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Subject: Hazard = Broken rss

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Dustin Crenshaw
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So I've played the game several times now. And I gotta say hazard is flat broken.

Before tonights game, we suspected last time it felt a little off when everyone switched to hazard and left everyone in the dust that didn't take it.

So on Monza tonight. 2 Players took and kept hazard. They left everyone in the dust. Every computer was lapped twice, except black that was lapped once, and the rest of the humans were lapped once.

It's way to easy to burst a ton of this, get a monza card and repeat. The penalty is just not a "hazard", way to easy. I know we will be changing it. Curious what others thought. We are thing just +1 if you play a check or take damage, and +1 movement in late breaks.
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René Christensen
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I also at first thought it was way too powerful.
You get extre spaces and Track cards for almost anything that you do!
But it does a lot of damages to your car and the guy who uses Hazard always needs an extra pitstop vs the rest of the players.
 
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Dustin Crenshaw
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Slotracer wrote:
I also at first thought it was way too powerful.
You get extre spaces and Track cards for almost anything that you do!
But it does a lot of damages to your car and the guy who uses Hazard always needs an extra pitstop vs the rest of the players.


20+ hours of gameplay, I think I'm past "at first". And I'm not alone, everyone I've played it with feels it's over powered, and I feel we proved it tonight.
 
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Jorge Blazquez Garcia
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I have to play more with Hazard, but first time I chose it, yes, I got a great advantage at first, but my car chart was full of damages very soon....I had to make one more pit stop than others....

Moreover, you have to move 6 sections in a Turn to get the track cards, that's not always easy, specially if you have cars in front of you
 
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René Christensen
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SeerMagic wrote:
Slotracer wrote:
I also at first thought it was way too powerful.
You get extre spaces and Track cards for almost anything that you do!
But it does a lot of damages to your car and the guy who uses Hazard always needs an extra pitstop vs the rest of the players.


20+ hours of gameplay, I think I'm past "at first". And I'm not alone, everyone I've played it with feels it's over powered, and I feel we proved it tonight.

We have done 9 test races, so we must be past 20+ too!
We will start a race serie or two (F1 and GT) in august!
 
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Doug Adams
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I tried it today and was doing very well with it against the robots. Given you get bonus movement and possible multiple track cards.... by the time I pitted, I had a massive hand of cards, and a 12 section lead. This was my hand by the time I pitted on turn 10. The bottom row are track cards...



... I did get off this strategy as the car was getting banged up.
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René Christensen
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I wonder what you ended up with after the pitstop!
 
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Doug Adams
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Slotracer wrote:
I wonder what you ended up with after the pitstop!


Six cards, of course. I did return all track cards, but assume you could keep them as long as you respect your hand size.

Forgot to draw the track card for hard tyres in the pits, though.
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René Christensen
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dougadamsau wrote:

Six cards, of course. I did return all track cards, but assume you could keep them as long as you respect your hand size.

Forgot to draw the track card for hard tyres in the pits, though.

I wonder if the two Track cards for Pitting skills count toward your hand?
 
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Al Johnson
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I have never played hazard myself but my son has. One thing I felt was difficult was moving 6 spaces. Remember, that IS a qualifier for getting a special (track card).

When we've played it just wasn't that easy to move 6 spaces.

We've always felt banging wheels was the strongest one ( but that's a discussion for another thread...)

(Edited a numerous times for typos and rules clarification).

 
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Stan Hilinski
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I've used Hazard a lot -- and with success -- especially with Reflexes skill (+20 on checks) and soft tires. What killed me was rain! Also, heavy traffic can bog you down, so you need to get past the clogs to make it work. I'm not convinced yet it's broken though.

Don't forget like I did that Hazard does not work with leader lapping checks and off-track checks.

There is one subtle, simple thing you could do to make it slightly harder. Change it so the hazard player gets +1 mp for checks only if he does a blind draw or plays a card from his hand. He can't use played cards. (This is the way leader lapping works already.) This way the extra movement will either eat away his hand or add damage.
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Dustin Crenshaw
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shilinski wrote:
I've used Hazard a lot -- and with success -- especially with Reflexes skill (+20 on checks) and soft tires. What killed me was rain! Also, heavy traffic can bog you down, so you need to get past the clogs to make it work. I'm not convinced yet it's broken though.

Don't forget like I did that Hazard does not work with leader lapping checks and off-track checks.

There is one subtle, simple thing you could do to make it slightly harder. Change it so the hazard player gets +1 mp for checks only if he does a blind draw or plays a card from his hand. He can't use played cards. (This is the way leader lapping works already.) This way the extra movement will either eat away his hand or add damage.


Leader checks are not blind for humans. And you don't have to worry about other cars when they are all double lapped.
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Stan Hilinski
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SeerMagic wrote:
shilinski wrote:
I've used Hazard a lot -- and with success -- especially with Reflexes skill (+20 on checks) and soft tires. What killed me was rain! Also, heavy traffic can bog you down, so you need to get past the clogs to make it work. I'm not convinced yet it's broken though.

Don't forget like I did that Hazard does not work with leader lapping checks and off-track checks.

There is one subtle, simple thing you could do to make it slightly harder. Change it so the hazard player gets +1 mp for checks only if he does a blind draw or plays a card from his hand. He can't use played cards. (This is the way leader lapping works already.) This way the extra movement will either eat away his hand or add damage.


Leader checks are not blind for humans. And you don't have to worry about other cars when they are all double lapped.


I thought I said that, though they can be blind if you want. The diff is you can't use your played cards for a leader check.
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Dustin Crenshaw
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shilinski wrote:
SeerMagic wrote:
shilinski wrote:
I've used Hazard a lot -- and with success -- especially with Reflexes skill (+20 on checks) and soft tires. What killed me was rain! Also, heavy traffic can bog you down, so you need to get past the clogs to make it work. I'm not convinced yet it's broken though.

Don't forget like I did that Hazard does not work with leader lapping checks and off-track checks.

There is one subtle, simple thing you could do to make it slightly harder. Change it so the hazard player gets +1 mp for checks only if he does a blind draw or plays a card from his hand. He can't use played cards. (This is the way leader lapping works already.) This way the extra movement will either eat away his hand or add damage.


Leader checks are not blind for humans. And you don't have to worry about other cars when they are all double lapped.


I thought I said that, though they can be blind if you want. The diff is you can't use your played cards for a leader check.


I can't read :)

Problem isn't so much the penalties as it's just how much movement is going on. Like corey said, he went around most of the track in 2 turns, that is ridiculous.
 
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When I was first learning F90, I used Hazard a lot. Since I have become a bit more experienced, Balance has become my go to strategy.

I have become addicted to the Pit skill, and 8 or 9 turns of fuel.

Love this game.
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Ismael Descolado
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Sorry my English.

Yes, I agree. HAZARD is OVERPOWERED in my opinion (my friends players agree) if you a race leader. Damages are a little price to pay (because you clean in pit stop and you control sucess in check tests). HAZARD + REFLEXES is very powerful: You can use a lot of green cards, you move a lot of spaces, you gain a lot of track cards.
If you choose HAZARD and start in first, second or third place (and set your pit to turn 8), man...

Me and my friends agree that HAZARD should not accumulate the damages and check tests to gain a Track Cards, only movements. We're thinking change this bonuses to only 1 track card.
 
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Dustin Crenshaw
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descolado1 wrote:
Sorry my English.

Yes, I agree. HAZARD is OVERPOWERED in my opinion (my friends players agree) if you a race leader. Damages are a little price to pay (because you clean in pit stop and you control sucess in check tests). HAZARD + REFLEXES is very powerful: You can use a lot of green cards, you move a lot of spaces, you gain a lot of track cards.
If you choose HAZARD and start in first, second or third place (and set your pit to turn 8), man...

Me and my friends agree that HAZARD should not accumulate the damages and check tests to gain a Track Cards, only movements. We're thinking change this bonuses to only 1 track card.


You can earn more than 1 card? Geez we were not even doing that. So OP, how did it skip play testing. We are changing it for sure

+1 movement if you do any checks or take any damage
+1 movement if you pass a late break
If you go 6 sections, you get a track card.
 
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Ismael Descolado
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Quote:
You can earn more than 1 card? Geez we were not even doing that. So OP, how did it skip play testing. We are changing it for sure

+1 movement if you do any checks or take any damage
+1 movement if you pass a late break
If you go 6 sections, you get a track card.


Hi Dustin

Third option: If you go 6 sections, you get a track card (ONLY ONE!) - we need test this modification.

The bonuses to move 6 or more sections is a big advantage to HAZARD, you don't need gain more that one track card.
 
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Stan Hilinski
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I spent some time racing over the last few days, and I especially tried to break the game using hazard. It just didn't happen for me. Sure, if a driver got ahead of the pack, he could break away, but something would always happen to thwart his progress. We certainly are doing something different. Maybe we are playing the rules differently, or maybe how we approach the game is different. Frankly, it would surprise me if the designer let something so obvious slide through.

I do think though that hazard could be more dangerous. I would expect to take more damage with this strategy. I think if I thought it needed fixing, I'd focus on the risk on the reward. I'd try adding -10 or -20 to all checks with hazard as the strategy so as to increase the chance of damage. Or as I wrote earlier, not allow hazard players to use played cards to resolve their checks.
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René Christensen
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One of my fellow gamers keeps choosing Hazard, first time he lead big time but had to pit four times, missed a LB and went out! Second time he couldn't get in the lead no matter how hard he tried and ended up fourth.
 
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Ismael Descolado
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Hazard is broken if you have much GREEN CARDs.

+1 green and +4 red = 6 movements (+1 track card);
+2 green and +2 green = 6 movements (+2 track cards);
+2 green and +2 any color + blue tyres = 6 movements (+1 track card);
+3 green +1 green = 6 movements (+2 track cards);
If you use blue tyres and have REFLEXES...

The chance of you suffering damage using green cards is low. And if you suffering, the damage are RED DAMAGE.
 
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The Friendly Meeple
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descolado1 wrote:

Hazard is broken if you have much GREEN CARDs.

+1 green and +4 red = 6 movements (+1 track card);
+2 green and +2 green = 6 movements (+2 track cards);
+2 green and +2 any color + blue tyres = 6 movements (+1 track card);
+3 green +1 green = 6 movements (+2 track cards);
If you use blue tyres and have REFLEXES...

The chance of you suffering damage using green cards is low. And if you suffering, the damage are RED DAMAGE.


You can get six movement but unless you have clear track in front of you those six movement might not be six track sections which is what you need to get the track card.

Also, if you suffer damage it is a blind draw from the damage tokens, you are not guaranteed to get red damage.
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Ismael Descolado
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Sorry my english, please.

Believe: Hazard is amazing if you're the leader! [rsrsrsr].

In my last play, a SAVE TYRES car WON two HAZARD cars in Monza track (amazing match!).

Reason:
1) Reduce the Hazard strategy power: Only +1 PM if played 2 green cards. Only +1 PM if played a card with 2 damages. Only +1 PM if success in LT. Only 1 Track Card per turn.

2) Save Tyres has made only one pit stop;

I think it was our first match 95% correct. These HAZARD modifications worked very well, like a lot and I think we'll keep them.

Foto finish:

Ferrari (Save Tyres) 1º;
Ferrari (Hazard) 2º;
Mclaren (Hazard) 3º;
Williams (Black Robot) 4º;
A Purple Robot lapped (3 laps!)

 
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René Christensen
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descolado1 wrote:

Hazard is broken if you have much GREEN CARDs.

+1 green and +4 red = 6 movements (+1 track card);
+2 green and +2 green = 6 movements (+2 track cards);
+2 green and +2 any color + blue tyres = 6 movements (+1 track card);
+3 green +1 green = 6 movements (+2 track cards);
If you use blue tyres and have REFLEXES...

The chance of you suffering damage using green cards is low. And if you suffering, the damage are RED DAMAGE.


1+4=6 ?
2+2=6 ?
2+2+1=6 ?
3+1=6 ?

Am I missing out on something here?
 
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Dustin Crenshaw
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I've played a few more games with my change, with new people. So without them knowing it had been changed, it still got picked several times. And I asked them what they thought of it and they said it's pretty strong.

so I'll be sticking to the change. Problem fixed in my book.
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