Recommend
4 
 Thumb up
 Hide
25 Posts

Lords of Waterdeep: Scoundrels of Skullport» Forums » Strategy

Subject: The 40 point trap? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Bryan K
United States
Canton
Michigan
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Seems like a 40 point quest is not the way to go. Completing four 10 point quests could give you an additional 16 points considering they match your Lord card.
The only advantage seems to be the appearance that you are in last place while you work on this large quest. People may avoid putting a mandatory quest or attack card on you.

Am I missing any advantage of these large quests?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ron
Austria
Vienna
flag msg tools
“It's all in the mind.” ― George Harrison
badge
Devoted Follower of the Most Holy Church of the Evil Bob. Possessed and down the road to become chaotic, evil & naughty. All hail the Evil Bob and his Stargate.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
No, I guess you nailed it. Being behind on points and working on a 40 points quest in the endgame might keep you out of the target area for Mandatory Quests. But do a 40 point Quest in the beginning and the other players will start to see you through cross hairs meeple
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex Drazen
United States
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Depending on the buildings, a 40 point quest can eventually take the same or fewer placements as four 10's. This is more likely in the expansion because so many more things can erect buildings (quest rewards and intrigue cards). One person I play with guns for only high value quests because of this.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul DeStefano
United States
Long Island
New York
flag msg tools
designer
badge
It's a Zendrum. www.zendrum.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This is incredibly situational. It depends on the opponent's, if you know their lords, your lord, the buildings out there.

Some of the 40s are extraordinarily easy if you have completed some of the quests with game powers, like get a guy X every time you earn a guy Y.

4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J. Alex Kevern
United States
Mahopac
New York
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ZombieDad2 wrote:
Seems like a 40 point quest is not the way to go. Completing four 10 point quests could give you an additional 16 points considering they match your Lord card.
The only advantage seems to be the appearance that you are in last place while you work on this large quest. People may avoid putting a mandatory quest or attack card on you.

Am I missing any advantage of these large quests?


One thing to consider is that for a 40VP quest, you only need one 'quest' action. For 4, 10VP quests, you need to spend 4 turns taking quests, so that's three turns you're not taking more advantageous actions.

Assuming all quests involved match your lord and roughly 4VP per action (discussed in other forum posts):


40VP quests = 40VP + 4 Lord VP - 4 Action VP = 40VP
4 10VP quests = 40VP + 16 Lord VP - 16 Action VP = 40VP


So, I would say they're roughly equivalent. 40VP quests are certainly more risky, as you can score either 0 or 40VP, whereas the the alternate case you can score 0, 10, 20, 30, or 40VP. But certainly not something I would shy away from altogether.
13 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Mason
United States
Indianapolis
Indiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mister gnome's point touches on this, but: specifically consider the few Lord cards that don't get bonus VP's for quests - the 40VP quest becomes a greater value than the smaller VP quests in those equations (36 vs 24).
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Combs
United States
Annapolis
Maryland
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The other issue to consider are the resources needed to complete a quest. Most 40 point quests require 10 to 12 blocks (doing this from memory - I don't have the game in front of me) plus gold ranging from zero to 10 gold. In general, 10 point quests average around four to five block plus potential gold. If four 10 point quests cost 20 blocks (four times five blocks), then the 40 point quest is a better bargain. The key point as discussed is timing on completing such quests. Too early and people will gun for you. Of course as all quests are open, people tend to survey the battle field regularly to see who is working on what, thus trying to eliminate the last round push for victory.

Kevin
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joel Schuster
Germany
Bretten
Baden-Württemberg
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
According to my experience, 40VP quests are game winners. So they are highly contested in my group. Players go as far as picking away 40VP quest just so noone else gets them. We are aware that completing alot of minor quests provides alot of lord points too, but the thing is you need more actions and also luck on quest draws.

Ideally, we do some big quests, especially in mid game when you got some engines running and buildings are out. Very early and very late you'll rather finish small quests. So I think the best strategy is doing both - at their own time and according to the board/quest situation.


I logged two 3p games where I completed two 40VP quests each, winning both with 201 and 216 points total.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
brian
United States
Cedar Lake
Indiana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mb
mistergnome wrote:
One thing to consider is that for a 40VP quest, you only need one 'quest' action. For 4, 10VP quests, you need to spend 4 turns taking quests, so that's three turns you're not taking more advantageous actions.

Don't mean to be pedantic but the way you have this worded could be confusing.

There is no such thing as a "quest action." You take an action then you may complete a quest. To say that taking quests denies actions is misleading and simply not true.

By taking four turns to complete 4 quests, all you are doing is preventing yourself from doing four other quests.

I am also not following the math you are using to "subtract" points just to equalize them. Where are these "penalties" coming from? I also think the logic is flawed. Most people aren't completing quests in the meantime while they are working on a 40-point quest because they need all the adventurers they can get. Sure, there might be some minor ones with adventurers they don't need but that isn't going to be every impulse.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Holt
England
Rayleigh
Essex
flag msg tools
This is not the cat you're looking for - some other cat maybe?
badge
tout passe, tout lasse, tout casse
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It doesn't take a turn to complete a quest; but it often does to pick up the Quest card.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J. Alex Kevern
United States
Mahopac
New York
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ColtsFan76 wrote:
mistergnome wrote:
One thing to consider is that for a 40VP quest, you only need one 'quest' action. For 4, 10VP quests, you need to spend 4 turns taking quests, so that's three turns you're not taking more advantageous actions.

Don't mean to be pedantic but the way you have this worded could be confusing.

There is no such thing as a "quest action." You take an action then you may complete a quest. To say that taking quests denies actions is misleading and simply not true.

By taking four turns to complete 4 quests, all you are doing is preventing yourself from doing four other quests.

I am also not following the math you are using to "subtract" points just to equalize them. Where are these "penalties" coming from? I also think the logic is flawed. Most people aren't completing quests in the meantime while they are working on a 40-point quest because they need all the adventurers they can get. Sure, there might be some minor ones with adventurers they don't need but that isn't going to be every impulse.


My apologies for the confusion. A quest action is the action you take to pick up the quest. To get 4 10VP quests, that takes four actions to pick them all up, whereas 1 40VP quest only requires one action to pick up. Thus, the three additional actions can be used to something more profitable (like, acquire resources to complete the quest).
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
brian
United States
Cedar Lake
Indiana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mb
mistergnome wrote:
My apologies for the confusion. A quest action is the action you take to pick up the quest. To get 4 10VP quests, that takes four actions to pick them all up, whereas 1 40VP quest only requires one action to pick up. Thus, the three additional actions can be used to something more profitable (like, acquire resources to complete the quest).

Ah, got it. So you were saying you spend an extra 3 actions at Cliffwatch Inn.

But this assumes that you don't already have the cards as part of your initial hand, as a consequence of getting them elsewhere (reward, Intrigue, or other action space), or that your primary concern is wanting getting cash, an Intrigue card or just clearing the Quest spaces to prevent someone else from grabbing something they want. Nor does it take into account just going there because all other spaces are taken, especially after reassigning from Waterdeep Harbor.

So while I now see what you meant more clearly, I think it is still a bit too ideal of a situation to compare apples to apples.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ron H
United States
Washington
Missouri
flag msg tools
I play Memor 44,Tide of Iron, and Axis and Allies:1942!
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The last time I played this expansion, my friend completed three 40 point Quest cards to win. I was completely blown away, as I could only get 15 point Quest cards at most. I don't like them, they are too easy for the amount of points you get, and if you get lucky and get more than one, you can dominate the game.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Keith Hamilton
United States
Oregon
flag msg tools
It really depends on a lot of factors. How many players in the game? Is the Skullport expansion in the game session? How many buildings are being played? And course who is your lord? How many people are interfering with each other? Also maybe the most important, what round are you picking up the 40 point quest?

2-3 player games tend to favor VP efficient quests, so I don't mind the 40s there.

Skullport amps up the accessibility of resources dramatically in my opinion. It's easy enough to take corruption to complete a 40 quickly, then search for a quest/building/intrigue card later to remove your corruption.

Some lords favor the 40 point quests more than others. Trorbriand to some extent, Xanathar, maybe Irusyl in a game where other people are taking your quests.

More buildings generally means better access to resources, so in that case I'd play more 40s.

Finally, I don't like to worry about completing 40 VP quests in the first couple rounds or the last couple rounds. In the first couple rounds, I want to complete the best plot quests I can find. In the final round, it's too easy for people to interfere with your attempt at finishing the 40, unless you are very close anyways.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Barry Figgins
United States
Woodland
California
flag msg tools
badge
http://lyrislaser.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
rongammer wrote:
The last time I played this expansion, my friend completed three 40 point Quest cards to win. I was completely blown away, as I could only get 15 point Quest cards at most. I don't like them, they are too easy for the amount of points you get, and if you get lucky and get more than one, you can dominate the game.


This is always a sign of good balance for me: a few players saying that the 40-point quests are overpowered, and a few saying they're underpowered. This doesn't mean they're perfect, but it does suggest that the designers weren't totally off-target!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryan K
United States
Canton
Michigan
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I have since changed my strategy and I try to pick these up whenever I can!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J Arthurs
United States
Simpsonville
Kentucky
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
40 point quests are swooped up in my gaming group as soon as they hit the table, regardless of who your lord may be. The ratio of return on "points spent" (cubes and money) to "points received" is incredible. Before Undermountain, a good return on a quest was two points received for one point spent, but the 40 point quests return 3:1 or even greater.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J. Alex Kevern
United States
Mahopac
New York
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MaderaGamer wrote:
40 point quests are swooped up in my gaming group as soon as they hit the table, regardless of who your lord may be. The ratio of return on "points spent" (cubes and money) to "points received" is incredible. Before Undermountain, a good return on a quest was two points received for one point spent, but the 40 point quests return 3:1 or even greater.


As established above, the 40 point quests give a higher return per cube, but the smaller 10 point quests can potentially give you more lord points despite being a worse return per cube. They are also lower risk, in that you could complete the 40 points in parts (10 points at a time), whereas in the 40 point case you are forced to complete it all at once. This means a higher likelihood of incompletion by game's end.

So, yes, the 40 point quests are situationally very good. But they're also balanced.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex Drazen
United States
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
In my experience, 25 and 40 point quests are magnets for mandatory quests, as long as people evaluate you based on potential score rather than current visible score. Especially if someone has two 25+ quests.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Choi
msg tools
The flexibility and lowered risk is a big point.

When you factor in the possibility of eventually getting plot quests that give you bonuses after completing quests, e.g. Quell Mercenary Uprising (Whenever you complete a Warfare Quest, you score 2 points), and Seize Citadel of the Bloody Hand (Whenever you complete a Quest, you may return an adventurer used to complete that Quest to your Tavern), I strongly favor the lower point quests that are easier to complete.

But I'll still grab the 40s if the buildings in play make it really easy to complete.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick
United States
Ocean
New Jersey
flag msg tools
How are about making the 40 point quests optional. Make a small facedown stack with all the 40 point quest at the side of the board. Then during the game a player has a chance to buy those from the inn. Each player is only allowed to buy one of the 40 point quest during the game. I believe there's only five such cards, however I would never play with more than five people anyway so that would not be a problem.

Or another variant could be that let's say at the beginning of the third, fourth or fifth round each player will receive one of the 40 point quest cards randomly.

Or another variant could be that each player would receive one random 40 point cart at the beginning of the game. They could choose then to either try to fulfill the requirements during the game or to pass.

Any thoughts?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ian T
msg tools
That's way too complicated, but kinda works.

Me and friend had discussed this multiple time and definitely found the 40point card is way OP. I usually try to get 2 40 point card and complete 1 in 7th and the other at 2nd half of the last round ... at that point it's game winner by a margin.

Looking at the resources it takes, it's probably should be a 31-33 point card.

Knowing that by the end of most games, the skull tracker is at 6-8.
I am considering just adding a skull sticker on each 40-point cards, it might balance it out.

BTW: I will just take the 40-point out when playing under-mountain only
-----
Will a skull balance out the 40-point card? or that's not enough?

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Colin M
United Kingdom
Warrington
Cheshire
flag msg tools
mbmb
I played a 5 player game last night and completed two 40 pointers. I won... by a single point! Seems pretty balanced to me.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve O'Grady
United States
Jacksonville
Alabama
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Adding to that, I played once trying to complete the 40 pt quest, and the game ended 1 turn before I could finish it. It would have given me the game win...if only I could have gotten that last cube one turn earlier. Definitely a push your luck element in trying to complete one.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clayton Weaver

Jefferson City
Missouri
msg tools
endless_x wrote:

Me and friend had discussed this multiple time and definitely found the 40point card is way OP.
Absolutely. The only thing keeping them in check is that the rest of the players will likely be targeting you with mandatory quests and attack cards.

The notion that they are underpowered is based on some sort of situational scenario where you get a whole bunch of Quests that match your lord bonus to fall into your lap.

The fact that you have to take actions is get these Quests is massive. The fact that other players can take your Quests breaking up your chain or the fact that the Quests you are looking for might never show up is big, too. The fact that some Quest rewards will give you bonuses that don't directly help you chain together these Quests might also come into play.

The only risk is getting caught with one that you can't complete. Hardly a trap. Still, against most groups its a risk because it will make you a target.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.