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Subject: Will someone explain just what is messed up with the Kremlin reprint? rss

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Jon Baxter
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So far from the sounds of it the team that reprinted Kremlin included two drunk dogs, a blind cat, and an elephant with amnesia. laugh

Seriously I've heard the board is wrong, the rules are wrong, the cards are wrong, is that pretty much it- everything is wrong?

I'm hoping that's not the case as the publisher should be more than embarrassed. whistle

So what is wrong and how can it be fixed (I noticed some files but they neglect to be specific of what they fix if anything)?
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Daniel Halasz
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- The board has a little misprint at the top. Not a big deal, but ugly.
- The rules are very poorly written
- There are only 5 dice and 5 player aid in the box, instead of 6. Not a big deal.
- Some new cards are misprinted, but the substitutions were included in my box.
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Stephen Eckman
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fisha wrote:
- The rules are very poorly written

But you know some Geek is going to fix that!
Kremlin Rules, re-write, new edition
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Jon Baxter
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Well I'm a bit shocked actually. surprise

Frankly not posting the rules and getting some feedback originally was a huge mistake, and muddling them up so bad is quite shocking. Pretty sad state of affairs, I'm going to say the 2 drunk dogs are responsible for that.

I've seen the re-write of the rules so that's coming along very nicely- good work on that. thumbsup

My copy of the game came with 1 die and 1 player sheet. The missing dice is not a huge issue of course, however I still want my dice- they were paid for. Missing player aides also not good, missing one is not horrible, only getting one is horrible, still you only really need one... I'd like what I paid for though. The responsibility of course goes to the elephant with amnesia.

Frankly card mistakes happen, still so many of them, at least they were corrected. The board mistake is really unforgivable- how can someone create it and not notice the huge mistake... it's so glaringly wrong that I can't believe it wasn't done (as well as the cards) by a blind cat.

I loved AH Kremlin, quite frankly I forgot how much until I ordered this version, I suppose the AH version was just out of my price range, I would be very happy except for the problems above. The only saving grace I suppose is that I know how to fix the problems.

I want to thank those that have taken the time to work on the updated rules, the printable board addition (*cough* with the typo), and the printable player aide. meeple

I do want to say that given how the end result was that I would never back a project by Jolly Roger Games. The best thing about the game is the low price (which is amazingly low really), and now we know why.

If anyone wants to contact them I found this on their website;

Address:
Jolly Roger Games
Address 1


Telephone:
123456789

Ha!


I suppose maybe the webform for contacting them might work.
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bestia immonda
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I suggest backing stuff from your canadians fellows of Valley Games aka Radiant etc etc.
I'm sure you'll be VERY MUCH satisfied with Jolly Roger then.


PS: Oh, thanks for posting the address/telephone, I'm pretty sure nobody could ever get it without you posting it here! Thanks! shake
 
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Jon Baxter
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nicktaruffi wrote:
I suggest backing stuff from your canadians fellows of Valley Games aka Radiant etc etc.
I'm sure you'll be VERY MUCH satisfied with Jolly Roger then.


PS: Oh, thanks for posting the address/telephone, I'm pretty sure nobody could ever get it without you posting it here! Thanks! shake


Are you confused, none of that makes any sense. Do you own shares in Jolly Rogers?

P.S. You are welcome

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bestia immonda
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Man, you are even thumbing your own thread.
This is silly.
Shame on you.
shake
 
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The Game Steward
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Yeah, the problems with the game seem quite minor overall. The error on the board is (slightly) annoying, but mostly aesthetic. Same with the cards, but JRG provided errata decks for the misprinted cards, and the game is completely playable overall.

But more than that, the owner of JRG, Jim Dietz, has been completely transparent about everything that has happened through the campaign. On that basis alone, I give him a big thumbs up compared to many KS project creators. It hasn't been a perfect campaign, but if I knew then what I know now, I would pledge for Kremlin all over again.

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Tim Earl
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I can be a demanding consumer, but I'm also willing to cut Jim some slack here. The whole campaign was very transparent.

I first heard of Jolly Roger when they printed Founding Fathers (an underrated gem), and they dealt with the one component issue (flimsy cards) quickly and effectively. When I started compiling a FAQ for the game, Jim helped me answer some of the rules questions people had.

I never got to play Kremlin back in the day and almost backed it, but in the end my anti-Kickstarter attitude won out. But it's at the top of my to-buy list, even at the entirely reasonable full retail price.
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Jon Baxter
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I'm not sure Id say the company is completely transparent when they haven't disclosed the problems to distributors and retailers. Haven't bothered to put a sticker on the game saying what the problems are so customers don't waste their money.

Could they have done worse, sure, could they have done better, hard not to.

I suppose they could print new boards to those that bought the game, as well as provide extra dice and player aides as well. If they did that then they'd be acting responsibly.

If they don't they can expect returns from retailers and distributors.

 
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Tim Earl
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jgbaxter wrote:
Haven't bothered to put a sticker on the game saying what the problems are so customers don't waste their money.


Please provide an example of any game publisher ever doing this.
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The Game Steward
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Other than the board misprint, what problems need to be disclosed? Errata decks are included. And I though only KS backers got the extra dice and player aids. In that light, Kremlin is just fine to sell at retail. Am I missing something?
 
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Jon Baxter
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cheng wrote:
jgbaxter wrote:
Haven't bothered to put a sticker on the game saying what the problems are so customers don't waste their money.


Please provide an example of any game publisher ever doing this.


Publishers generally don't mess up this bad, the problems are usually one off issues that catch a publisher unawares, they will fix the problem when you contact them.

From what I've seen when there is a problem in a published game that is mostly universal, you can usually contact them to fix it, or they fix it proactively... in some cases they will send out fix kits to retailers and/or distributors.

One example would be the warping tiles of Betrayal at House on the Hill from WotC.

Mistakes happen in publishing, good companies fix the problem.

tl;dr A company needn't put a warning label on their defective game if they FIX the problem (usually with a fix kit they send to distributors for free).
 
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Tim Earl
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jgbaxter wrote:

Publishers generally don't mess up this bad, the problems are usually one off issues that catch a publisher unawares, they will fix the problem when you contact them.

From what I've seen when there is a problem in a published game that is mostly universal, you can usually contact them to fix it, or they fix it proactively... in some cases they will send out fix kits to retailers and/or distributors.

One example would be the warping tiles of Betrayal at House on the Hill from WotC.

Mistakes happen in publishing, good companies fix the problem.

tl;dr A company needn't put a warning label on their defective game if they FIX the problem (usually with a fix kit they send to distributors for free).


Betrayal had no warning label, so only those who contacted them got the fix.

Risk:Onyx, a high-priced deluxe edition, was missing one of the sea connections, a major error which was never addressed.

If it's big enough to warrant a fix, most game publishers will do that, but your label suggestion was just ridiculous.
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Jon Baxter
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GreenLaborMike wrote:
Other than the board misprint, what problems need to be disclosed? Errata decks are included. And I though only KS backers got the extra dice and player aids. In that light, Kremlin is just fine to sell at retail. Am I missing something?


Realistically the main issue for most people will be the board. That alone will get many retail customers returning the game.

The player aides might be the next most, of course as I mentioned one is likely sufficient.


It all really sucks as it otherwise looks very nice in design.

I'm more than surprised that it was knowingly shipped to distributors and retailers with production issues.

 
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Jon Baxter
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cheng wrote:

If it's big enough to warrant a fix, most game publishers will do that, but your label suggestion was just ridiculous.


That's your opinion and you are entitled to it.

Since there is no fix for Kremlin and the company knowingly shipped defective product to distributors, retailers, and customers, I stand by my point that they should fix any problems.

In regards to Betrayal I believe the company made the information known on their website and to distributors and retailers.
 
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Rami Finkelshtein
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I still have a first edition game of Chaos in the Old World which has multiple parts with text being wrong WAY worse than the issue here (where a tiny bit of text is not visible...but is correct...and the original information is available in the rulebook and it is the same information)

Yet again this is not the first time and definitely not the worst we have seen a mistake on the board. To me the worse part of this product is the rules but yet again so many other games I know have been shipped with bad rules and luckly here there is both a geek project to improve them and hell you can just download the old AH rules and those still work with 0 modification.

This is not the worst atrocity i have seen a boardgame publisher commit not by a longshot. Yet again if you don't like it I am sure you can sell the game or trade it away for something of equal value that you want. Because as you said everyone can have their opinion but treating this as the worst thing ever and that it absolutely ruins the game is a little overkill.

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Jon Baxter
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I don't mean it's the worst thing ever, I'm mainly surprised it was shipped undisclosed to distributors and retailers knowingly defective. I'm disappointed more than anything.

The idea that there are DIY fix it solutions on BGG is great, that means nothing unfortunately to the majority of gamers who don't use BGG (tragedy I know).

I grant you there have been some crazy worse situations over the years.

My personal favourite insanity is the mismatched ship colours from Twilight Imperium 3 Shards of the Throne. FFG said they were (obviously) printed separately so the colours therefore aren't surprising to be different... it's one of the most lame responses FFG gave for a product I've heard- and they are a stellar publisher. laugh

Oh and the Tales of the Arabian Knights missing travel connection, that was annoying as our group didn't even notice it for a long time. whistle
 
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jgbaxter wrote:
I don't mean it's the worst thing ever, I'm mainly surprised it was shipped undisclosed to distributors and retailers knowingly defective. I'm disappointed more than anything.


How do you know it wasn't disclosed to distributors? Maybe they accepted it knowing the only real flaw was the misprint on the board?
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Jon Baxter
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GreenLaborMike wrote:
jgbaxter wrote:
I don't mean it's the worst thing ever, I'm mainly surprised it was shipped undisclosed to distributors and retailers knowingly defective. I'm disappointed more than anything.


How do you know it wasn't disclosed to distributors? Maybe they accepted it knowing the only real flaw was the misprint on the board?


The two distributors and four retailers I've talked to recently weren't informed.

Check with your retailers, see what they say.
 
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Gary Libby
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I guess my standards are not quite as stringent as yours. I paid $25 on Kickstarter and feel that it was damn good quality for that price. Yes, the board mistake is big, but it can be dealt with. Crappy rules are certainly not that uncommon. I have already received my errata cards, so that is cool. As for the dice and charts, I could give a shit. The old AH version came with one very crappy die and no separate play aides. The charts were printed on the back of the basic and advanced rule book. We seemed to make out just fine with that arrangement. Oh and AH had its own large issue with errata in its various games, like most companies still do.

I bought my original AH copy of Kremlin back when it came out in the late 80s and while I don't remember exactly what I paid, I bet it was close to $20 or $25 with tax at a game store. Now I get a sweet updated copy for $25! You can't beat that. Most Kickstarter games are $50-$70, easily.

As far as Jolly Rogers is concerned I have been impressed from the get go of the openness of their Kickstarter. I'll back any game that looks interesting to me from them as long as they keep up the good work that I have seen so far.

Of course this is just my opinion, but I feel we really ought to cut then some slack on this. Shit happens.

Also, if Valley Games is reading this, I'm still waiting for my unbroken set of Generals for Hannibal!
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Rich Keiser
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More than happy with my copy of Kremlin. Minor issues... rulebooks suck sometimes.

For $18 plus shipping, a friggin' bargain as far as I'm concerned.

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Ezra Nuite

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The rulebook for this game more than sucks. It is flat out missing rules. Without the Internet the game would very nearly be unplayable with the current rules.
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Benjamin Kindt
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If the publisher were to post official, corrected/upgraded living rules, I'd be at peace.

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William Ford
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Regarding the error on the board, there is a vote for "little misprint at the top," a vote for "unforgivable" and "glaringly wrong," and a vote for "(slightly) annoying, but mostly aesthetic."

But what is the error?

I'm a big fan of the Avalon Hill version, and while I just took a brief look at the Jolly Roger version, I'm not sure what this error is.
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