Alex Fiedler
Australia
Colebee
NSW
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Firstly, we really enjoyed the game but found a few areas that hurt the game, especially for a game that took 3+ hours.
So here are our changes that we believe will speed up the game, focus more on the exciting aspects (looting, questing, exploring) and tweak a few rules for balancing.

0. Setup
Each player draws 4 action cards and discards down to 3 cards which becomes their starting hand.
Each player draws 4 basic quest cards and discards down to 3 active quests.

1. Hand-size Limit
Players have a Max-Hand-Size of only 5 cards. This prevents AP, and the cards you do have are more valuable. Remove any quests that relate to having more than 5 cards in your hand.

2. Bag-size Limit
Players can only store up to 10 item/loot cards in their bag. Equipped items do not count towards this limit.

3. 3 Active Quests
Players can now have 3 active quests. Any loot card than grants a 3rd quest actually becomes a 4th active quest.

4. No Movement Die
Do not use the movement die at all. Leave it in the box (or throw it away!)
Players have 4 "ENERGY" points to spend on their turn, which can be used for movement and/or mana, giving you total control each turn.
Spend energy as movement points. Any energy remaining are your mana points for action cards.

5. Move Through Any Color
On your turn, players may move through any color level. ie: You do not have to be at red level to move onto or through red spaces. You still draw an encounter card based on the color of the space you end your movement on.

6. Cities Allow 2 Actions
When in any of the 3 cities, you may activate any 2 of the actions available, but not the same action twice.

7. New City Action
Cities now also have the "Place Discovery Token" action available.

8. City Quest Action
When taking the City Quest action, discard 1 of your active quests and then draw 2 new quest cards, choose 1 to keep and discard the other.

9. City Trade Action
When trading items in the city, discard 1 loot card from your bag to draw 2 loot cards of the same level as the loot you are discarding.
You may instead discard 2 loot cards from your bag of the same level to draw 2 loot cards of the next level up as long as you are also at that higher level.
Choose 1 of those 2 new loot cards to keep, and discard the other.

10. No New Stationary Encounters
If you did not move this turn, do not draw a new encounter card.
You must still face any encounter tokens on that space if there are any undefeated encounters there.

11. Defeating Encounters for Extra Loot
When you defeat an encounter card, flip the card as normal as loot, and then draw 1 loot card from one level lower or the grey deck.
(eg, defeating a yellow creature flips to a yellow loot, and then draw a random green loot card. defeating a grey creature flips to a grey loot and draw an additional grey loot card)
If your 2nd loot card is an Event card, activate the Event and draw one more loot card of that level. If that is also an Event, discard it and do not drawn any additional cards.

12. Player Deaths
When a player dies:
- If killed by another player, the attacker may steal 1 loot card from the defenders bag, and also takes 1 player token from the defender as a trophy which is worth 1 VP. The attacker then moves the defender to ANY city of their choice.
- If killed by any other means, that player must discard 1 random loot card from their bag, and the player to their left moves their figure to ANY city.
Finally, the killed player moves any equiped item cards back into their bag, and discards any attached ability/enchantment cards.

13. Defeating Bosses
You may only defeat each boss once.

14. Game Length
Short game = 8VP, Medium Game = 9VP, Long Game = 10VP, Epic Game = 12VP

3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex Fiedler
Australia
Colebee
NSW
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Our World of Warcraft 2.0 Variant
After our games, and much discussion, we believe this enhances the game in several ways.

Getting rid of the movement die means players have more control over their fate, and should definintely speed up gameplay, and allow some forward planning. You can even plan your next turn now while other players take their turns (something you couldnt do with dice movement)

Extra loot cards speeds up the game, allowing players to level up faster and discard unwanted loot for either better loot or for one-off movement/mana boosts. With more loot, things get done faster.
And let's face it, more loot = more fun!

Extra actions in the cities make them a viable location to visit, and allowing to place discovery tokens from there is also more interesting and gives another option for those in cities. Plus, placing discovery tokens is fun!

The penalties for death were minor to none. So this "trophy" concept means killing another player gives you more than a single loot card. You could actually win by killing other players!

In the end, the total effect of these changes means the game should be much faster, and more exciting and focus on the most interesting aspects; loot, quests and interaction.

Let me know what you think!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Brown
United States
Carmel
IN
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ReqMan wrote:


Let me know what you think!


I have not played this game for a long time. You definitely have me wanting to get it back to the table with this variant. Thanks!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sebastian Zarzycki
Poland
Poznań
Wielkopolskie
flag msg tools
spiral out
badge
keep going
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Basically, it's turning the game into pure euro. It may work but it's no longer the same game. You want to introduce more predictability, control and "stuff". IMHO this game doesn't need it.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul DeStefano
United States
Long Island
New York
flag msg tools
designer
badge
It's a Zendrum. www.zendrum.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
rattkin wrote:
IMHO this game doesn't need it.


And indeed, would suffer from it.

The introduction of the new PvP elements really change the game into something radically different and it become cat and mouse instead of adventure.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex Fiedler
Australia
Colebee
NSW
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
A euro? You can't be serious. This could never be a euro, not even close. Saying this variant makes this game a euro is just plain ridiculous.

All we have done is remove the rubbish random movement, increase loot, and give players more control over their turns, as well as shorten game length. In terms of PvP, it is a mere 1 VP for killing someone, which is hardly going to reduce the game into cat & mouse games.
In fact, much of this variant is based on well established variants by other people and for good reason.

I'm sure there are purists that are happy to spend 3-4hrs playing this as originally intended. That is fine, and this thread is not for those.
This variant is for those who realise how excesively long and random this game is, and want MORE adventuring and MORE decisions to make that actually have meaning but with a much shorter play time.


Also, keep in mind that if the pvp change is too much for you then you can always ignore that one. We just felt there was no reason to attack other players without it.

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sebastian Zarzycki
Poland
Poznań
Wielkopolskie
flag msg tools
spiral out
badge
keep going
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ReqMan wrote:
A euro? You can't be serious. This could never be a euro, not even close. Saying this variant makes this game a euro is just plain ridiculous.


It is not. You might not see it this way, but the shift generated from your proposed mechanics is strictly a shift towards euro mechanisms. You might not agree (or even care, it's your rules after all), but that's how I see it. I would never play it with your rules, because it would kill what generates fun for me in this game. The "no movement die, spent 4 action points" is a particularly euro rule, forced onto a game that was already designed to mitigate movement and mana problems (potions, abilities), you clam to be rubbish. You don't want randomness in it, you just want to calculate precisely your best move, having full control over numbers. If that's not euro style, then what is?

Quote:
increase loot


This game is not about gathering loot and being more and more powerful. I've seen this misconception before. It's a game of racing to 8 points. Loot might be a factor, but shouldn't be that important. In a way it already is a hybrid game, because point races are euro thing. But you optimize, not "build and only then execute".

Quote:
In terms of PvP, it is a mere 1 VP for killing someone, which is hardly going to reduce the game into cat & mouse games.


My testing says otherwise. Once you sit on 6 points and trying to close the game, but you might not be able to because of the difficulty of quests, killing someone for these last 1-2 VP creates a very specific effect on the board, where everyone rush for the weakest player. And, even worse, if you won't kill someone but wound them, the next player will have a significant advantage. If anything, the variant with unlocking quest points for wounding other players makes more sense mechanically, even though it's hard to defend theme-wise. Additionally, attacker moving defender to any city of his choice is pretty much a broken game right there. You slow him down already and you want him to spend another turn to use flight path to the city of his choice. How is this even remotely fun for such player?

Quote:

I'm sure there are purists that are happy to spend 3-4hrs playing this as originally intended. That is fine, and this thread is not for those.
This variant is for those who realise how excesively long and random this game is, and want MORE adventuring and MORE decisions to make that actually have meaning but with a much shorter play time.


Fair enough, I'm not going to argue with this. You wanted to know what we think, though. So: maybe it would be easier for them to just play a different game? Such a heavy tweak of a game brings dangers of its own.

On a side note, why do you think the game is "excessively long" (while proposing score variants for long and epic game)? And "random"? What's the point of moving onto higher levels, if you cannot do anything meaningful there besides being turned into a pulp?
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex Fiedler
Australia
Colebee
NSW
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Sorry Sebastian, but I disagree with you on almost every point.

Whether I move my character via dice or set movement points (ala Descent, and many other non-euro games) does NOT make this game any more euro, or any semblance or euro at all. This is just a nonsense arguement.
Nothing in this variant makes this game anything like a euro. This is ameritrash at its heart and these mods only emphasise that, but also give a bit of control back to the players.

This game IS about gathering loot. It is a fundamental part of the game.
As is defeating encounters, and completing quests.
The victory condition is to gather VP, making this a race of sorts, but the mechanisms to get there are clear: defeat encounters, collect loot to become more powerful so that you can level up, defeat better encounters and be able to complete quests the fastest.

We have attempted to condense the best and most fundamental parts of this game so that each turn more of the important stuff happens, giving players more control each turn, and shorten game time.

Yes, I included longer options as well. As I said, this variant is intended to shorten gametime. However, players such as yourself may prefer longer 3-4hr games, which is why I also made allowances for that.

Yes, moving into higher levels before you are ready can be deadly. But that gives players the option to do so, just like any good RPG. It also means if you're buffed up with good equipment (now possible faster due to this variant) you might want to push your luck and try a higher level encounter. That's your choice. Intersting choices is what games are all about.

The attacker moving a player to any city is hardly game-breaking.
Infact, the current system is broken.
Moving to the nearest city can actually HELP a player if their next destination is closer to that direction or they need to fly somewhere next turn.
Our last game, dying for me did nothing but heal me. The city I was sent to was the same distance from my next destination as my original location. So effictively, nothing happened. Meanwhile, the other player spent time, movement, mana and ability cards to defeat me. For what purpose? It did nothing to me, but wasted his turn. That is a broken game right there. I should be punished for dying. Not neutral or maybe even get a benefit. Surely you can see this.

And yes I do value valid opinions. That's what I was looking for.
However, as soon as you called this variant a "euro", you lost all credibility in my eyes.

If anyone else has any thoughts, please let us know.
We will try to get this to table soon to report back on how it plays out and how much time we cut down.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sebastian Zarzycki
Poland
Poznań
Wielkopolskie
flag msg tools
spiral out
badge
keep going
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ReqMan wrote:
Sorry Sebastian, but I disagree with you on almost every point.


You have every right to do so. I won't intervene further, nor will I discuss over semantics of what constitutes an euro mechanic, as this is going nowhere. We're not really discussing the "euro" part, forget about it, it was just a random remark. We're discussing the variant.

So about that. This one important thing: try your rules first. Play several games with them and then come back. For now, you're just presenting a theory without a proper playtest. I've already tried before some of these solutions you're proposing here - and *I know* they're not working. Or at least they didn't work for me and my group.

ReqMan wrote:

Yes, moving into higher levels before you are ready can be deadly. But that gives players the option to do so, just like any good RPG. It also means if you're buffed up with good equipment (now possible faster due to this variant) you might want to push your luck and try a higher level encounter.


The level system wasn't introduced to annoy players. It's a clever design that sets up certain mechanics in place and introduces limitations so that people won't win the game all of sudden by accident. Same goes for actual online game - you HAVE TO be a certain level to enter instances, even if you theoretically have a shot at completing them.

Besides, you're still operating under the assumption that the game is about loot and encounters. It really isn't, cross my heart. It's about completing quests. There's absolutely no point in entering a random red space to start an encounter, unless you're already prepared for it, which means that you could as well level up to red by that time. There are no quests saying "you have to kill a red-level monster" - there's no incentive to do so. The level system, at best, is to prepare you for epic encounters giving VP - and you need proper preparation for them anyway. If you allow for "pushing luck" too early, there will be a temptation of raiding straight for south red encounters and ending the game with 2*4VP in 30 mins, because of some lucky dice roll combined with that one ability. Do you want to play such a game?

ReqMan wrote:

The attacker moving a player to any city is hardly game-breaking.
Infact, the current system is broken.


Imagine player that has quests in south. You kill him and move him to Undercity. Now he has to spend whole turn using flightpath to get to Stormwind. He is already slowed down. Why do you want to slow him down more?

ReqMan wrote:

Moving to the nearest city can actually HELP a player if their next destination is closer to that direction or they need to fly somewhere next turn.


That is rarely an optimal move. If the city is closest, then chances are, he is already close, either to a city or to a FP. Player cannot kill himself on purpose - most mobs still give only 1 or 2 damage. Yes, you can exploit the system this way, there will be certain (but not many) situations in which this is beneficial. This, however, is far smaller problem than other player moving you where he pleases.

ReqMan wrote:

Our last game, dying for me did nothing but heal me. The city I was sent to was the same distance from my next destination as my original location. So effictively, nothing happened. Meanwhile, the other player spent time, movement, mana and ability cards to defeat me. For what purpose? It did nothing to me, but wasted his turn. That is a broken game right there.


Quests are open information. If your opponent knew all that, then why the heck did he attack you? It doesn't make any sense. Again, the game is about quests, remember?

ReqMan wrote:

I should be punished for dying. Not neutral or maybe even get a benefit. Surely you can see this.


You ARE punished for dying. Losing attached buffs and moving back to a city is enough punishment, really. It can effectively slow you down for couple of turns, and losing a tempo is crucial in this game (which is about doing quests). Defeating other characters, just because you can, isn't pushing you further towards your win. Strategically placed attack is almost always a deciding turn, getting soon-to-be victory away from hands of one player and delaying it. Game design 101 is that you don't want to discourage one player from playing the game, just because he is temporarily in worse position. He still needs a fighting chance to win. If you punish him to much, you will remove that chance from a game.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul DeStefano
United States
Long Island
New York
flag msg tools
designer
badge
It's a Zendrum. www.zendrum.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm with Sebastian.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul DeStefano
United States
Long Island
New York
flag msg tools
designer
badge
It's a Zendrum. www.zendrum.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ReqMan wrote:
Whether I move my character via dice or set movement points (ala Descent, and many other non-euro games) does NOT make this game any more euro, or any semblance or euro at all.


Yes, it does. Removal of dice definitely, 100% moves something more towards Euro. By the very definition. Once you can preceisely calculate where you can be standing 2 moves out - you're Euroed.

ReqMan wrote:
This game IS about gathering loot.

Nope. That's a side part of questing.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex Fiedler
Australia
Colebee
NSW
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Geosphere wrote:

Yes, it does. Removal of dice definitely, 100% moves something more towards Euro. By the very definition. Once you can preceisely calculate where you can be standing 2 moves out - you're Euroed.


That is not the definition of Euro at all. Is Descent a Euro? Super Dungeon Explore? Gears of War? D&D Wrath of Ashardalon, etc? Almost EVERY other "ameritrash" rpg or dungeon crawl game?
They all have fixed movement values.
This random movement is not the norm for these kinds of games (and for good reason) and DO NOT make fixed movement Euro games. That is total nonsense.

If you guys want to redefine Euro & Ameritrash as "Roll and Move = Ameritrash" and "Fixed Movement = Euro", then go ahead. Start a new website/forum, but that definition is not accurate here on BGG.

Geosphere wrote:

ReqMan wrote:
This game IS about gathering loot.

Nope. That's a side part of questing.


No, loot is a fundamental part of this game.
You cannot win or even play this game without gathering loot.
Quests are the objective, encounters and loot are the means in which you reach those objectives. This is fact.
Encounters, and specifically the loot gained from encounters, are also one of the highlights and "fun" factors of the game. What loot did you gain, can you use it, and the excitement of turning over the now defeated encounter to see what you got. That's core to the enjoyment of this game.


Anyway, I'm tired of arguing.
I'm only interested in sensible feeback and ideas, and/or constructive criticism.

Sebestian, you are correct in that this is only a proposed set of rules changes. As soon we get a chance to do some playtesting, I will report back with our results and let people know which rules worked and which, if any, did not.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul DeStefano
United States
Long Island
New York
flag msg tools
designer
badge
It's a Zendrum. www.zendrum.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
All the games you mention with movement points are tactical. WOW is strategic. Tactical games are mp based because they would not work otherwise. Realm movement like WOW or Talisman needs to be random to prevent situational minmaxing.

In other words, taking the random out of movement takes the surprise out of adventure.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul DeStefano
United States
Long Island
New York
flag msg tools
designer
badge
It's a Zendrum. www.zendrum.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ReqMan wrote:

I'm only interested in sensible feeback and ideas,


Which you have received from multiple sources, each supporting their claims.

You're only interested in agreement. You've gotten a lot of sensible feedback. You just don't agree with it.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Troels Rohde Hansen
Denmark
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
We already play with the Draw 4, keep 2

That really improves the game, because it is a race game, and having to start with getting new quests instead of completing them sets you behind from the start, and that card draw can determine your game. Then you might as well play war.

I have been looking at the movement/energy point variant some time, but found I was not sure how to sell it, but I know now that I will get tokens, like you did. That is brilliant. I do see the point, that it is realm movement, and not tactical - it does ruins the fun to roll 1 three turns in a row. Even though it might be a staple in the genre it does not become a euro game to change it.

I might try rules:

0, 1, 2, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 12

I do think, that it would make the game a little better.

Most importantly, this is really a light game. I can sometimes get my friends to play this, but spending so much time on it, as the 3-4 hours it sometimes take, cannot be justified. I like fun little game, but if I want to play it, I need to find a way to reduce time.

As you can see, I skipped the more loot from encounters and moving through higher zones. The extra loot options will just make players AP more, which is already one of the biggest time takers. Higher zones is such an integral part of the Race Game play, that i think it will make it less WoW:TAG.

I might revoke the 1 VP for a kill, if it devolves to a PvP fest, but most players of the game ask for a little more REASON for interaction.

one more rule... I will post it seperatly...


...Troels
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris J Davis
United Kingdom
London
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Overtext pending moderation...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Geosphere wrote:
All the games you mention with movement points are tactical. WOW is strategic. Tactical games are mp based because they would not work otherwise. Realm movement like WOW or Talisman needs to be random to prevent situational minmaxing.

In other words, taking the random out of movement takes the surprise out of adventure.


What utter fucking nonsense. This game's big brother - World of Warcraft: The Boardgame - is a strategic game that uses point-based movement, and tons of other strategic adventure games do too (Merchants & Marauders, Star Trek: Fleet Captains, Legends of Andor, etc, etc).

I think the OP's idea is a good one, and saying that removing a die in favour of using a point-based system makes it a Euro is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard on here. I guess the Strategy cards in TI3 make that game a Euro as well because they're the same as the Role cards from Puerto Rico? FFS. This is just variant-bashing for the sake of variant-bashing.

There's also a difference between not being open to constructive criticism, and not being open to absurdities like saying that removing a die turns an AT game into a Euro.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
flag msg tools
"Where are you from?" "Long story. The Pacific Ocean, I guess."
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
bleached_lizard wrote:
Geosphere wrote:
All the games you mention with movement points are tactical. WOW is strategic. Tactical games are mp based because they would not work otherwise. Realm movement like WOW or Talisman needs to be random to prevent situational minmaxing.

In other words, taking the random out of movement takes the surprise out of adventure.


What utter fucking nonsense. This game's big brother - World of Warcraft: The Boardgame - is a strategic game that uses point-based movement, and tons of other strategic adventure games do too (Merchants & Marauders, Star Trek: Fleet Captains, Legends of Andor, etc, etc).

I think the OP's idea is a good one, and saying that removing a die in favour of using a point-based system makes it a Euro is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard on here. I guess the Strategy cards in TI3 make that game a Euro as well because they're the same as the Role cards from Puerto Rico? FFS. This is just variant-bashing for the sake of variant-bashing.

There's also a difference between not being open to constructive criticism, and not being open to absurdities like saying that removing a die turns an AT game into a Euro.


Agreed. Loving the die's randomness for the sake of the randomness is not exactly rational, in my opinion. Another variant posted on the forums mentioned giving players cards with energy and movement on them (for each of the die's faces). Each turn, a player would be required to expend one card before moving and such. I like that variant quite a bit too--it means you have more control and less defeat.

I especially like the idea of allowing the city to have discovery tokens, 2 actions, and a more useful auction house. 5 cards as a hand limit would work too, I think--though I would argue in favor of a 5, 6, 8, 10 system where you can hold more cards in hand after levelling up (with green level allowing you 6 max cards, for example).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris J Davis
United Kingdom
London
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Overtext pending moderation...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I've been thinking about this myself a lot now and here is my idea - thoughts appreciated:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1299616/another-idea-replac...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
flag msg tools
"Where are you from?" "Long story. The Pacific Ocean, I guess."
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Cool! Thoughts on that posted in the thread.

So far I've been allowing people to reroll their movement die after an initial move, for the cost of 3 energy (and the energy on the new die is ignored). There's some element of risk if you do that since you end up with no energy to use in the battle that turn after you've moved again. Unless you move into a city again.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.