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Subject: VERY unpopular rss

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Général Joab
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hey people

my senator is a great scum, and he is very unpopular.... more than -9 (because of epidemie... héhéhé)

but there is no token -10 or -11

what must i do ? if i am too unpopular, what do you do please ?

thx !
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Sheldon Morris
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I believe that popularity only ranges between 9 and -9, and so therefore you can't exceed those numbers. Not 100% sure though.
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upandawaygames.com
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Use a 1 and a 0 to make -10, a 1 and a 1 to make -11, etc.

Try to get him appointed Rome Consul; should be a fun speech.
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Sheldon Morris
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Just looked in the rule book (Living rules v1.04 of the Valley Games Edition), page 11:
Quote:
Popularity – his popularity with the people of Rome. If a senator’s popularity is negative, it is recorded with a black number marker. popularity may not go above 9 or below –9.


But you could exceed that if the group wished to play that way of course and use two tokens like with influence.
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Général Joab
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wouell thank you guys !

but how i do ? because if i can't be more than -9 can i still use my card who made me more unpopular but have more gold ?

thx
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Sheldon Morris
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Which card is that? I'm inclined to say that if you're at -9 and you get even more unpopular you stay at -9.

Think of it as being "infinitely unpopular" I guess.
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Général Joab
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ho, i don't remember the name of the card, but it's a concession when there is a starvation, if i want, i have gold, because i make the black market, but i am -1 unpopular

ok, so i can do this every time ? very good !

someone try this variant ?
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/16247490#16247490


it seems very greatfull
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Steve
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Grain concessions during a drought. Probably not the best idea. He will be the lead candidate for prosecution targets.
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Général Joab
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yes, that's it !!! me too, i like to live dangerously
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David Damerell
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slashing wrote:
Grain concessions during a drought. Probably not the best idea. He will be the lead candidate for prosecution targets.


You might persuade other people he's also really useful for batting Land Bills into touch.
 
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François Mahieu
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Popularity ranges from -9 to +9 (from the VG rulebook).
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Guillaume
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poifpoif wrote:
Popularity ranges from -9 to +9 (from the VG rulebook).


Yes, and because of that I ran into a bit of a problem the other day : for the "grains" concessions, while a drought is in play, it is possible to take extra income for a Popularity hit. I wonder if that should be allowed if the cost in popularity should push a Senator past the -9 mark.

Thoughts ?
 
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Alan Richbourg
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I'd say no.
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Sheldon Morris
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I'm going to go the other direction and say yes (but I'm not using any rules to back me up).
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poifpoif wrote:
Popularity ranges from -9 to +9 (from the VG rulebook).

But not in the original.
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Guillaume
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Ah right. So this is where it comes from : another oversight of a rule change between versions. Of course, since the question popped up as I was programming my app, I can always make this a variant, but the list will soon start to get ridiculously long.

My understanding of the change is that "-9" means "-9 or less", so I would be in favour of allowing it, but I can completely see the rationale behind not doing it as : "If you can't pay for it, you can't do it"

Thanks everyone.

heli wrote:
poifpoif wrote:
Popularity ranges from -9 to +9 (from the VG rulebook).

But not in the original.
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Steve Bachman
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LocoNeko wrote:
Ah right. So this is where it comes from : another oversight of a rule change between versions. Of course, since the question popped up as I was programming my app, I can always make this a variant, but the list will soon start to get ridiculously long.

My understanding of the change is that "-9" means "-9 or less", so I would be in favour of allowing it, but I can completely see the rationale behind not doing it as : "If you can't pay for it, you can't do it"

Thanks everyone.

heli wrote:
poifpoif wrote:
Popularity ranges from -9 to +9 (from the VG rulebook).

But not in the original.

If you don't allow taking advantage of droughts due to the popularity limit, then you can't allow sponsoring games if the Senator would go beyond the limit.

Neither restriction makes much sense in the context.
 
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Guillaume
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Ward wrote:
If you don't allow taking advantage of droughts due to the popularity limit, then you can't allow sponsoring games if the Senator would go beyond the limit.

Neither restriction makes much sense in the context.


Sponsoring games are not just about gaining Popularity, if it's capped you get the unrest effects. Benefiting from drought is first and foremost about the money, so there is not much sense in linking one to the other.

That being said, I'm not in favour of preventing drought gains for popularity reasons anyway.
 
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David Damerell
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heli wrote:
poifpoif wrote:
Popularity ranges from -9 to +9 (from the VG rulebook).

But not in the original.


The Living Rules also cap it at +9 to -9, which is a mix of the AH rules and AH's (rather erratic) answers to questions.

I would say, "yes"; otherwise one has to ask exactly what stops Senator Minus Nine from squeezing the poor for grain. He can't get any more unpopular because the mob all hate him already. If they get their hands on him they can't tear him limb from limb twice.
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Wasn't this whole -9..9 thing put in for not a very good reason, just because the graphic design only left room for one digit on the card? You don't have that restriction in a software implementation.
 
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Steve Bachman
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heli wrote:
Wasn't this whole -9..9 thing put in for not a very good reason, just because the graphic design only left room for one digit on the card? You don't have that restriction in a software implementation.

That's how I understand it as well. I'd guess that AH did not consider the other questions it would raise like this one.

LocoNeko wrote:
Ward wrote:
If you don't allow taking advantage of droughts due to the popularity limit, then you can't allow sponsoring games if the Senator would go beyond the limit.

Neither restriction makes much sense in the context.


Sponsoring games are not just about gaining Popularity, if it's capped you get the unrest effects. Benefiting from drought is first and foremost about the money, so there is not much sense in linking one to the other.

That being said, I'm not in favour of preventing drought gains for popularity reasons anyway.

That was my point though. Although I've seen it enough times where games are sponsored for popularity (Unrest was already at 0), the primary benefit is reducing unrest with a boon of popularity for the sponsor.

Similarly, as you stated, the primary if not sole purpose of benefiting from drought is for the money, with a popularity penalty for the concession holder.

In both cases, the popularity is a secondary effect and I don't believe a popularity cap should restrict the actions.

Thematically (and logically) speaking, does it make sense to tell a Senator he can't fleece the starving because he is already hated too much? Or that a Senator can't sponsor games because he is already too popular with the plebes? I think in both cases, the answer is no.

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David Damerell
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heli wrote:
Wasn't this whole -9..9 thing put in for not a very good reason, just because the graphic design only left room for one digit on the card? You don't have that restriction in a software implementation.


That may be putting the card before the horse - perhaps the game design was to stop you building up a huge reserve of Popularity, and the graphic design came second to match that.

Regardless, I don't have a thematic problem with the idea that there's a limit to how much the mob can love or hate you; I suspect there may be game mechanics issues if Popularity can become arbitarily large; I do have a thematic problem, as noted, with Senator Duncan-Smith not being able to crush the faces of the poor because they all hate him already; and I don't really see there's a game mechanical problem if he can.
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damerell wrote:
heli wrote:
Wasn't this whole -9..9 thing put in for not a very good reason, just because the graphic design only left room for one digit on the card? You don't have that restriction in a software implementation.


That may be putting the card before the horse - perhaps the game design was to stop you building up a huge reserve of Popularity, and the graphic design came second to match that.
Then wouldn't they have put it into the rules? No, it's much more likely that someone with a touch of OCD wrote into AH complaining that they couldn't fit a 10 into one box and what should they do and someone at AH who was probably not any of the designers didn't think about the consequences too much and figured this rule would be the easiest way to make them go away.
damerell wrote:

Regardless, I don't have a thematic problem with the idea that there's a limit to how much the mob can love or hate you; I suspect there may be game mechanics issues if Popularity can become arbitarily large;
Name one.

damerell wrote:
I do have a thematic problem, as noted, with Senator Duncan-Smith not being able to crush the faces of the poor because they all hate him already; and I don't really see there's a game mechanical problem if he can.
No idea what this is about, but seems off topic anyway.
 
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David Damerell
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heli wrote:
damerell wrote:
That may be putting the card before the horse - perhaps the game design was to stop you building up a huge reserve of Popularity, and the graphic design came second to match that.
Then wouldn't they have put it into the rules?


Definitely. Avalon Hill never ever forgot to put something in the rules.

Quote:
damerell wrote:
Regardless, I don't have a thematic problem with the idea that there's a limit to how much the mob can love or hate you; I suspect there may be game mechanics issues if Popularity can become arbitarily large;
Name one.


The word "suspect" is pertinent here.

Quote:
damerell wrote:
I do have a thematic problem, as noted, with Senator Duncan-Smith not being able to crush the faces of the poor because they all hate him already; and I don't really see there's a game mechanical problem if he can.
No idea what this is about, but seems off topic anyway.


Well, it's not; it's more or less the same thing other people are saying.
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Steve Bachman
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heli wrote:
damerell wrote:
heli wrote:
Wasn't this whole -9..9 thing put in for not a very good reason, just because the graphic design only left room for one digit on the card? You don't have that restriction in a software implementation.


That may be putting the card before the horse - perhaps the game design was to stop you building up a huge reserve of Popularity, and the graphic design came second to match that.
Then wouldn't they have put it into the rules? No, it's much more likely that someone with a touch of OCD wrote into AH complaining that they couldn't fit a 10 into one box and what should they do and someone at AH who was probably not any of the designers didn't think about the consequences too much and figured this rule would be the easiest way to make them go away.

Per the explanation for this specific change, AH issued errata for popularity that stated that there was no limit to popularity as well as the limits in place now. John Rodriguez choose the latter to stick with.
heli wrote:
damerell wrote:

Regardless, I don't have a thematic problem with the idea that there's a limit to how much the mob can love or hate you; I suspect there may be game mechanics issues if Popularity can become arbitarily large;
Name one.

Someone with a runaway positive popularity could prevent even the greatest unrest to never result in a loss to the mob. I can't conceive of a Roman that could have quelled such unrest without concern. Such a person would also never be concerned about a prosecution either, which also seems ahistorical.

heli wrote:
damerell wrote:
I do have a thematic problem, as noted, with Senator Duncan-Smith not being able to crush the faces of the poor because they all hate him already; and I don't really see there's a game mechanical problem if he can.
No idea what this is about, but seems off topic anyway.


I can see the merits of the limit as well as the merits of a lack of limits. I've only rarely seen someone hit the limit, but I've never played without the limits to see how it would affect the game either.

Either way, I don't feel the limit should restrict other actions.
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