United States
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
"that's a smith and wesson, and you've had your six"
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
That's great the responsibility has been firmly established on both sides.

But kids are still dead.

Yay, them.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MWChapel wrote:
That's great the responsibility has been firmly established on both sides.

But kids are still dead.

Yay, them.

So the sooner Hamas is stopped the better.
14 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chad Ellis
United States
Brookline
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
bjlillo wrote:
aren't as honest as Bill Clinton


Awfully high bar you're setting for us, isn't it?

But yes, Clinton is right. The shame is that the Clintons have shown themselves to be so Machiavellian that I can't help but think that him saying this now has less to do with an elder statesman speaking important truths than a political strategist making a tactical move to shore up an ally's standing with a key voting and fundraising demographic.
10 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave G
United States
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
El Chupacabratwurst
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I see BJ railing about "the leftists" who disagree with this. I don't see any leftists disagreeing, though. What are you on about?
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chad Ellis
United States
Brookline
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I guess what BJ may be referring to is that many of us on the left (I'm sure BJ considers me a leftist, although I of course consider myself moderate) also think that Israel carries some blame in the conflict. For example, I think some of Israel's settlement moves have also been cynical power-plays that disrupt whatever chance their was for productive negotiation.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Chad_Ellis wrote:
I guess what BJ may be referring to is that many of us on the left (I'm sure BJ considers me a leftist, although I of course consider myself moderate) also think that Israel carries some blame in the conflict. For example, I think some of Israel's settlement moves have also been cynical power-plays that disrupt whatever chance their was for productive negotiation.

"Settlements" are a chimera of the media. I've heard with my own ears Tel-Aviv and Jerusalem called "Jewish settlements". Jewish and Arab communities are thoroughly mixed throughout the area and have been for thousands of years, except for the period between 1948 and 1967 when Jordan kicked out all Jews from the Shomron etc. In 1967, people went back to where they'd lived before mostly and so again Arabs and Jews-- as well as other people-- are neighbors everywhere in the region. "Building settlements" most often refers to fixing roofs etc., much less frequently to genuinely new construction.
10 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave G
United States
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
El Chupacabratwurst
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Chad_Ellis wrote:
I guess what BJ may be referring to is that many of us on the left (I'm sure BJ considers me a leftist, although I of course consider myself moderate) also think that Israel carries some blame in the conflict. For example, I think some of Israel's settlement moves have also been cynical power-plays that disrupt whatever chance their was for productive negotiation.


Oh. I figured the fact that Israel shares the blame for the nonsense in the middle east (in general, if not this specific round of hostility) was obvious to everyone, even BJ.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chad Ellis
United States
Brookline
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I was very deliberate in saying "some".
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
How dare we object to the equivalent of anti-aircraft missiles provided to Hamas by Iran being fired throughout our territory by the hundreds every day. I'm sure that's our fault.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg Michealson
United States
Maple Grove
Minnesota
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
whac3 wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
I guess what BJ may be referring to is that many of us on the left (I'm sure BJ considers me a leftist, although I of course consider myself moderate) also think that Israel carries some blame in the conflict. For example, I think some of Israel's settlement moves have also been cynical power-plays that disrupt whatever chance their was for productive negotiation.

"Settlements" are a chimera of the media. I've heard with my own ears Tel-Aviv and Jerusalem called "Jewish settlements". Jewish and Arab communities are thoroughly mixed throughout the area and have been for thousands of years, except for the period between 1948 and 1967 when Jordan kicked out all Jews from the Shomron etc. In 1967, people went back to where they'd lived before mostly and so again Arabs and Jews-- as well as other people-- are neighbors everywhere in the region. "Building settlements" most often refers to fixing roofs etc., much less frequently to genuinely new construction.


So the media is lying once again? Drew, chalk it up. That's lie 12420.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Chad_Ellis wrote:
I was very deliberate in saying "some".

Yes and it's still a distortion at best. Settlements are not the issue and never have been. If they were, the PLO would not have been created in 1965.

At the moment, the issue is that Israel and the PA are slowly but surely maneuvering towards an inevitable deal no one will be completely happy with but everyone can live with.Hamas has been excluded because they insist on no peace under any terms. What Hamas wants is a seat at any negotiating table. What Egypt, Israel and the PA want is for Hamas to either accept PA leadership and therefore accept any deal signed and abide by it or if they refuse to simply cease to exist in all meaningful political terms. Notice that Abbas was among the first to condemn Hamas.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mrspank wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
I guess what BJ may be referring to is that many of us on the left (I'm sure BJ considers me a leftist, although I of course consider myself moderate) also think that Israel carries some blame in the conflict. For example, I think some of Israel's settlement moves have also been cynical power-plays that disrupt whatever chance their was for productive negotiation.

"Settlements" are a chimera of the media. I've heard with my own ears Tel-Aviv and Jerusalem called "Jewish settlements". Jewish and Arab communities are thoroughly mixed throughout the area and have been for thousands of years, except for the period between 1948 and 1967 when Jordan kicked out all Jews from the Shomron etc. In 1967, people went back to where they'd lived before mostly and so again Arabs and Jews-- as well as other people-- are neighbors everywhere in the region. "Building settlements" most often refers to fixing roofs etc., much less frequently to genuinely new construction.


So the media is lying once again? Drew, chalk it up. That's lie 12420.

They're not so much lying as clueless and accepting statements made by Hamas and the PA without any serious critical examination.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Josh
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hamas is a messy organization filled with people ranging from psychotic anti-jewish fanatics to hopeless people siding with the only game in town. No one is sympathetic with psychos. The sympathy is for people who don't see another way out, because we don't see a way out either. Exactly what are people in Gaza, not fanatics just people, supposed to do and look towards for growth and advancement? They're shields for one side and collateral for the other. I'm not sure any see any future for themselves if Hamas isn't there. No one else *seems* to be looking out for them, evdn if it is in a twisted abusive way.

Maybe there is something we are missing.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chad Ellis
United States
Brookline
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
whac3 wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
I was very deliberate in saying "some".

Yes and it's still a distortion at best. Settlements are not the issue and never have been.


Since I haven't claimed that they were "the issue" I'm not sure what point you're responding to.

As to whether some settlement moves have been cynical power-plays, we may have to disagree on that.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Josh
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
bjlillo wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
Hamas is a messy organization filled with people ranging from psychotic anti-jewish fanatics to hopeless people siding with the only game in town. No one is sympathetic with psychos. The sympathy is for people who don't see another way out, because we don't see a way out either. Exactly what are people in Gaza, not fanatics just people, supposed to do and look towards for growth and advancement? They're shields for one side and collateral for the other. I'm not sure any see any future for themselves if Hamas isn't there. No one else *seems* to be looking out for them, evdn if it is in a twisted abusive way.

Maybe there is something we are missing.


Hamas' Charter calls for the destruction of Israel and replacing it with an Arab state. Anyone with membership in that organization is not a partner for peace.


If one third of gaza's workforce being unemployed didn't make a strong case for shoot-or-starve I would entirely agree with you. It's not suburban US they're recruiting from.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Les Marshall
United States
Woodinville
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
BJ, you're quickly becoming my favorite conservative poster on BGG. But....

What's your point? Hamas is bad? Those you label leftists are too far gone to even agree with a former Democratic banner carrier? If you disagree with
Clinton AND your a leftist, you must be stupid?

It's more nuanced than this and you know it.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict didn't start last week or last year. It's been going on for decades and it isn't one sided. The Palestinians lost their homeland and they have ambivalent allies at best. Given Israel's flouting of various UN accords regarding borders, continued development in occupied areas and robust security containment, it's little wonder that no few of them have become radicalized. Hamas is an unfortunate symptom of this ongoing conflict, much like the IRA was.

Clinton's point, assuming he wasn't merely manipulating (as Chad suggests), is that the CURRENT round of violence has been provoked by Hamas and this is non-constructive (inexcusable). He's correct but, he isn't speaking to the historical state of affairs.

The tragedy is that extremists both in Israel and in Palestine don't want peace on anything resembling reasonable terms. The extremists point fingers at each other for fresh outrages and continuing the conflict while the more numerous moderate elements in both populations watch their blood and treasure drain away.

In short, you could expunge Hamas tomorrow. Absent some meaningful solutions, another generation of radicals is waiting to be born, to renew a surely lopsided power struggle.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Shadrach wrote:
Hamas is a messy organization filled with people ranging from psychotic anti-jewish fanatics to hopeless people siding with the only game in town. No one is sympathetic with psychos. The sympathy is for people who don't see another way out, because we don't see a way out either. Exactly what are people in Gaza, not fanatics just people, supposed to do and look towards for growth and advancement? They're shields for one side and collateral for the other. I'm not sure any see any future for themselves if Hamas isn't there. No one else *seems* to be looking out for them, evdn if it is in a twisted abusive way.

Maybe there is something we are missing.

No, Hamas is a genocidal and ruthless organization which ascribes to a radical interpretation of Islam and avowedly will accept no peace with Israel under any terms.

The "Palestinians" started as mostly a group of such fanatics but the long bitter reality and the arising of further generations of people have caused most "Palestinians" to improve their grip on reality. They still don't want ot be Israelis since those who do continuously apply for Israeli citizenship and are typically granted it.

This current war is about whether or not the people insisting on no-deal whatsoever get to set the agenda. That's why the PA and Egypt both support Israel. Hamas is isolated and getting more so.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dan Schaeffer
United States
Unspecified
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
bjlillo wrote:
Eliminating Hamas from any sort of power is a prerequisite to any kind of meaningful peace agreement.


This is true. But knowing that Hamas is perfectly willing to use civilians as human shields, and that every civilian death in Gaza helps to radicalize more residents in favor of Hamas's viewpoint, are airstrikes the most effective way to eliminate them from power? Judging by the number of rocket attacks into Israel, they don't seem to be a very effective way to eliminate Hamas's military strength.

I strongly suspect that a ground war is inevitable, which may be less problematic in some ways than air strikes - even with early-warning "knocking on the door" and telephone calls to evacuate target sites, bombs are 100% indiscriminate about who they kill; soldiers are less so. Unfortunately, it puts Israeli soldiers at risk, too, and can still have the effect of radicalizing people.

An external military pounding doesn't seem likely to do anything beyond pushing Hamas underground and in the best case forcing them to regroup for a little while. It is likely that the only way to really get Hamas out of power is for the Palestinians to do it themselves, and I'm not sure I can see a way to get that to happen at the moment.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Josh
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Golux13 wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
Eliminating Hamas from any sort of power is a prerequisite to any kind of meaningful peace agreement.


This is true. But knowing that Hamas is perfectly willing to use civilians as human shields, and that every civilian death in Gaza helps to radicalize more residents in favor of Hamas's viewpoint, are airstrikes the most effective way to eliminate them from power? Judging by the number of rocket attacks into Israel, they don't seem to be a very effective way to eliminate Hamas's military strength.

I strongly suspect that a ground war is inevitable, which may be less problematic in some ways than air strikes - even with early-warning "knocking on the door" and telephone calls to evacuate target sites, bombs are 100% indiscriminate about who they kill; soldiers are less so. Unfortunately, it puts Israeli soldiers at risk, too, and can still have the effect of radicalizing people.

An external military pounding doesn't seem likely to do anything beyond pushing Hamas underground and in the best case forcing them to regroup for a little while. It is likely that the only way to really get Hamas out of power is for the Palestinians to do it themselves, and I'm not sure I can see a way to get that to happen at the moment.


I've tried to ask this before with no answers, maybe I used the wrong words If Hamas magically vanished tomorrow, what do the Palestinians have to look forward to? What advantage do they gain ftom it vanishing. The trsde of money/bombing being a murky gain/loss thing.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Walt
United States
Orange County
California
flag msg tools
Before terraforming Mars, Surviving Mars is required: Paradox Interactive; Steam.
badge
Please contact me about board gaming in Orange County.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Shadrach wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
Hamas' Charter calls for the destruction of Israel and replacing it with an Arab state. Anyone with membership in that organization is not a partner for peace.

If one third of gaza's workforce being unemployed didn't make a strong case for shoot-or-starve I would entirely agree with you. It's not suburban US they're recruiting from.

"Shoot-or-starve"? What? They're shooting at deer and missing?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Josh
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Tall_Walt wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
Hamas' Charter calls for the destruction of Israel and replacing it with an Arab state. Anyone with membership in that organization is not a partner for peace.

If one third of gaza's workforce being unemployed didn't make a strong case for shoot-or-starve I would entirely agree with you. It's not suburban US they're recruiting from.

"Shoot-or-starve"? What? They're shooting at deer and missing?


You aren't that thick.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Les Marshall
United States
Woodinville
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
bjlillo wrote:
Rulesjd wrote:
BJ, you're quickly becoming my favorite conservative poster on BGG. But....


Why thank you. You are too kind.

Quote:
What's your point? Hamas is bad? Those you label leftists are too far gone to even agree with a former Democratic banner carrier? If you disagree with
Clinton AND your a leftist, you must be stupid?


Appeal to an authority who is generally well-respected in current American lefty circles.

Quote:
It's more nuanced than this and you know it.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict didn't start last week or last year. It's been going on for decades and it isn't one sided. The Palestinians lost their homeland and they have ambivalent allies at best. Given Israel's flouting of various UN accords regarding borders, continued development in occupied areas and robust security containment, it's little wonder that no few of them have become radicalized. Hamas is an unfortunate symptom of this ongoing conflict, much like the IRA was.

Clinton's point, assuming he wasn't merely manipulating (as Chad suggests), is that the CURRENT round of violence has been provoked by Hamas and this is non-constructive (inexcusable). He's correct but, he isn't speaking to the historical state of affairs.

The tragedy is that extremists both in Israel and in Palestine don't want peace on anything resembling reasonable terms. The extremists point fingers at each other for fresh outrages and continuing the conflict while the more numerous moderate elements in both populations watch their blood and treasure drain away.

In short, you could expunge Hamas tomorrow. Absent some meaningful solutions, another generation of radicals is waiting to be born, to renew a surely lopsided power struggle.


Eliminating Hamas from any sort of power is a prerequisite to any kind of meaningful peace agreement. Every time Israel has extended their hand in peace, they have been rejected. This would explain why:

From the charter document of Hamas on "peaceful solutions:"

Quote:
Peaceful Solutions, Initiatives and International Conferences:

[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: "Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware."

From time to time a clamoring is voiced, to hold an International Conference in search for a solution to the problem. Some accept the idea, others reject it, for one reason or another, demanding the implementation of this or that conditions, as a prerequisite for agreeing to convene the Conference or for participating in it. But the Islamic Resistance Movement, which is aware of the [prospective] parties to this conference, and of their past and present positions towards the problems of the Muslims, does not believe that those conferences are capable of responding to demands, or of restoring rights or doing justice to the oppressed. Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the nonbelievers as arbitrators in the lands of Islam. Since when did the Unbelievers do justice to the Believers?

"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no protector or helper from Allah." (Sura 2 - The Cow - verse 120).

There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honorable Hadith:

"The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His worshippers. It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation." (Told by Tabarani, who is traceable in ascending order of traditionaries to Muhammed, and by Ahmed whose chain of transmission is incomplete. But it is bound to be a true hadith, for both story tellers are reliable. Allah knows best).




A) Not all "Lefties" are monolithic. Some of them are as suspicious of Clinton as conservatives. In fact, no few lefties are regretting the Clintonian legacy of NAFTA.

B) Okay. So, work to eliminate Hamas as a factor. But, how? And what happens if you succeed? Many of the "solutions" to Hamas would result in further radicalization. In addition, a power vacuum with no concrete and enforceable peace plan isn't a guarantee of anything better (i.e as happened in Afghanistan in the post Soviet era).

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Les Marshall
United States
Woodinville
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
bjlillo wrote:
Rulesjd wrote:
A) Not all "Lefties" are monolithic. Some of them are as suspicious of Clinton as conservatives. In fact, no few lefties are regretting the Clintonian legacy of NAFTA.

B) Okay. So, work to eliminate Hamas as a factor. But, how? And what happens if you succeed? Many of the "solutions" to Hamas would result in further radicalization. In addition, a power vacuum with no concrete and enforceable peace plan isn't a guarantee of anything better (i.e as happened in Afghanistan in the post Soviet era).


I get that not all lefties are monolithic. As their most successful president in the last 50 years, Clinton should get some modicum of respect from a great number of them though.

Fuck if I know how to solve this mess. Lots of people smarter than I am have tried and failed. I was an advocate of Operation Sand to Glass when I was in the military but people kept whining about how wrong genocide was.


I tell you BJ, there are some fuckheads here, in Israel and in the greater Middle East that want this conflict to go on indefinitely. It makes for profit in some sectors and hot campaign issues.

Maybe if the oil dries up we can stop giving a shit about the region.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Shadrach wrote:
Golux13 wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
Eliminating Hamas from any sort of power is a prerequisite to any kind of meaningful peace agreement.


This is true. But knowing that Hamas is perfectly willing to use civilians as human shields, and that every civilian death in Gaza helps to radicalize more residents in favor of Hamas's viewpoint, are airstrikes the most effective way to eliminate them from power? Judging by the number of rocket attacks into Israel, they don't seem to be a very effective way to eliminate Hamas's military strength.

I strongly suspect that a ground war is inevitable, which may be less problematic in some ways than air strikes - even with early-warning "knocking on the door" and telephone calls to evacuate target sites, bombs are 100% indiscriminate about who they kill; soldiers are less so. Unfortunately, it puts Israeli soldiers at risk, too, and can still have the effect of radicalizing people.

An external military pounding doesn't seem likely to do anything beyond pushing Hamas underground and in the best case forcing them to regroup for a little while. It is likely that the only way to really get Hamas out of power is for the Palestinians to do it themselves, and I'm not sure I can see a way to get that to happen at the moment.


I've tried to ask this before with no answers, maybe I used the wrong words If Hamas magically vanished tomorrow, what do the Palestinians have to look forward to? What advantage do they gain ftom it vanishing. The trsde of money/bombing being a murky gain/loss thing.

Abbas is playing the international game of politics. Israel has side-lined its people who want no deal under any circumstances, and now the "Palestinians" must do the same. That's what this war is really about. This is an object lesson by Israel, Egypt and the PA to the extremists that if they refuse to play ball, this is what is goign to happen to them.

Once Hamas is gone, subjugated and/or sidelined, a peace deal is only a matter of time.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Walt
United States
Orange County
California
flag msg tools
Before terraforming Mars, Surviving Mars is required: Paradox Interactive; Steam.
badge
Please contact me about board gaming in Orange County.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Shadrach wrote:
Tall_Walt wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
Hamas' Charter calls for the destruction of Israel and replacing it with an Arab state. Anyone with membership in that organization is not a partner for peace.

If one third of gaza's workforce being unemployed didn't make a strong case for shoot-or-starve I would entirely agree with you. It's not suburban US they're recruiting from.

"Shoot-or-starve"? What? They're shooting at deer and missing?

You aren't that thick.

Maybe I am. Explain it to me. Iron Dome shots are $50,000 each; that's a lot of Happy Meals. The IDF can obviously easily penetrate Gaza. Each fighter can carry eight tons; that's a lot of Happy Meals.

Explain why the IDF doesn't just drop food to stop the attacks.

Explain how the attacks get food into Gaza.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.