George Curtiss
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Dothan
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A friendly disagreement came up during an Epic Clusium scenario. A unit was ordered with Retire and Reform, but it had two woods hexes immediately to its rear. Some of us said that the unit was not eligible, since it had to stop in the woods and so could not move two hexes. The others said this is a retreat or evade type move, so the woods could be passed through and the unit reinforced.

The heart of the issue is whether the unit is moving or retreating/evading.

What do you think? Any official rulings out there?

Thanks,

George
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Alexandros Boucharelis
Greece
Drama
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interesting question, i would have played it as the card states "...if a unit retire cannot move 2 hexes it may not be ordered..." so its clear to me that its not an evade/retreat move but a regular one. Even if the unit is green and its blocked by other units then again it cannot ordered, so its the same situation, no order no loss block gained.
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George Curtiss
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I agree with you that since this is a MOVE and not forced on a unit by an enemy close combat that it should NOT be allowed, but since there was a disagreement, we just agreed to allow it, ask later on BGG, and play on.

The ones who wanted it to be allowed pointed to the move being "2 hexes to the rear" and said it was more of an evade than a move. They also looked at the title of the card - REtire and REform and said it was a REtreat, so terrain restrictions should apply only as they would in a retreating or evading situation.

I suppose all of us were just interpreting what we thought Richard Borg was intending, and he has surprised us before ("Short Supply" teleporting a unit behind impassable terrain in CC: Napoleonics) but again, I agree with how you would play it. Thanks for seeing it my way!!

Anyone out there disagree with us? If so, why?
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Read the rulebook, plan for all contingencies, and…read the rulebook again.
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I would agree that the movement executed from the play Retire and Reform is normal movement for three reasons:

1. Retire and Reform requires the play of the card and that the moving units be ordered.

2. Other cards that grant ordered units the possibility of extra, prescribed, or exceptional movement (Elephants via Mounted Charge; Warriors via Double Time; Light units via Move-Fire-Move and Order Lights, for example) still abide by normal movement rules otherwise.

3. Retreats, Evades, and Escape are (also) special, conditional moves that do not require orders nor the play of a card. They are precipitated through an opponent's play.

I don't think they're conclusive proof for how the card should be played. But I think they're reasonable guidelines that draw on how other cards and special moves are played. It does seem to be the sort of question would benefit from an official ruling by the designer.

Also, while the title of cards in the game are not sure guides to their interpretation, it would seem to me that the words Retire and Reform suggest an orderly, limited withdrawal and reconstitution of units and not the flight to immediate safety that the words Retreat, Escape, and Evade conjure.
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George Curtiss
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BradyLS, if you had been at our game yesterday, I think you'd have convinced them! My arguments....but way better stated.

Still love to hear from Mr. Borg....

I did check ccancients FAQ just to see if this had been asked, but it seems we are the first.
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brian
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Card titles are mostly just for flavor and should not be used for interpreting the function of the card itself.

I agree with the rest that say the units must move the 2 spaces. I don't think there is an FAQ on this because I would argue the card is crystal clear: it says "must move" and if it can't, "may not be ordered." There really isn't any room for interpretation in that.

The only murkiness is they use the term "retire move" which isn't defined, but GMT has done this before to "clarify" what is going on. I just see it as overriding the unit's normal movement. But again, the text of the card says all that can be said.
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George Curtiss
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Richard Borg just responded on consimworld's C&C: Ancients folder to my reposting of this question.

Forests, rivers, units, impassable terrain, and the board edge, will all prevent a unit from being ordered with "Retire and Reform" in Epic Ancients. A legal two hex move to the unit's baseline must be available to the unit for it to be ordered with this card.

You guys were right (and I was, too). Now back to my buds to rub it in.
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Guillaume Gleize
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WOW ... TY for the question! I was actually playing the RR moves like retreats so free from slowing down terrains (unless impassables)!

Let's change that! And replay all that LOL!

surprise

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