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Subject: Living Rules? rss

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Geo
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The rules that came with Decision at Elst have many corrections and rules additions compared to the rulebooks contained in the first three Starter Kits.

Shouldn't MMP offer online updated living rules available for free download on their website?

Having different rulebooks, some with missing info/corrections in each SK product only adds to confusing new players...
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That's just not something MMP does with their ASL rules. You could purchase the updated ASLSK#1 rulebook for ten bucks, I guess.
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Cracky McCracken
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MMP is glacial. They're just a small business that seems happy with it's niche and fans. You want living rules and a more dynamic wargaming company? stick with GMT.

Storm Over Dien Bien Phu is my most recent MMP purchase and I was on pre-order for over four years! In that time frame I bought dozens of wargames, but not from MMP. They are constantly out of stock and I will never pre-order from MMP again. I am not comfortable with my personal info languishing around on thier chincy-assed server for years while they finish a complexity level three, area control game. It's disrespectful for MMP to treat it's online customers this way imho.
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Rui Serrabulho
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Cracky wrote:
MMP is glacial. They're just a small business that seems happy with it's niche and fans. You want living rules and a more dynamic wargaming company? stick with GMT.

Storm Over Dien Bien Phu is my most recent MMP purchase and I was on pre-order for over four years! In that time frame I bought dozens of wargames, but not from MMP. They are constantly out of stock and I will never pre-order from MMP again. I am not comfortable with my personal info languishing around on thier chincy-assed server for years while they finish a complexity level three, area control game. It's disrespectful for MMP to treat it's online customers this way imho.


MMP is one of the best company's. We never know the amount of work that they have in bringing us such great war games.
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Geo
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Rindu wrote:
That's just not something MMP does with their ASL rules. You could purchase the updated ASLSK#1 rulebook for ten bucks, I guess.


Yes, i know. But why buy now a new rulebook for 10 bucks which will become obsolete soon as more errors/omissions get discovered or new rules added?

Are we going to buy a new rulebook every few months while living rules are the most convenient way to go?

What MMP is going to lose by providing living rules, as GMT and many companies do? People interested in ASLSK will keep buying their kits for the maps/counters anyway...


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Cracky wrote:
Storm Over Dien Bien Phu is my most recent MMP purchase and I was on pre-order for over four years!

How many of those years were after SoDBP made the cut?

You can only fault MMP so much for customers not preordering a game.
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Todd Pytel
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You're not going to say anything here that hasn't been said before, Geo. Many times before. In the end, you have to decide whether MMP's antiquated business practices are enough of an inconvenience to keep you from ordering their products or not. Either vote with your wallet or shut up, because they're not going to listen to anything you say here.
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tppytel wrote:
Either vote with your wallet or shut up, because they're not going to listen to anything you say here.


Well, then that's not a sign of a "great company" as many here say it is...
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Bruce Murphy
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GeoMan wrote:
tppytel wrote:
Either vote with your wallet or shut up, because they're not going to listen to anything you say here.


Well, then that's not a sign of a "great company" as many here say it is...


You might note that MMP have updated rules downloads for gamers (scs, ocs, &c) and igs games. Then you might recall the ASL is a licensed product from AH/Hasbro where they are more restricted and which form a core of their business.

Then you might want to not listen to the echo chamber of people with a history of being angry at MMP who have themselves not noticed that distinction.

B>
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Bruce Murphy
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GeoMan wrote:
The rules that came with Decision at Elst have many corrections and rules additions compared to the rulebooks contained in the first three Starter Kits.

Shouldn't MMP offer online updated living rules available for free download on their website?

Having different rulebooks, some with missing info/corrections in each SK product only adds to confusing new players...


False. The SK rules books are deliberately staged to not overwhelm new players.

B>
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Merric Blackman
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It should also be noted that MMP don't own ASL. Because Hasbro do, it well may be that MMP are not allowed to publish the rules online.

Cheers!
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Jay Richardson
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GeoMan wrote:
Rindu wrote:
That's just not something MMP does with their ASL rules. You could purchase the updated ASLSK#1 rulebook for ten bucks, I guess.

Yes, i know. But why buy now a new rulebook for 10 bucks which will become obsolete soon as more errors/omissions get discovered or new rules added?

The situation isn't really as bad as you make it out to be. The ASLSK rules are a stable ruleset: no rules have been added or deleted since the ASLSK Expansion Pack #1 rulebook (where a rarely-used rule concerning vehicle movement along woods-roads was deleted and support for one-man turret tanks was added). As a proofreader for the ASLSK rules, I would be *very* surprised if there are ever any future additions/deletions to the core rules.

The special rules found in some modules, such as Decision at Elst's OBA rules, are only intended for use with the module in which they are published, which is why they provided in a separate rulebook instead of being added into the standard rulebook. They are not "additions" to the ASLSK rules in the sense that future modules could use them, or that they could be used with any of the previous modules.

As far as errata updates go, I believe that most of the major problems with the core rules have been identified and fixed. Future updates will likely be limited to relatively minor and obscure items. I can't imagine that we'll ever see (or need) another update to the ASLSK #1 rules, and if you have the core rules from Decision at Elst I think you could ignore all future updates to the core rules and not miss anything of importance.

If the latest rulebook you own is from ASLSK #3 or the Expansion Pack, sure, it would be nice to be able to get the Decision at Elst core rules without having to buy the whole module (if you have no interest in a historical module), but your ASLSK games aren't going to suddenly become unplayable just because a module you don't own has an updated rulebook. Even if your opponent is playing with an updated rulebook and you aren't, you're unlikely to notice any problems.

The situation is not like full ASL, where the ruleset is so huge that errata is on-going and seemingly never-ending. The ASLSK rules, although complex, are limited enough that I think we are close to the point where we could say "No more errata will be needed." Individual players will always have parts of the rulebook that they wish would be rewritten or clarified, but in terms of things that *have* to be fixed, I don't think that there's much left.

None of this means that having living rules posted online wouldn't be nice, but for serious ASLSK players (players who buy most of MMP's ASLSK releases), not having updated rules available online shouldn't be a problem. As to why MMP won't post the ASLSK rules online: I don't have any insight into that, and I'm not going to speculate.
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richfam wrote:
None of this means that having living rules posted online wouldn't be nice, but for serious ASLSK players (players who buy most of MMP's ASLSK releases), not having updated rules available online shouldn't be a problem. As to why MMP won't post the ASLSK rules online: I don't have any insight into that, and I'm not going to speculate.


In my case - my Elst rulebook was badly damaged - online rules would be very helpful.

I am now stuck with just the 3 Starter Kits rules because MMP has no pdf of the Elst rules to provide and also doesn't sell them, so my only option is to ask a friend for a photocopy when i manage to meet him because he is on vacation.

There's no denying that living/online rules are an important part of a company's customer support.
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Bruce Murphy
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It is quite a modern thing to make rules available online and yet people have been quite happy with many wargame companies for many years before that.

B>
 
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thepackrat wrote:
It is quite a modern thing to make rules available online and yet people have been quite happy with many wargame companies for many years before that.

B>


Nice logical thinking!

Then let's all go back to the days we waited for a few months to get a reply by snail mail or for a new expansion/module to finally arrive at our local store...

shake
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Cracky wrote:
MMP is glacial. They're just a small business that seems happy with it's niche and fans. You want living rules and a more dynamic wargaming company? stick with GMT.
GMT does have living rules - but not for all its games.
MMP (as many others) doesn't.
Cracky wrote:
Storm Over Dien Bien Phu is my most recent MMP purchase and I was on pre-order for over four years! In that time frame I bought dozens of wargames, but not from MMP. They are constantly out of stock and I will never pre-order from MMP again. I am not comfortable with my personal info languishing around on thier chincy-assed server for years while they finish a complexity level three, area control game. It's disrespectful for MMP to treat it's online customers this way imho.
MMP changed their preorder politics - i.e. when offered on pre-order, the game is ready to be produced.
However, a preorder can take time to be transformed in a publication, as the number of preorders must reach a P#.
Would you have prefered MMP to cancel any idea of producing the game say, after six months?
I have been waiting quite a long time for GMT P500 games too.
It has nothing to do with MMP or GMT: it has all to do with the P# format... and the customers' interests.

Edit : fixed quoted parts.
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GeoMan wrote:
But why buy now a new rulebook for 10 bucks which will become obsolete soon as more errors/omissions get discovered or new rules added?
Errata have been minor.
The 10th anniversary SK1's revised rulebook is quite definitive IMO.
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GeoMan wrote:
In my case - my Elst rulebook was badly damaged - online rules would be very helpful.
Was it upon recieving the game?
You can call MMP for a replacement in that case (they do things fine).

Otherwise, I personally scan rules of all my games (with OCR when possible).
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Bruce Murphy
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Robin wrote:
Cracky wrote:
MMP is glacial. They're just a small business that seems happy with it's niche and fans. You want living rules and a more dynamic wargaming company? stick with GMT.
GMT does have living rules - but not for all its games.
MMP (as many others) doesn't.

They do have updated rules available for some of their games, just not the ones licenced from Hasbro.

B>
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Bruce Murphy
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GeoMan wrote:
thepackrat wrote:
It is quite a modern thing to make rules available online and yet people have been quite happy with many wargame companies for many years before that.

B>


Nice logical thinking!

Then let's all go back to the days we waited for a few months to get a reply by snail mail or for a new expansion/module to finally arrive at our local store...

:shake:


Think of how many more times youd' get the games you had played. Regardless, to assert that this has somehow become essential is entitlement.

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Jens Kaufmann
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The OP is a well known serial complainer ...sauron
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Tarmahaan wrote:
The OP is a well known serial complainer ...sauron


Or... serial killer, maybe?

I would never complain for something i got for free, but since i pay - and wargames are not exactly cheap - i certainly expect a certain level of support.

Strange, isn't it?



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Bruce Murphy
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MMP have pretty good support. You aren't asking the right questions. "Shouldn't they do something they are not permitted to do" doesn't seem like the right question, particularly when you deliberately or through oversight leave out the second part.

B>
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GeoMan wrote:
Strange, isn't it?
What is strange is:
- either your deficient logics (as you don't take the P# preorder factor in account)
- or your bad faith (as you seem to want to bash MMP at any cost)
- or both whistle
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geoman wrote:
Yes, i know. But why buy now a new rulebook for 10 bucks which will become obsolete soon as more errors/omissions get discovered or new rules added?

Are we going to buy a new rulebook every few months while living rules are the most convenient way to go?


I don't believe that this is a good argument.

I don't see any need for living rules, the changes in the updated rulebook were fairly minor, and collected over 10 years. As mentioned above, I don't think that we'll see any significant further changes. I'm pretty sure that the errata is posted. I consider the rules to be pretty static at this point.

Personally I would consider the rules set to be fairly valuable intellectual property. While it's great that some are posting their rules online, I have no problem with someone choosing not to post the rules, and having people buy them with games.


If your rules arrived damaged, MMP will replace them, they've been very good at that. If you damaged them, it's like any other game component, they shouldn't be on the hook for replacing. MMP is a very small company. They cannot operate like GMT.
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