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Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: High Mage Quellen & Image Tokens rss

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Christopher Markham
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Okay, so this one may be a bit of a stretch, but I'd like to hear what everyone else thinks.

My question is essentially this: "Can High Mage Quellen's hero ability trigger and recover fatigue off of image tokens?".

Okay, before you scoff, let's recap what each card says:

High Mage Quellen: "At the start of your turn, you may choose another hero within 3 spaces of you. If the chosen hero has at least 1 fatigue token on his Hero sheet, you recover 1 Fatigue. If he has fatigue tokens equal to his Stamina, you recover 2 Fatigue".

and

Mirror Image: "Use this card during your turn and suffer Fatigue equal to the number of image tokens on the map. Then, place 1 image token in an empty space within 2 spaces of your figure.

An image token is treated as a hero figure with your attributes and a grey defense die. If an image token suffers Heart or Fatigue, it is discarded, and you suffer 1Heart and 1Fatigue."

Okay, so we know that High Mage Quellen's hero ability triggers off of other heroes within 3 spaces, and we know that image tokens are treated as hero figures. I think that means that this question passes the hero check.

The next requirement would be that the other hero, in this case the image token, would need to have 1 fatigue on his hero sheet. The question then becomes, do image tokens HAVE health or stamina? We know that if they suffer any health or fatigue damage, they die, but it's never expressly discussed whether or not they have any of those values at all. The only thing mentioned is that they have the same attributes as your hero, a grey defense die, and are treated like hero figures.

Okay, so if we determine that it has the same health and stamina as the conjurer, then I guess we could rule that if Quellen has 1 fatigue on his own character sheet, so then would the image token. This is a bit of a stretch, but I guess we could make the argument for it.

Okay, okay, I hear you over there. You're saying "Stop with the loose interpretations. OBVIOUSLY image tokens don't HAVE health or stamina!".

Okay, bu-ut...if we're going with that interpretation, then don't you think they qualify for "If the chosen hero has at least 1 fatigue token on his Hero sheet, you recover 1 Fatigue. If he has fatigue tokens equal to his Stamina, you recover 2 Fatigue"

I feel like having zero fatigue tokens would then be equal to the image's zero stamina. Technically, the image has fatigue tokens equal to his stamina, if we're treating them as having no stamina. In this instance, Quellen may treat them as heroes within 3 spaces and recover 2 fatigue, right?

What do you guys think? Again, I know it's a bit of a stretch, but I think that the wording of all the cards allows for the second interpretation and recovering 2 fatigue. Am I way off base?

Your input is appreciated.
 
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Bobb Beauchamp
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I think you are off track.

Quellen's ability targets Heroes, not Hero Figures. The Image is an image that is treated like a hero figure. It does not have a hero sheet, not even an imaginary one. The image doesn't pass the first part of the requirement to use Quellen's ability in that it is not a hero, and does not have a hero sheet.
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Donny Behne
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No, not at all. Way off base achieved.
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Stephen Williams
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Ludus Rex wrote:

I feel like having zero fatigue tokens would then be equal to the image's zero stamina. Technically, the image has fatigue tokens equal to his stamina, if we're treating them as having no stamina. In this instance, Quellen may treat them as heroes within 3 spaces and recover 2 fatigue, right?


There's a difference between zero and null. Images have no defined Stamina or Fatigue stats. It's not equal to zero or anything else, it's undefined.

kingbobb wrote:

Quellen's ability targets Heroes, not Hero Figures. The Image is an image that is treated like a hero figure. It does not have a hero sheet, not even an imaginary one. The image doesn't pass the first part of the requirement to use Quellen's ability in that it is not a hero, and does not have a hero sheet.


A "hero figure" is both a hero and a figure. In point of fact, all actual heroes are "hero figures." They are heroes by definition, and they are figures because they are represented by a plastic model in the game. That's what a figure is.

Any token that is "treated as a hero" (which mirror images are) count as being a hero for the purpose of hero abilities, monster attacks and OL cards. The image is also treated as a figure, but that's beside the point. Being a figure does not stop the image from being a hero.

That said, I do agree that the OP is off track, and that images don't have hero sheets. I'm just saying your assertion that an image doesn't count as a hero is incorrect. For the purpose of any hero ability (that is, any ability possessed by a hero, which includes hero sheet, skills and search cards), the image is considered "a hero."
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Christopher Markham
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Stephen, thanks for your input.

To me, none of this seems perfectly well defined, and I realized it was a fairly big stretch, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

I was surprised that there was any question to whether or not the images passed the "hero check", because to me, that one seemed obvious.

As to the stamina thing, I can see the merit in them "not having stamina" rather than "having zero stamina", which would make them invalid targets, since they can neither have some fatigue tokens, nor fatigue tokens equal to a stat they do not possess.

Thanks for the thought out response.

 
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Mr D S-N
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As "Stephen Williams (Stewi)" points out the Mirror Image is a Hero, and a Hero Figure.

The "Descent Second Edition Unofficial FAQ" covers Hero and Hero Figures in the first question:

"Frequently Asked Questions ยป General Rules

Q: Many quests have townsfolk or NPCs that are treated as a "hero figure." Others, such as in the Cardinal's Plight quest, have NPC's that are treated as a "hero." What is the difference?

A: There is no difference between the term "hero" and "hero figure" in the quest rules."


Descent Second Edition Unofficial FAQ: http://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Descent_Second_Edition_Un...

So the Mirror Images can be targeted by abilities, the trouble is they don't have any health or Stamina stats (nor movement stat!), nor a Hero Sheet they could put Stamina on.

I was halfway through my first game as a Conjurer before I realised the Images do not have the same Health as my Hero and will die as soon as they receive 1 health or stamina point (I was mistakenly thinking they'd have the same health as me and would make great "blockers" that would cost the Overlord a lot of damage to only put 1 HP and Stam on me blush)
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Donny Behne
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Ludus Rex wrote:
Stephen, thanks for your input.

To me, none of this seems perfectly well defined, and I realized it was a fairly big stretch, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

I was surprised that there was any question to whether or not the images passed the "hero check", because to me, that one seemed obvious.

As to the stamina thing, I can see the merit in them "not having stamina" rather than "having zero stamina", which would make them invalid targets, since they can neither have some fatigue tokens, nor fatigue tokens equal to a stat they do not possess.

Thanks for the thought out response.



It's clear because the card says that your images "have the same attributes as your hero and a gray defense die". Attributes are specifically defined as the four numbers in the bottom left of the hero card. Health, movement, stamina, and defense are characteristics. If they wanted images to have your move, health, and stamina, it would say they have the same characteristics. But the only characteristic it singles out is the gray defense die, and that is fixed for images regardless of your mage's defense die (which is different if you use the mage that comes in that expansion - her defense die is black).

They were very specific to say that images copy your attributes (strength, willpower, knowledge, awareness) and use one gray defense die. This means images have zero stamina and zero health, hence cannot acquire fatigue and therefore will not trigger Quellan's ability.
 
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Christopher Markham
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kelann08 wrote:

They were very specific to say that images copy your attributes (strength, willpower, knowledge, awareness) and use one gray defense die. This means images have zero stamina and zero health, hence cannot acquire fatigue and therefore will not trigger Quellan's ability.


Actually, having zero stamina WAS my argument in the original post. I proposed that if you have "zero stamina" then having "zero fatigue tokens" would technically mean you had fatigue equal to your stamina. Both values being zero.

Stephen proposed that images do not have "zero stamina" but instead "do not have stamina as a stat at all", which is what would make them the null target. This seems a more reasonable interpretation.
 
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Rafal Areinu
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Ludus Rex wrote:
kelann08 wrote:

They were very specific to say that images copy your attributes (strength, willpower, knowledge, awareness) and use one gray defense die. This means images have zero stamina and zero health, hence cannot acquire fatigue and therefore will not trigger Quellan's ability.


Actually, having zero stamina WAS my argument in the original post. I proposed that if you have "zero stamina" then having "zero fatigue tokens" would technically mean you had fatigue equal to your stamina. Both values being zero.

Stephen proposed that images do not have "zero stamina" but instead "do not have stamina as a stat at all", which is what would make them the null target. This seems a more reasonable interpretation.


And that proposal is pretty solid, since monsters also have null value as their stamina.
Rulebook wrote:
Since monsters do not have a Stamina value, if a monster suffers any
amount of fatigue, it suffers that amount of damage instead.

Donny you are right that none of the Characteristics, except for defense, gets defined for image tokens. But that just makes them undefined, not 0.
 
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