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Lost Legacy: The Starship» Forums » General

Subject: How to destroy a good game! rss

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julian k
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I can't believe the way age has been bringing over the kanai factory games. It really bothers me. The one draw version of lost legacy from japan contains both starship and garden decks that you mix and match and the art is absolutely perfect! Aeg is separating the two decks likely selling each one for more than what I bought mine for in japan. And putting more disgusting artwork on it like they did with love letter! You clearly have no idea who wants to play these games do you AEG. Shame on you! You have an opportunity to directly take something great and share it with everyone with little more than English printed on the cards. Why not bring us R so we don't have to play brave rats!? Why not master merchant? Oh you will probably paste that with thunder stone art! Seriously considering boycotting your stuff. I would rather go through the trouble of importing japanese games for outrageous prices and wrestle with translation than get ripped off and yanked around by your bad decisions.
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Rick Teverbaugh
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I think there's a small number who feel this way. I applaud AEG for bringing this game to the attention of U.S. gamers. I like the AEG Love Letter art better than the original but I am not a fan of Japanese art to begin with. I am looking forward to Lost Legacy at GenCon and hopefully more great small box games down the road.
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julian k
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How is it a small number!? Anyone who wanted these games from japan wanted them as they were. If you didn't know about them you likely wouldn't care. I am assuming you didn't know they existed until love letter was brought over.
 
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Brandon
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The art's fine. Will play. Will enjoy.
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Rick Teverbaugh
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vegantendo wrote:
How is it a small number!? Anyone who wanted these games from japan wanted them as they were. If you didn't know about them you likely wouldn't care. I am assuming you didn't know they existed until love letter was brought over.


I say it is a small number because of the number of Love Letter fans who have played the AEG version without any major aversion to the art even though the Japanese art was available for all to see. I didn't know about Love Letter until I saw the AEG version but then I investigated the original art and found I liked the AEG art better. I always am more interested in getting the game first and the art second.
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Emmanuel Mailloux
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rickert wrote:
I didn't know about Love Letter until I saw the AEG version but then I investigated the original art and found I liked the AEG art better. I always am more interested in getting the game first and the art second.


Totally true, i like the AEG art version over the Japanese one
And the art of lost legacy is nice. And Julian, if you already got your Lost Legacy from Japan, why do you care ? Play your version while we can enjoy the AEG one.
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Ian Murray
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I actually prefer the Love Letter AEG art to the original. I think it's great that they are bringing these games to the U.S regardless of what they do with the art.

Also, Braverats is from Blue Orange Games, not AEG.
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Christian K
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I love that they bring the game to us. Dont be a jerk just because you prefer the other art.
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Chris Copac
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Hyperbole much?

The game is far from destroyed, as you put it. Would you rather see more Kanai games, have them be enjoyed by a wider audience, and have them widely available here on this side of the pond or would you rather have the original art and purchase them from Japan directly every time you wanted one? News flash, these two aren't mutually exclusive.

I think you might need to walk away from the computer for a bit, and play some games.
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Jean-Philippe Thériault
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Those who wanted the (crappy, IMO) Japanese art already imported the damned game. Not exactly the target market for an AEG re-release. Not much point in courting the people who already bought a copy. Sorry. I love the new art. I would have preferred the two decks being sold together at 15$ rather than two separate boxes at 10$ each, but that's a minor quibble.
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Matt Pierce
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Normally I'd be in total agreement, but the art for The Starship is quite nice.

Flying Garden's art still looks like absolute crap though. It's bland to the point of hideousness. If they had just kept the starship artist for all the sets I'd be in love and would have probably forgiven AEG for everything.
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Christian K
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I prefer the japanese to them both (althougb i agree gardens is very boring) but i am free to get the japanese copy if that is what I want. I am happy though, that a company is offering the game here without japanese text. I cannot be mad at someone for offering something to me. Them I should also be mad at fantasy flight for not importing lost legacy and keeping the original art.
 
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Each set goes for $6.50 online. With tax, you're looking at $15 for both.

If you're crying about price, this is the wrong hobby for you.
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Erik R.
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ShotgunLove wrote:
If you're crying about price, this is the wrong hobby for you.


No need to be elitist about it.



Anyhow, I think AEG should have launched the game with the first two decks out at the same time. As someone who loves the Japanese sets, the biggest disappointment with the AEG version is not the art, but the way they are staggering the releases. It will unfortunately obscure one of the killer features of Lost Legacy, which is that it's Love Letter with a lot of emphasis on remixing and customizing the 16-card deck to your liking.

The artwork style is just going to be a matter of opinion, I suppose. But to speak a little more objectively, Lost Legacy's Japanese cards give more visual indications of what card does what, which I think makes it easier and more pleasing to play with. AEG's cards all look rather samey, so I wonder what it will be like to play with those.
 
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Vic DiGital
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If the art or aesthetics of either game had any bearing on the game itself, this might be an actual issue. But the most important thing that the Renaissance and space art (picked up the Starship edition today) does is blend into the background and get out of the way of the game. It may be bland, but it's unobtrusive, whereas the Japanese art (for everyone that's not a Japanophile) calls too much attention to itself and gets in the way of the game.

Love Letter and Lost Legacy with the Japanese art would just sit on the store shelves ignored, whereas the new art actually appeals to (or doesn't turn away) the audience for which it is intended, which is Westerners.

As noted, Love Letter is selling like gangbusters, so I have to declare AEG geniuses, or at least incredibly savvy about their market.
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Jean-Philippe Thériault
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karkador wrote:
It will unfortunately obscure one of the killer features of Lost Legacy, which is that it's Love Letter with a lot of emphasis on remixing and customizing the 16-card deck to your liking.


Gotta be honest, the cards in a given deck all seem so tied with each other (metagame and theme-wise) that I don't see why you would ever want to switch cards in or out. I personally will stick only to heavily community-tested and balanced variant decks, if I ever even stray from the official builds.
 
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Erik R.
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VicDigital wrote:
It may be bland, but it's unobtrusive, whereas the Japanese art (for everyone that's not a Japanophile) calls too much attention to itself and gets in the way of the game.


I'm trying to wrap my head around someone with a "Sentinels of the Multiverse fan" microbadge trying to call a game out for having art that gets in the way of the game.

XDarkAngelX wrote:
Gotta be honest, the cards in a given deck all seem so tied with each other (metagame and theme-wise) that I don't see why you would ever want to switch cards in or out. I personally will stick only to heavily community-tested and balanced variant decks, if I ever even stray from the official builds.


To that end, I would then have to ask, "why release multiple decks at all"?

Each set in the Japanese releases states you can mix both decks together to create a 6 player game. It also encourages you to try your own mix, and gives some recommendations. I also think the pairs of decks are created to complement each other in some way.

I mean, it's really fine if you aren't interested in that sort of thing, and the game is perfectly playable without that, but it seems like the intention was to make the game customizable - which is something a sizeable lot of Love Letter fans have been doing already (if the numerous rethemes and "inspired-bys" are any indication).

It will be interesting to see how this game sells compared to Love Letter.
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Jean-Philippe Thériault
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karkador wrote:


To that end, I would then have to ask, "why release multiple decks at all"?


For the same reason they released Lost Legacy : The Spaceship when we already had Love Letter. They're different games.
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Erik R.
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XDarkAngelX wrote:
karkador wrote:


To that end, I would then have to ask, "why release multiple decks at all"?


For the same reason they released Lost Legacy : The Spaceship when we already had Love Letter. They're different games.


Nah, the Lost Legacy sets all definitely feel like the same game.
 
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Vic DiGital
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karkador wrote:


I'm trying to wrap my head around someone with a "Sentinels of the Multiverse fan" microbadge trying to call a game out for having art that gets in the way of the game.


lol. Fair point. SotM art, while admittedly a bit too cartoony for my tastes, at least resembles the thing it is trying to represent. It's still superhero art and poses and colors and graphics like I would expect from a superhero game. It wasn't abstract or aesthetically from a different culture. I was able to accept the art for what it was and let it blend into the background.

A good example of my disconnect with the Japanese theme comes from watching a couple of reviews/previews of Machi Koro. The cards inside the box look fantastic. Fun, bright, graphically comfortable and familiar. But the box itself? Yikes! That box says "I'm Japanese, don't play me." Just from looking at the box, it feels like everything inside is going to be the same jumble of shapes and probably weird graphics and goofy Japanese characters (both textual and living characters). It's totally off-putting to a non-Japanophile. But the game itself looks wonderfully fun and accessible and non-Japanophile specific.

Huge disconnect between the box and the stuff inside. It would be just as much of a disconnect if it would have been a Renaissance architect on the front.

Maintaining a Japanese aesthetic is great if your goal is to promote Japanese culture or design, and firmly establish that this game originates from Japan. But if you're trying to SELL it to a Western/American market, I think sales will suffer if a game steadfastly holds to a less accessible cultural design aesthetic, especially when a simple retheme has no negative impact on gameplay.
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Erik R.
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VicDigital wrote:

A good example of my disconnect with the Japanese theme comes from watching a couple of reviews/previews of Machi Koro. The cards inside the box look fantastic. Fun, bright, graphically comfortable and familiar. But the box itself? Yikes! That box says "I'm Japanese, don't play me." Just from looking at the box, it feels like everything inside is going to be the same jumble of shapes and probably weird graphics and goofy Japanese characters (both textual and living characters).


I'm having trouble understanding exactly where things become "too Japanese" for you.

Yes, it's true that the art of the buildings on the cards for Machi Koro are rendered with more detail than they are on the box. It's not the same exact art asset. But it's the still the same colors and "goofy Japanese" aesthetic for both. I'm not sure how you arrive at thinking "it's Japanese, I wont play it" for one, but not the other. It's like thinking samurai dudes are cool, but the samurai swords are just way too Japanese.

Is there a certain color palette that only Japan uses? Is putting a mountain on the box too Japanese? Would only Japan think of making trees that look like triangles? To me, those are just fun and colorful things that could be from anywhere.

VicDigital wrote:
It's totally off-putting to a non-Japanophile. But the game itself looks wonderfully fun and accessible and non-Japanophile specific. Maintaining a Japanese aesthetic is great if your goal is to promote Japanese culture or design, and firmly establish that this game originates from Japan.


Honestly, I have to say that your use of the word "Japanophile" is coming off rather unfair. That term comes loaded with baggage. You don't have to be a Japanophile to like the type of aesthetic found in Lost Legacy or Machi Koro. They are not games about celebrating Japanese culture.


VicDigital wrote:
But if you're trying to SELL it to a Western/American market, I think sales will suffer if a game steadfastly holds to a less accessible cultural design aesthetic, especially when a simple retheme has no negative impact on gameplay.


I think sales will boom or bust for a variety of reasons, and it just seems narrow-minded to think that the board gaming audience (even just the Western/American market) is one mind and one sensibility.

I mean, let's look at Tanto Cuore. That game is definitely more along the lines of "unabashedly Japanese". The art and the theme puts me off, and I'd never buy it. But it seems to do well enough to have several expansions, including one for this year. The game is not for me, but it has an audience - good for them.

Then let's look at Shadow Hunters. This hidden role board game from Japan came out here in 2008, and it's still getting reprints and recommendations from people in 2014, despite the fact that they changed absolutely nothing about the art. Lots of people still enjoy the game even though it looks the way it does - good for them.

Then there's your favorite, Sentinels of the Multiverse. The game's art is bad. You could almost objectively say it's bad. It looks like teenagers drew it, except there are probably teenagers who can draw better. I'm not the only person who has noticed this, or felt put off by it. Despite this, the game is extremely popular and continues to sell. It's not for me, but the game found an audience - good for them.


Can we just agree that some games are going to sell, and some will not, for a variety of reasons? The effect the art has on a game's success is not as cut and dry as "it needs to be like this, or it will not sell". For what it's worth, I stopped thinking AEG's artwork for this game would hurt the game - there are other factors that could hurt the game, but the art is probably the least of its worries.
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Vic DiGital
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All the points you make are valid and "Japanophile" is probably the wrong word, but I don't know what the right word is. But you know what I mean.

Point is, we've had very strong Japanese-aesthetic design in the US for more than 20 years. It falls under the "you know it when you see it." Whether game, or anime, or manga, or TV show, I know at a glance what I'm in store for 99% of the time, and I'm sure it's the same way for a large swath of the public, both geeky, and non-geeky. Some of it is a lot more inaccessible than others.

But it's a very specific design aesthetic, and I'm not talking about generic Japanese overlays, but that stuff that's authentically Japanese. It's made for those people that really really really like that sort of aesthetic, and part of the appeal is the exclusionary nature of it. Regular old comic books and geeky culture used to dominate that exclusionary realm, but now, Rocket Raccoon and Game of Thrones and Walking Dead are household names, beloved by regular folks even more than by geeks.

While the undiluted Japanese aesthetic is growing at a slow but steady pace, it's still not mainstream enough to base a sales strategy on. Niche strategy, sure, but for something like Lost Legacy, that has a massive mainstream opportunity, the Japanese aesthetic is a detriment rather than a selling point.
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Erik R.
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VicDigital wrote:

Point is, we've had very strong Japanese-aesthetic design in the US for more than 20 years. It falls under the "you know it when you see it." Whether game, or anime, or manga, or TV show, I know at a glance what I'm in store for 99% of the time, and I'm sure it's the same way for a large swath of the public, both geeky, and non-geeky. Some of it is a lot more inaccessible than others.

But it's a very specific design aesthetic, and I'm not talking about generic Japanese overlays, but that stuff that's authentically Japanese. It's made for those people that really really really like that sort of aesthetic, and part of the appeal is the exclusionary nature of it.


This is true. It's easy to spot a lot of things that have come from Japan, whether it's anime, manga, videogame, etc. By saying "I know at a glance what I'm in store for 99%" of the time", I assume you mean that you're wary of - for lack of a better term- anime bullshit. Correct me if on wrong on that. (and just to be clear, I'm wary of that, too.)

So there are two things I'd like to say to that:

1) In my opinion, neither Lost Legacy nor Machi Koro exemplify the typical Japanese anime or manga experience. Playing these games really haven't given me the same feeling I'd get playing Tanto Cuore or looking at a anime or manga. I got way more anime/manga vibes playing Corto, and that's a thoroughly European-made game. Maybe you're way more sensitive to these things than I am, but I disagree that these games are designed specifically for the anime set, or evoke those kinds of things.

2) Although AEG may have changed the look of the game's art, the thematic core is still there. It seems most, if not all, of the card names have been kept intact, as well as the overall concept of the game's lore. If Japanese fantasy/sci-fi nonsense is what you're wary of, then I am afraid they didn't actually change any of that (and they probably should have), just the style of the artwork.


VicDigital wrote:

[While the undiluted Japanese aesthetic is growing at a slow but steady pace, it's still not mainstream enough to base a sales strategy on. Niche strategy, sure, but for something like Lost Legacy, that has a massive mainstream opportunity, the Japanese aesthetic is a detriment rather than a selling point.


That doesn't really answer how games with the Japanese aesthetic have had success. Shadow Hunters sells. Fairy Tale sells. Machi Koro is very likely to sell. Even games that have a Japanese aesthetic, but aren't from Japan, sell. Sushi Go! sells. Hanabi sells. Karesansui never stays in stock at CSI for long (it sells).

Japan's game output is still relatively small and young, so games that are likely to have a Japanese aesthetic aren't even common to begin with. There still really aren't that many games being made in Japan, or making it out of Japan. It's been picking up, but it still has a way to go. The big-name Japanese designers (like the designer of this game) is still rather small-time compared to the big names from Europe and America.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, maybe it just looks like games with the Japanese aesthetic don't sell, because the pool is so small that one or two duds makes the entire thing look a lot worse?
Any game from any region wont sell well if it's not a good game. There are plenty of games from Europe and America that don't sell, but I've never really seen such sweeping statements about the Eurogame Guy On a Box.

Give Japan's game designers some time to grow before deciding that any part of their aesthetic is simply unsellable. I think Machi Koro is a promising milestone in that regard.
 
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Vic DiGital
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karkador wrote:
VicDigital wrote:

Point is, we've had very strong Japanese-aesthetic design in the US for more than 20 years. It falls under the "you know it when you see it." Whether game, or anime, or manga, or TV show, I know at a glance what I'm in store for 99% of the time, and I'm sure it's the same way for a large swath of the public, both geeky, and non-geeky. Some of it is a lot more inaccessible than others.

But it's a very specific design aesthetic, and I'm not talking about generic Japanese overlays, but that stuff that's authentically Japanese. It's made for those people that really really really like that sort of aesthetic, and part of the appeal is the exclusionary nature of it.


This is true. It's easy to spot a lot of things that have come from Japan, whether it's anime, manga, videogame, etc. By saying "I know at a glance what I'm in store for 99%" of the time", I assume you mean that you're wary of - for lack of a better term- anime bullshit. Correct me if on wrong on that. (and just to be clear, I'm wary of that, too.)

So there are two things I'd like to say to that:

1) In my opinion, neither Lost Legacy nor Machi Koro exemplify the typical Japanese anime or manga experience. Playing these games really haven't given me the same feeling I'd get playing Tanto Cuore or looking at a anime or manga. I got way more anime/manga vibes playing Corto, and that's a thoroughly European-made game. Maybe you're way more sensitive to these things than I am, but I disagree that these games are designed specifically for the anime set, or evoke those kinds of things.

2) Although AEG may have changed the look of the game's art, the thematic core is still there. It seems most, if not all, of the card names have been kept intact, as well as the overall concept of the game's lore. If Japanese fantasy/sci-fi nonsense is what you're wary of, then I am afraid they didn't actually change any of that (and they probably should have), just the style of the artwork.


VicDigital wrote:

[While the undiluted Japanese aesthetic is growing at a slow but steady pace, it's still not mainstream enough to base a sales strategy on. Niche strategy, sure, but for something like Lost Legacy, that has a massive mainstream opportunity, the Japanese aesthetic is a detriment rather than a selling point.


That doesn't really answer how games with the Japanese aesthetic have had success. Shadow Hunters sells. Fairy Tale sells. Machi Koro is very likely to sell. Even games that have a Japanese aesthetic, but aren't from Japan, sell. Sushi Go! sells. Hanabi sells. Karesansui never stays in stock at CSI for long (it sells).

Japan's game output is still relatively small and young, so games that are likely to have a Japanese aesthetic aren't even common to begin with. There still really aren't that many games being made in Japan, or making it out of Japan. It's been picking up, but it still has a way to go. The big-name Japanese designers (like the designer of this game) is still rather small-time compared to the big names from Europe and America.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, maybe it just looks like games with the Japanese aesthetic don't sell, because the pool is so small that one or two duds makes the entire thing look a lot worse?
Any game from any region wont sell well if it's not a good game. There are plenty of games from Europe and America that don't sell, but I've never really seen such sweeping statements about the Eurogame Guy On a Box.

Give Japan's game designers some time to grow before deciding that any part of their aesthetic is simply unsellable. I think Machi Koro is a promising milestone in that regard.



My actual point is not that the GAME is too Japanese, but that the design aesthetic (for original recipe Lost Legacy/Love Letter/Tonto Quorum) is too specifically tailored to people who are either from Japan, or are all-in on any form or media that comes from there. We all know these people. They walk among us.

But Lost Legacy and Machi Koro are VERY accessible games and do not at all feel like I'm being forced to play some sort of bizarre Japanese import. Once a more accessible theming and/or art was placed on them, it allowed that game to shine through. As long as it has/had pure Japanese design aesthetics on the box (as in the case with Machi Koro) or through and through (original LL and LL), it will be a barrier to a lot of people. The retheming proves this. If you don't tell anyone that either game is originally a Japanese game, you'd never ever know, and it would never ever matter. The theming or art has no bearing.

Looking at the front of the box of Machi Koro, I'd never have even bothered to look at the back. The name of the game, combined with the art on the box gives off the same vibe as all the anime stuff that I find inaccessible. I don't care how great someone tells me "Samurai Champloo" is, or swears that the basic story is right up my alley, the non-sensical name and seemingly haphazard style of the show will forever prevent me from considering it as anything other than yet another bizarre Japanese import that I need to avoid at all costs.


For some things, the IP is going to override any retheming. For most of the IP's, you're trying to connect with a really really young demographic and grow with them. Those things have a chance at huge mainstream success, such as Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh. But if you start out with just pure Japanese aesthetic, and are marketing towards adults, you're aiming really really narrowly and are going to reach a niche market at best.


The original point of the OP was that the retheming ruined the game. As shown by most of the people in this thread, the retheming was what allowed them to finally give the game a chance, and as such, it's reaching a much much wider audience than it ever would have before. The game is still fully the same game. The art and design are just chrome.



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GrillMurray wrote:
They'll see the velvet bag, they'll pick it up in the store because it's clearly a game cut from the same cloth.


< facepalm / >
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