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Subject: Will this be full co-op? rss

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Arturo Cavari
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The title says it all.
 
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Thorsten Schröder
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IIRC its going to have a one against the rest mechanic.
But I think I read somewhere, that there may be a full coop mode. Perhaps as a strech goal.
 
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N S.
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Yes. There will be 1 vs many, semi coop, and full coop modes.
 
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Major Havok
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I thought I read that full co-op would only be available as a stretch goal?
 
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Matt Price
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The designer has said there will be rules for Vs., semi-coop (the players each have a hidden secret agenda, so while they are all working together everyone has incentive to try to "win")
 
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N S.
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He has indicated there will be full coop as well, despite the fact that he doesn't personally like playing full coop games.
 
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Major Havok
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I play Descent 2nd edition regularly in two different groups. For these 2 groups it's safe to say we play Descent _despite_ the fact it's one vs. many. We have no one that desires the Overlord role. And this isn't because of some perceived bias for/against overlord players - both groups find things pretty well balanced. We have no one who wants to stand alone and play by themselves on basically their own team.

We've picked up the coop materials for Descent and I'm afraid today both groups will not be looking back and won't be playing with an Overlord, even if that means no campaign.

The designer of any game is free of course to make the game they want. My groups however seem likely to pass on any other one vs. many games that come out going forward - no thanks.

I can understand that someone would dislike coop games as we all have our own tastes. But for someone to propose that somehow coop games inherently don't work seems very uninformed. There are already plenty of coop games out, some of which are successful, and with fans who enjoy them. I just recall from some forum on this game where perhaps the designer was opposed to the idea of coop games in general? Or maybe I'm misremembering things?
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N S.
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Jake Thornton's opinion of coop games is here http://quirkworthy.com/2014/06/06/why-co-op-and-i-dont-get-o...

In the same post he confirms that the game will have a pure coop mode, since he knows there is demand for it. It just isn't his cup of tea.
 
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Kamu
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Jake Thornton's definition of co-op is so weird that even when he says the game is "full co-op", he's still talking about 1 vs many (or "semi co-op" or overlord vs heroes, whatever you wanna call it). Otherwise, his reasoning goes, it wouldn't be a game at all ("semi co-op", within his framework, means something like overlord vs heroes with a traitor or even some sort of pvp). What's impotant for this discussion is that he's pretty much confirmed (in his blog, but can't find the exact post) that he'll work on some AI system, precisely because there's a lot of pressure to have a dungeonmasterless experience. So, yes, there's a high chance that a stretch goal will give us full co-op (besides "full co-op", semi co-op and not co-op at all).
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Thorsten Schröder
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In Descent we are in our 2nd Campaigne and so far the overlord is getting crushed again. I think the problem is that such a game has to be designed for at least 2 kinds of player groups:
1) players who discuss every move and are aware of all options of the other players
2) players who do what they think is best when their turn comes and don't discuss their move with their co-players a lot

Both kinds of playing are ok and can e a lot of fun.

When a game is balanced for the 2nd kind of players the overlord won't stand a chance against the first kind of players. If its designed for the 1st kind of players the 2nd players are gonna be crushed by the overlord.

But I guess this problem will be the same with the AI.
 
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Arturo Cavari
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I disagree with the entire article. Saying that co-op games aren't games is absurd: it's as if he was arguing that Left 4 Dead and Borderlands aren't games!

It's just a different kind of game: you aren't competing against other players but against the game. Whether the game is congrolled by as program or by a deck of cards is irrelevant.
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Major Havok
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My two groups find Descent balanced, but I will readily admit that is with some luck and plenty of circumstance. If your Overlord is well-versed in Descent and "good" with tactical games and the players "aren't", what chance does a game designer have for the outcomes of his game to be "balanced".

My take on gaming and pure coop games in particular are the polar opposite of this designer. I disagree with his definition of games, competition, etc. It does boggle my mind a bit that our experiences can be soooo different.

His release of DH4 one vs many will only provide balanced play if his assumptions about the players will be true. Perhaps that they all come to the game with the same level of skill and understanding? But these assumptions will rarely be true and the plays of his game in one vs many will rarely have balanced outcomes. Balanced competitive play will also require balanced players and you never get that except in small tight groups that gets lots of plays in and where the players really have the same proficiencies. But again, these sorts of circumstances I think are unlikely.

We play most games, but we love coop games.
 
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Mike Miller

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No mention of full co-op at this point.
 
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Arthur chang
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wickedwretch wrote:
... What's impotant for this discussion is that he's pretty much confirmed (in his blog, but can't find the exact post) that he'll work on some AI system, precisely because there's a lot of pressure to have a dungeonmasterless experience. So, yes, there's a high chance that a stretch goal will give us full co-op (besides "full co-op", semi co-op and not co-op at all).


If he was able to do it for Deadzone, a more freeform miniatures game, I can't imagine he'll have much trouble for a more boardgame like system.
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Kamu
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grimbergen wrote:
wickedwretch wrote:
... What's impotant for this discussion is that he's pretty much confirmed (in his blog, but can't find the exact post) that he'll work on some AI system, precisely because there's a lot of pressure to have a dungeonmasterless experience. So, yes, there's a high chance that a stretch goal will give us full co-op (besides "full co-op", semi co-op and not co-op at all).


If he was able to do it for Deadzone, a more freeform miniatures game, I can't imagine he'll have much trouble for a more boardgame like system.


Again on his blog, he's touched the AI issue again:

http://quirkworthy.com/2014/08/05/getting-along-famously/

As you say, there's good chance he'll do it correctly and I certainly believe he'll try to put both AIs to fight to test them. The possibility of leaving the heroes to the AI so you can play as the bad guy could make this a very exciting product for solo gamers.
 
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Tristan Brunet
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Reading this, it seems to me the most interesting option would be playing full coop against an AI necromancer, with secret missions for the players to add a bit of competitive tension. This way, you get the best of both world : tension between players, either cooperating of fulfilling their own agenda, and the satisfaction of not being force to play as the necromancer (though that could be fun as a one-time experience).
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