment out of a deck with the expansions added in, but it hasn't worked for me yet.


Funny, other than the great artwork which we both love, the two things you dislike most are probably the two things I like most about this game.


Yeah, I always felt like the edge battles were the things that happened off camera to set up the big battles. Like many Bothans dying to get the death star plans, or Lord Palpatine leaking that the Death Star isn't yet fully operational. The cards you commit to the edge battle are things like that. It's the intelligence and counter-intelligence efforts.

But then again, I really love Star Wars, and I love this game, so it's possible I'm trying to see how these things are actually really thematic.


Outside of the fact I just don't enjoy a blind bid mechanism, especially in this context, that's exactly my problem with it.

I know it's supposed to represent that. Because they say it in the rulebook. Instead, they should have built a mechanism that actually felt like that. But we get, "See who has a higher number of dots." They even make a point of saying the non-Edge cards you play are blank except for the icons, so it's not like the game recognizes the characters we throw in as actually having this influence - they're just generic dots.

For a game that borrows so heavily from others, it's a shame they didn't borrow the shadow mechanism from LotR for Edge Effects on cards. Then, the Edge battle could actually be in-game thematic, instead of relying on you to create these situations in your head.

Imagine a Boba Fett that, if played into and Edge battle, captured a character. Or Bothan spies that allowed you to control the opponent's first strike, representing them getting some inside info. This would integrate what those battles are supposed to represent into the game.

At least for me! As we've seen, people enjoy different things. Doesn't make either side right!
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Darren Martin
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I got this game totally by accident. I bought two Magic the Gathering event decks from Gameslore, but got a message apologising saying that they were out of stock. I was offered either a full refund or an alternative purchase. As I was already interested in a card game, I thought to hell with it, I'll grab the new Star Wars card game instead. Best decision ever.
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badalchemist
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If you're consistently losing edge battles, maybe the deckbuilding isn't as dumbed down as you think...
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David Bate
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pincher wrote:
I got this game totally by accident. I bought two Magic the Gathering event decks from Gameslore, but got a message apologising saying that they were out of stock. I was offered either a full refund or an alternative purchase. As I was already interested in a card game, I thought to hell with it, I'll grab the new Star Wars card game instead. Best decision ever.

"Searching, clicking, paying; the Gameslore side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to deliver to you by van. If once you buy from down that path, forever will they dominate your gaming destiny. Consume your money they will with great gaming alternatives."


Note: can't spell for tuppence.
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Cracky McCracken
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This game is not dumbed down.

The original version of Star Wars Lucas turned in wasn't well recieved by the studio. It was too long and had some really lame effect shots.

The movie was re-edited (not by Lucas of course) with simple philosophy of jettisoning any shot that wasn't "fun". If a scene didn't immediately shout "woo hoo space cowboys! Pew pew" get rid of it.

The result was Star Wars and '77 was probably the best drive-in movie summer ever. This game feels like a lot of little unfun things have been edited out and what's left is really pretty cool.

Simple is not dumb. Powercreep, rules bloat and blind buying $800 worth of cards to feel competitive... now those things are falling into the unfun category.
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chris thatcher
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My favorite lcg. Personally i love the edge battle system. The art is the best ive seen in a card game (tho Lord of the rings lcg is very good also).

Great game.
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Sven Teuber
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Idaho11 wrote:
I know it's supposed to represent that. Because they say it in the rulebook. Instead, they should have built a mechanism that actually felt like that. But we get, "See who has a higher number of dots." They even make a point of saying the non-Edge cards you play are blank except for the icons, so it's not like the game recognizes the characters we throw in as actually having this influence - they're just generic dots.


That's one way of seeing it. Another is to use a bit of imagination and take a look at the artwork. Fate cards like Supporting Fire, Twist of Fate (both variants, with Lando or Obi-Wan), Echoes of the Force or Target of Opportunity have carefully chosen artwork that's related to the effect of the card. Take Target of Opportunity, for example: It's not hard imagining the fierce battle above the planet/structure (objective card) in which that one skilled (or lucky) Y-Wing pilot makes the difference and lands a direct hit on the target.

Or Obi-Wan on the tractor beam controls on Twist of Fate. The Empire sure didn't foresee him being there, gaining Luke & friends an advantage - but on the other hand, Obi-Wan's taking a great risk (which will lead to his death soon). Risk and reward pretty much cancel each other out (the Falcon was supposed to escape eventually anyway, while Obi-Wan being a force ghost is not a bad thing in it's own right). "Discard everything, start a new edge battle" - indeed!

I think it's very thematic, while not something to make the game overly complex. That's why I think edge battles fit right into this game.
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Cracky McCracken
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I ask my 7yo son how Mon Mothma could battle the Star Destroyer Devastator.

"Rebel spies inform her of Devastator's location and she orders the fleet to hunt it down."

Wow. That was a real stretch.
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Patrick Brennan
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Perfect answer though
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Alesander Simancas
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Never ague with a 7 year old. You'll mostly likely won't admit it, but you know (s)he made more sense than you.
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badalchemist wrote:
If you're consistently losing edge battles, maybe the deckbuilding isn't as dumbed down as you think...


I never said I was consistently losing Edge battles. I said I didn't enjoy them.

-Edit-
I also never said the deckbuilding was dumbed down - just that it limited options.
 
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Duncan Idaho
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Figilano wrote:
I think it's very thematic, while not something to make the game overly complex. That's why I think edge battles fit right into this game.


I'm not saying you can't view it as thematic, just that I don't. I also dislike this argument, because by that token, you could argue any game is very thematic if you just use your imagination. I'm more than willing to do that, but I expect the game designer to create a system that suggests these things without having to tell me what he's trying to represent.

The mechanism is literally "compare these dots, and maybe there's an effect or two". Any story you put on top of that is solely coming from you. I'd rather have the game provide some of the story. Otherwise, I could play Uno with Star Wars cards and create the exact same narrative.
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Rayne Smith
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Idaho11 wrote:

Imagine a Boba Fett that, if played into and Edge battle, captured a character. Or Bothan spies that allowed you to control the opponent's first strike, representing them getting some inside info. This would integrate what those battles are supposed to represent into the game!


This is one thing that I really like about edge battles, there is a lot of design space available to make them even more interesting. I think e could definitely see something like what you described here in the future.
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Objective Sets and Edge Battles combined fixes what is so much wrong about card games in general. I absolutely HATE card games, and one of the reasons why stems from drawing one card per turn. You can just get into a crappy card draw and be screwed the rest of the game. Another problem, there are many, many cards I would simply never play. Wasted cards that sit in your collection.

In Star Wars, this never happens since A) Objective Sets require you to take a set of cards, so there's never that single card you never put into your hand and B) Edge Battles make it so that no card ever is a wasted/worthless card. While you may consider that you'd never use the text of the card, the simple fact you can use it in a bluffing Edge Battle makes that card highly valuable.

Exceptionally innovative for a card game IMHO.

-shnar

P.S. I actually think the Edge Battles fit the Star Wars theme nicely too. I typically call the cards name when I reveal, in a, "Ha! Obi-Wan decided this battle required his complete attention!" And it fits into the semi-abstract Star Wars theme being played out.
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Garrett
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Cracky wrote:
I would say SWtCG is a cross between maybe Android: Netrunner (both sides playing Corps) and Rune Age.


Wow, interesting choice of comparisons. I love Rune Age to death and SW:TCG is right up there with it.

I'm curious what it is about SW that reminds you of Rune Age? Same for how SW is like playing as the corp. I'm not disagreeing, but those are really interesting comparisons so I'd like to hear more about your thought process behind them.
 
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shnar wrote:

In Star Wars, this never happens since A) Objective Sets require you to take a set of cards, so there's never that single card you never put into your hand and B) Edge Battles make it so that no card ever is a wasted/worthless card. While you may consider that you'd never use the text of the card, the simple fact you can use it in a bluffing Edge Battle makes that card highly valuable.


I can definitely see those as benefits. However, to me:
1) Forcing you to take bad cards isn't a good solution to the problem of some cards getting permanently seated. And since the great cards in those sets are, at times, balanced by weaker cards they're paired with, this can create a very swing-y first turn or two depending on draw. To me, the objective sets exacerbate the draw problem.
2) The Edge battles are great for cycling cards, I agree. However, the mechanisms itself outside of the ability to cycle cards fall completely flat for me. I'd rather have a way to cycle cards that doesn't involve a blind bid mechanism. Or make the blind bid mechanism more interesting than just counting up dots and maybe doing a damage to an objective.

Quote:

P.S. I actually think the Edge Battles fit the Star Wars theme nicely too. I typically call the cards name when I reveal, in a, "Ha! Obi-Wan decided this battle required his complete attention!" And it fits into the semi-abstract Star Wars theme being played out.


Except that's you putting something into the game that the game actively tells you doesn't exist. The rulebook specifically states that the cards you play into the edge battle are blank except for their force icons - no text, affiliation, etc... So that's not Obi-Wan, according to the game - it's a few icons.

Which is why I have a problem with it - it's a mechanism I would have enjoyed if they had just fleshed it out a bit more. Have some cards with Edge effects that do something during that phase. Instead, we get some banal Fate Cards (imo), and a bunch of icons. It abstracts away the most interesting part of the battle to the point where all the actual events that happen during that part of the game are purely a fabrication of the player, and in no way (or in a very minimal one, at least) supplied by the game. You might as well have a few cards with numbers on them - the game would treat the two in the same manner.
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badalchemist
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Quote:
Have some cards with Edge effects that do something during that phase. Instead, we get some banal Fate Cards (imo), and a bunch of icons.


If you aren't aware, the expansions have been releasing additional kinds of Fate cards (e.g. battle of hoth, echoes of the force, protection, seeds of decay), and the one spoiled from the next cycle that allows you to deploy a pilot mid-engagement could potentially wreck your opponent's plans.
 
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Sven Teuber
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Idaho11 wrote:
You might as well have a few cards with numbers on them - the game would treat the two in the same manner.


If we take out any player imagination and break everything just down to the mechanics, in the very end, almost all cards have just some numbers and icons on them, and you try to play the card with the icons that will reduce the other player's numbers down to zero.

Text-based special abilities? Well, if you take fate cards out of edge battles to prove the point that they are not thematic and just "blanks with dots", you might as well take abilities out of the regular deck to make a point that those are little more than icons and numbers. ;-)

On a more serious note, though: I think a players imagination is a mandatory requirement for any thematic game, because without it, any card is just a piece of paper, and a plastic miniature is just that and not a laser-firing spaceship or the Dark Lord himself.
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Idaho11 wrote:
Except that's you putting something into the game that the game actively tells you doesn't exist. The rulebook specifically states that the cards you play into the edge battle are blank except for their force icons - no text, affiliation, etc... So that's not Obi-Wan, according to the game - it's a few icons.

No, the book says ignore the text, not the name of the card. The theme behind the card is very important. The number of icons is weighted against what the card does, partly due to Edge Battles, but also due to Force Struggles. Obi-Wan has a lot of icons, and it adds to the overall theme (he has a better influence than others).

-shnar
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