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Subject: Assault on Doomrock - project update. Beta rulebook. rss

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Tom Stasiak
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Hello

Just to give few words of update.

We are on schedule for the Essen delivery. Been working pretty hard on both final testing and exporting stuff for print, but it is looking really good now.

Something came up regarding production and some components quantity been shifted. I bet nobody will complain about that though. Basically it turned out that I cannot have big cards for promos. Which means that 2 trait cards which I planned to land as promos just go into the box with associated abilities. : )
Challenge cards were removed to be replaced by small item card promos every indiegogo supporter will receive. The challenge cards will return in a more fleshed out version, integrated with the free print to play challenge expansion.
I also have room for extra 2 big cards (in addition to the 2 setting cards from the stretch goal), and I will make sure that room is exploited.


I would like to show the rulebook in it's current state. Please do not consider it a final version. As a matter of fact the index section is not closed yet and some small bits are missing. The rulebook can be the last thing handed down to print, which means we still have significant amount of time to work on it. I show it now to gather feedback.
http://www.bdgames.pl/dev/rulebook/doomrock_web.pdf

I you have longer comments regarding the rulebook, please send them on my priv.

Thanks for the support everyone. Please spread the word.
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Olivier Prevot
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Right away!
Thanks Tom!
I was so worried to have no update on indiegogo even though we got 2 Stretch Goals.
Will dive right into it!
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Kerstin
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I'm not able to open the file, anyone else?
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Tom Stasiak
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I imagine that for some time an updated version will be uploaded often. During that time the file will be unavailable. Just give it another go.
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Kerstin
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Thanks, now it works
Maybe next time you'll see me, it will be on the indiegogo page then
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Joel Carr
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incredible, thanks for the update Tom!

EDIT:

after a brief read, I think a section/index on dying and death is probably warranted.

can some skills/items heal a person form 0 HP?, or are they out of the battle for good?

do some perils/adventures remove HP form heroes? if so, then what happens to heroes killed this way?

regardless, excellent job so far, cannot wait
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Mike Daneman
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Hi Tom,

Thanks for posting the rules. I would suggest that you post some updates (like your post here) on the Indigogo page as well (even if it's as simple as posting a link to this post). Not everyone participating in the Indigogo campaign monitors BGG, so to someone just participating (or watching the campaign) on Indigogo, it very much looks like the campaign is abandoned - with no updates posted in a long time, no acknowledgement of hit stretch goals. I think everyone on BGG knows that you're committed to getting the game done and things are moving forwards, but on Indigogo it looks somewhat dead.
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Karl Schmidt
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thank you - I look forward to your game
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Tim Patterson
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Quick comments:
Players loose if at any time all..
Should be "lose"

Terminology is not always consistent:
"Adventure map is a row of 3 face up area cards and the face down area
deck."
"Players will also venture forth, exploring new area cards from the map deck..."

As map deck only appears here, it should probably be area deck. Although, map deck might be a better term to use than area deck.

Some of the text could be improved by getting a native English speaker to run through it quickly. On thw whole, it's good, but there are a few places where it could do with a little polishing froma mother-tongue

"Players win the game if they defeat the third encounter."|
You can win an encounter, but you can't defeat one.

"In case when a text on card conflicts with the text of this rulebook, the text on the card always takes precedence."

Would be better as:

"In the case where the text on a card conflicts with the text in this rulebook, the text on the card always takes precedence."

Some things that seem obvious should still be stated. E.g.
"Each player draws a random hero and trait card and places them next to each other. Each players collects:
3 starting ability cards associated with the hero class.
1 starting ability card associated with the trait card."

To select the ability cards, it you must know the hero/trait which would imply you place them face-up. This isn't stated. Also, are there only 3 ability cards associated with each hero class (in which case better to say "The 3 starting ability cards..." or do you get to choose which 3 -in which case how do you do that?

Style wise, try and use numerals and words consistently (one vs. 1).

"Venture forth: Players may pay 1 time to travel to a new area card from the area deck.
When venturing forth follow the order:
• Pay one time"

I think it would help legibility if capitals were used for special types of cards, etc. "Ability Card" instead of "ability card"

Also, I would change "time" to "Time Marker", so above you would not pay one time (which might be confusing - pay a time or pay just once?) but pay one Time Marker. You do use this terminology elsewhere which is clearer.

"In the rare case of running out of these markers, no further
markers are placed. Players decide the distribution."

This isn't clear. If there are no more enemy markers, can we redistribute the ones currently in play?

I would mention that markers are double-sided. Gold markers aren't listed in the components.

Encounter decks - presumably these are indicated by the numbers on the back. You talk about selecting 1 card form each encounter deck to create the encounter deck, which is a bit confusing. Maybe the 1,2,3 decks should be Creature Decks or similar, from which you select to create the Encounter Deck.

When setting up the Adventure Map, you don't actually specify what action is creating the map. It doesn't get explained what the adventure map is until Section 5.

An image of the starting set up would be helpful.


"It ends with failure if at any time, all the heroes are
reduced to zero hit points or if the last time marker
from the setting card is removed, while the Doomrock
card has not yet entered play."

What is the Doomrock card? This is the first (and only!) time it's mentioned.

It also says, you lose if the time markers run out, but then later:

"If heroes ever run
out of time markers, they may finish the current
action, and start any number of new actions that do
not cost time. After that, players must start a battle,
by revealing the top card from the encounter deck."

So do I lose or start a battle?



"Adventure map actions: There are 4 type of actions the party may perform on the world map."

Mixed terminology - Adventure map/world map

"1.TRAVEL...check active global effects for" - end of sentence is cut off - looks like it might be a PDF layout problem.

"Add the LOOT! modifier listed
after the LOOT! keyword and check the loot table for
rewards."

Would be helpful to remind that the modifier and keyword are on the settings card. Maybe the section talking about which Loot table to use should come first as this makes it clearer.

Text under the "Adventure Fourth" example is a bit mixed up - might be PDF rendering?

When I suffer a peril and draw an event- is this the same card, or drawing one card after another? It seems to be the second case.

"Heroes may perform level ups only during CAMP
effect."
Sounds a bit strange, "Heores may only level up while CAMPING" would be better. And then somewhere explain the EFFECT card that allows you to CAMP.
Does the number of ABILITY cards include STARTING ABILITY or just ABILITY? I guess the former or you could not draw abilities and level up for free. Is it clearer to say he pays a silver for each die he has?


"When leveling up, player draws 3 random ability card
from the ability deck and keeps one of these cards."


Should you mention that he can look at the cards - even though it seems obvious he should ?

If this is useful feedback, I can add more later. I did watch the video first so I already have an idea on how the game play works. You probably need a group of complete neophytes look at it and try and play the game.


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Olivier Prevot
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Excellent work tim! cool
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Ben P.
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clickety6 wrote:
Quick comments:
[...]
Terminology is not always consistent:
[...]
native English speaker
[...]
Some things that seem obvious should still be stated.
[...]
Style wise, try and use numerals and words consistently
[...]
Mixed terminology
[...]

I didn't read the rules and I only skimmed your post quickly but I noticed that what I left quoted above is exactly what I would have criticized in general. These are things that can't be stressed enough. Good job!

Since this may be the game I am looking forward to the most this year, I very much hope that it will have good rules. So have some for your efforts
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Tom Stasiak
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Thanks a lot for the feedback so far. Special thanks to Tim, that was very valuable.

I also received some feedback via priv and uploaded a new version, with lot of issues solved.
Some things are easy to fix, others require some thought and/or additional feedback.
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Kerstin
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One thing I noticed while going through the rules:
The "Victory and Loss conditions" to me seem a little bit too hidden in the Adventuring section. I would maybe state them somewhere more prominent (either at the beginning or the very end - at least that's where I usually look for them), summing or listing them all up there shortly.
Something like (and I'm not a native speaker, so my point is mostly about a more prominent placing, not about the exact words):
- Players win if the Doomrock location has been revealed AND the players won the final/third battle.
- Players lose if at any point in the game all heroes are reduced to zero hit points at the same time OR players have used up all time markers of the last Setting card without having Doomrock revealed.

That said, I think it doesn't hurt to also point it out within the subsections where it might be critical, e.g. in the venture forth section there could be a reminder at the end stating: To win the game players have to have Doomrock revealed before the time markers of the last Setting card have been used up.


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Mike Daneman
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Haven't read through the whole thing yet, but have a couple of comments:

On page 4 under "Unexplored Areas" and "Revealed Areas", it says "Pick x cards..." To me this implies that you select which cards you will use, whereas in reality I believe you randomly draw these cards. So I would change "pick" to "draw".

At the top of this same page it lists the number of player "2-4". This seems like and odd place to list the player number. It would probably be better listed somewhere in the introduction.

Regarding "expose" markers, it sounds a bit "off". I think it would better to call them "exposure" markers.

That's it so far.
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Raphael Pigulla
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The examples show a card named Fools Hole, shouldn't that be Fool's Hole (or Fools' Hole)?

"Fools Hole" isn't wrong but it sounds/looks a little odd. To me as a non-native speaker anyway.


Also, the Minion/Reduced Minion markers, as shown in the rulebook, are still very difficult to tell apart. I believe Rhado criticized this as well in his runthrough. Did you not get the chance to change this or is the art in the rulebook simply outdated?
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Tom Stasiak
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I have already acknowledged that the two sides of enemy markers are not different enough. The reduced side have received a more yellowish tint and the changed markers will be included in the rulebook soon enough.
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Olivier Prevot
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madyoss wrote:
I have already acknowledged that the two sides of enemy markers are not different enough. The reduced side have received a more yellowish tint and the changed markers will be included in the rulebook soon enough.
Yes Rahdo mentionned in his videos talking to you about this.
Is it possible for you to put on the first page of your beta rule pdf a version number? Not on the link of course otherwise you would have to redo your link everytime buty just on the first page of the PDF next to Beta Rulebook. The version could be the date with a letter for example.
I am very impatient to play your game which seems so original and funny!
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gautier dhordain
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Cool, a rulebook

I tried to avoid items already mentioned but perhaps you will find duplicates...


Page 1:
You should place some theme introduction at the beginning of the rulebook. Why are we travelling to Doomrock ? Why should we hurry to defeat Doomrock baddies.

The introduction text is lacking some informations about the game. You do not mention area & travelling.

"Called by ***insert fluff***, you venture forth Doomrock mountains to stop ***insert fluff*** from ***insert fluff***.
Travelling through the land of ***insert fluff***, you will explore magnificent and dreadful areas looking for informations and equipments. But be careful, Doomrock lord has been warned of your journey and he has unleashed his forces upon you... You can hear them coming...
Explore ! Train ! Loot ! You do not have much time before battles so use it efficently !
If your party triumph over ennemy assaults, you will face Doomrock lord in the ultimate fight which will decide ***insert fluff*** !

Game objective :
***game objective paragraph as Kerstin mentions it***"

Page 5:
Shouldn't we create a setting deck with 3 setting cards (one for each encounter) ?

Page 6:
You should put a horizontal separator between the text and the card to help the reading.

Page 9:
"Explore current area" you should put card image to show type wilderness or town => wilderness event deck and mountain or Doomrock => mountain event deck. It will be easier to refer to.

Permanent effect text mentions "Events with golden exclamation marks" but the event card do not have any exclamation mark. However it has thick brown cross.

Page 10:
Do we suffer a peril each time we venture forth ? If so, you should specify that "Heroes suffer the PERIL from the ‘Perils of the forest’ effect" come from the Dark forest global effect (with a zoom on the card).
Perhaps you could number venture forth actions and use these numbers in the example.

Page 11:
The die image is not close to its corresponding paragraph.

It is a bit strange to have level up and item explanations before hero explanation. Also item explanation reference ability explanation so I would find it more logical to explain them it reverse order.


I will continue the review this evening.
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gautier dhordain
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Page 12:
Player initiave actions are not mentioned in the overview. Is it intentional to preserve readers ?

As stated in my last post, abilities should have their own paragraph. I find it easier to read and players will be able to use the contents to quickly jump to the corresponding page. The same applies to hero description.

Page 16:
Can you discard a dice without using it ? What happens to dice that cannot be assigned ?

Page 17:
During Minions/Boss activation, should we shuffle the enemy deck when it is empty ?

Page 18:
Reaction example ?

Page 19:
"Reveled expose markers should be placed aside." => "Revealed ..."

In "Damage:" paragraph, it says that you reduce damage by shields and then by armor. The wording is a bit misleading as you may discard shield token to prevent one point of damage as written in page 3. Or shields must be consumed in battle but not on the adventure map ?

Page 20:
"Poisonous stab hits the goblin for 1 damage." => "... for 2 damages."
The heroic token seems to be placed on the card so I though it was used in the first attack...

Page 21:
"The paladins activation is over." => "The paladin activation is over."

During the second minion activation, shouldn't we have drawn a new enemy card ? This is how I understood the minion activation sequence from page 17 ("To perform minion activation • Choose a minion that was not yet activated • Draw an enemy card for that minion")

Page 22:
"After an AI card is revealed, the active player player may announce a redirect" => "After an AI card is revealed, the active player may announce a redirect"

I do not really understand the Redirect explanation. What do you mean by "moving a threat" ?

"but before the expose eeffects are applied." => "but before the expose effects are applied."

Page 24:
"4. Boss activation
Draw an enemy card for the boss."
You should use "Activate the boss" for consistency with minion activation.


I love to see in a rulebook an index. Thanks for it
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Samuel Favre
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Hello,

Just read the rules and have some remarks.

At first, a general remark: why Hit Point and not Health Point ? At first, it was really confusing for me.

p.15: You should explain more in details the setup of ennemies. It took me a while to remark that minions were composed of two tokens (1 "guessed" red + 1 orange) as the second one is difficult to see.
There is the word "armor" in the setup but its explained only later. Might be confusing.
In part 3, it's a bit stupid, but perhaps you can precise that cards with the number next to the cross that matches current number of players won't be used. It's a bit confusing because in many other game you only keep cards that matches current number of players. I think a simple sentence as "remove card and let them in box, they won't be used" is sufficient.

p.16: "During roll phase, a player may spend a dice result of 6 to gain a heroism counter." Suppose I only have 3 dice and first roll 2-3-6. Can I spend a 6 to get a Heroism counter, then reroll all 3 dice ? For me it's unclear if "spend" means "cannot use on a card" or "cannot use for the complete roll".

p.18: I don't understand "If a boss is encountered with random tier I minions, the boss will use his unique enemy deck. Simply draw cards from the boss deck, instead minion deck when activating the boss." Perhaps an example could help.
Battle victory: what happens if there is still minions and victory condition is not achieved ?

p.20: In example expose marker is resolved after damaging. but in p.19 it's written than some expose marker should be resolved before. Perhaps it could be good to change the example.

p.22: "Stolen dice remain on the enemy until end of battle, or until the enemy is defeated." As stolen dice are returned spend, I think it is useless to return it when ennemy is defeated. The rule can be shortened.
"After an AI card is revealed, the active player player may announce a redirect, moving a threat onto an adjacent hero." The word "player" is written twice.


Your game looks gorgeous. Need to receive it :D
 
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Tom Stasiak
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Quote:
As stolen dice are returned spend, I think it is useless to return it when enemy is defeated.


Well if an enemy steals a die it stays on the enemy. You will not be able to roll it next round, unless you defeat the enemy and return the die in previous round. Perhaps it should have been explained better.


Thanks for the questions. Currently very busy with exporting other material for print. Rulebook is handed down last, so it is not a priority right now. Will look into updating it in a couple of days. Until then, please keep the feedback coming. : ]
 
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Barry Siebenthall
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Page 11:

When leveling up, a player draws 3 random ability card cards from the ability deck and keeps one of these cards. Place the remaining cards on the bottom of the ability deck.
 
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Olivier Prevot
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little issue with Venture Forth :
4. Venture forth: Players may pay 1 time to travel to a new area card from the area deck.
When venturing forth follow the order:
• Pay one time
• Discard the leftmost area card along with all attached cards.
• Draw the top area card and place it on the rightmost side of the adventure map.
• Place secret markers on the newly revealed card.
• Move the party marker to the new area card.
• Suffer one PERIL for the newly visited area.
• Draw an event card for the newly visited area.
And then in the example :
Heroes suffer the PERIL from the ‘Perils of the forest’ effect. They draw an event card from the wilderness deck (because Dark forest is a wilderness type card). After that, party needs to draw another
PERIL, because of the unique arrival
global effect of the Dark forest.

What is perils of the forest effect?

Also !
Heroes may never gain more than 7 ability cards from game effects. What does this mean? EAch hero? If so do it include the 4 basic ones? In total divided among the heroes?

expose markers
4. Battle cumulation
After this marker is revealed and the attack is resolved, players must immediately follow these 3 steps:
• Place all previously revealed blank expose markers away from the expose marker pool. These markers will no longer be used in this battle.
• Flip all remaining expose markers (including markers currently revealed), face down.
• Shuffle all the face down expose markers.
Does this impact those that are on heroes/monsters?
 
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Tom Stasiak
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There is an updated version of the rulebook, under the old link:
http://www.bdgames.pl/dev/rulebook/doomrock_web.pdf

Printed rulebook will actually have more room around the page, but I currently have troubles exporting it digitally with all the margins.

This is suppose to be close to the final version. I have to hand it down to print real soon, so any last minute feedback would be greatly appreciated.
 
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gautier dhordain
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Hi Tom,

These minor typos are still present :
Quote:

Page 19:
"Reveled expose markers should be placed aside." => "Revealed ..."
Page 20:
"Poisonous stab hits the goblin for 1 damage." => "... for 2 damages."
Page 21:
"The paladins activation is over." => "The paladin activation is over."
 
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