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Subject: Non-Kickstarter section? rss

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Kirk K

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As someone who a) is never going to contribute to a Kickstarter project under any circumstances and b) has gone from visit BGG two to three times a day to visiting once a month, simply because there's too much KS stuff to sort through, I would love see the site separate pending KS projects from "real games" that are in production. I realize that we're well past that point, so I'd at least like to see some kind of Kickstarter filter.
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Certainly game images and reviews on the front page are filling up with adverts for potential unreleased products.
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Derry Salewski
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If you want a website where people are only allowed to discuss games that are already out . . . go make one?

It probably won't be that popular. But you never know.

I have no desire to go to Essen but you don't see me starting threads whining about that all over everything for a month every year.
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Chris SC

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I'm in the same boat about not using kickstarter (generally), but I don't see how it is that problematic. What specifically bothers you?

I use the forums mostly and haven't had any real issues in general/recommendations/hot deals and the like.
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If you visit "BBG" only once a month, this can't be that important now, can it?
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Well, one of the issues is that kickstarter promoters post their prototype images to the Game gallery (when prototypes are clearly supposed to go to Creative gallery, as per BGG policy), and then all the users who kickstarted the game come here and thumbs up the image, putting it on the frontpage.

I like to look at pictures of games that actually exist, especially if they are taken with skill and an eye towards aesthetics. Not games that may one day exist if the promoter can raise enough money. I mean, these aren't even pictures of the games themselves. They are pictures of what the game may look like if it ever gets printed.
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Kirk K

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scifiantihero wrote:
If you want a website where people are only allowed to discuss games that are already out . . . go make one?

It probably won't be that popular. But you never know.

I have no desire to go to Essen but you don't see me starting threads whining about that all over everything for a month every year.


Um, this is a suggestion forum. I'm making a suggestion. If you think BBG spends too much time on Essen coverage that doesn't enhance your enjoyment of the website, then feel free to come here and "suggest" they do otherwise. I promise that anyone who understands the definition of the word suggestion won't accuse you of whining.
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Kirk K

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kreikkaturkulainen wrote:
If you visit "BBG" only once a month, this can't be that important now, can it?



Re-read my original post. I used to come here several times a day, but I stopped because I got board trying to weed out all the KS stuff. If I wasn't for that, I'd still be here every day.
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Derry Salewski
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Dice is Right wrote:
scifiantihero wrote:
If you want a website where people are only allowed to discuss games that are already out . . . go make one?

It probably won't be that popular. But you never know.

I have no desire to go to Essen but you don't see me starting threads whining about that all over everything for a month every year.


Um, this is a suggestion forum. I'm making a suggestion. If you think BBG spends too much time on Essen coverage that doesn't enhance your enjoyment of the website, then feel free to come here and "suggest" they do otherwise. I promise that anyone who understands the definition of the word suggestion won't accuse you of whining.


I promise anyone who knows how to read would think it
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Kirk K

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scifiantihero wrote:
Dice is Right wrote:
scifiantihero wrote:
If you want a website where people are only allowed to discuss games that are already out . . . go make one?

It probably won't be that popular. But you never know.

I have no desire to go to Essen but you don't see me starting threads whining about that all over everything for a month every year.


Um, this is a suggestion forum. I'm making a suggestion. If you think BBG spends too much time on Essen coverage that doesn't enhance your enjoyment of the website, then feel free to come here and "suggest" they do otherwise. I promise that anyone who understands the definition of the word suggestion won't accuse you of whining.


I promise anyone who knows how to read would think it


No, probably just people who don't know how to handle someone having a different opinion.
 
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Todd Pytel
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At the time I'm posting, none of the 1st page of game forum listings are KS games and neither are any of the reviews. Some of the images are, but images have always come and gone in waves, frequently showcasing components for not-yet-released games. I generally don't expect anything more than publicity shots in the front page images.

So I fail to see that there's a significant problem here. And I'm not a KS enthusiast either (I've backed only two games since KS began).
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Kirk K

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I do most of my exploring in the hotness and video sections, which is where I get lost in all the KS stuff.
 
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scott Murray
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so what happens if you someday buy a production copy of a KS game?
Many games (and good ones too) are now on shelves.

If you use your idea, you have suddenly locked yourself out of all those forums, simply because you didn't realise it was a kickstarter game.
 
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scifiantihero wrote:
I have no desire to go to Essen but you don't see me starting threads whining about that all over everything for a month every year.


Not quite the same thing. Essen posts tend to be about games that are actually released or being published, whereas many of these Kickstarter projects never make it off the ground.

I agree with the OP. I'm beyond tired of Kickstarter. Besides my distaste for the business model, I like the idea of gatekeepers. Sure, I might not like every FFG or DoW release, but I know that there was a decision made by the publisher to risk money with a game, so they must have seen some potential in it. Any jackass with an idea, a camera, and some friends can put together a slick looking KS project for a poorly tested game that will utterly suck.
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Dice is Right wrote:
kreikkaturkulainen wrote:
If you visit "BBG" only once a month, this can't be that important now, can it?



Re-read my original post. I used to come here several times a day, but I stopped because I got board trying to weed out all the KS stuff. If I wasn't for that, I'd still be here every day.


Can't re-read the original post, since you edited it, and so the original post does not exist any more.

You did not indicate that getting "board" trying to weed out all the KS stuff was the reason you do not visit so much any more.

While we all weep for the loss of your custom to this website, with all the flaws that it has, the hobby is changing, and the board game geeks that hang out here are the people who are most likely to discuss and post content about KS games.

So, basically you will just either try to change the bahaviour of several thousands of users, or start another website. Or, visit once a month.
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Kārlis Jēriņš
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Dice is Right wrote:
I would love see the site separate pending KS projects from "real games" that are in production.


Kickstarter games aren't real games how, exactly?
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James Ludlow
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TheNameWasTaken wrote:
Dice is Right wrote:
I would love see the site separate pending KS projects from "real games" that are in production.


Kickstarter games aren't real games how, exactly?


The core issue seems to be vaporware games hyped by hopeful backers clogging up front page modules, like the hot images. It's a backlash to the marketing tactics, not really to KS itself.
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Simon Lundström
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TheNameWasTaken wrote:
Dice is Right wrote:
I would love see the site separate pending KS projects from "real games" that are in production.


Kickstarter games aren't real games how, exactly?


They don't exist yet.

Now, that's not a big thing, because they mostly WILL exist in the future.

But there's a difference between game that already are, and games that are around the corner. There's a big fat "grass is greener on the other side" effect around Kickstarter. It's designed to wipe up a buzz, because it invites people to invest, not just mentally, but financially, in something that doesn't exist yet.

This is nothing new, of course. People have always yearned for the next nice thing, and have invested mentally in upcoming games. But Kickstarter accelerates this to a degree that obviously the OP finds disturbs the general discussion. I agree that when the most of the discussion is about games that have yet to arrive, we're in dangerous waters.
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Kārlis Jēriņš
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Zimeon wrote:
TheNameWasTaken wrote:
Dice is Right wrote:
I would love see the site separate pending KS projects from "real games" that are in production.


Kickstarter games aren't real games how, exactly?


They don't exist yet.


Define "exist" in a way thay excludes Kickstarter games but doesn't exclude upcoming games by non-Kickstarter publishers.

Hard mode: do so without including the words "kickstarter" or "crowdfunding" (and words derived of these) in your definition.
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Martijn Althuizen
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In a nutshell: If there were to be a Kickstarter filter of sorts, you'd have to be able to filter between:

- projects still in funding stage
- projects that reached their funding goal
- projects that didn't reach their funding goal

Now there's something that *would* be useful. But who's gonna keep track of all this metadata..?


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Simon Lundström
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TheNameWasTaken wrote:
Zimeon wrote:
TheNameWasTaken wrote:
Dice is Right wrote:
I would love see the site separate pending KS projects from "real games" that are in production.


Kickstarter games aren't real games how, exactly?


They don't exist yet.


Define "exist" in a way thay excludes Kickstarter games but doesn't exclude upcoming games by non-Kickstarter publishers.


Why should I do that? Do it yourself if you like defining strange concepts. As far as I'm concerned, no upcoming games exist yet, whether they're crowdfunded projects or company-funded projects.

I suppose you read the rest of my post, on why Kickstarter accelerates the behaviour of hyping yet-to-be-released games.
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Kārlis Jēriņš
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Zimeon wrote:
TheNameWasTaken wrote:
Zimeon wrote:
TheNameWasTaken wrote:
Dice is Right wrote:
I would love see the site separate pending KS projects from "real games" that are in production.


Kickstarter games aren't real games how, exactly?


They don't exist yet.


Define "exist" in a way thay excludes Kickstarter games but doesn't exclude upcoming games by non-Kickstarter publishers.


Why should I do that? Do it yourself if you like defining strange concepts. As far as I'm concerned, no upcoming games exist yet, whether they're crowdfunded projects or company-funded projects.


Okay, so it's not just upcoming Kickstarter games that you have a problem with, it's upcoming games in general. I'd thought to show you how there's no difference between crowdfunded games and company-funded games, but obviously that won't be enough. So, let's try something different. What is necessary for you to say that a game exists?

Zimeon wrote:
I suppose you read the rest of my post, on why Kickstarter accelerates the behaviour of hyping yet-to-be-released games.


I did, but I don't find it relevant enough to discuss.
 
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TheNameWasTaken wrote:
Okay, so it's not just upcoming Kickstarter games that you have a problem with, it's upcoming games in general.


No, I only have problems with Kickstarter games. Other upcoming games don't take up the same space.

Or, if I should phrase it like this: A healthy dose of talk and buzz about upcoming games is interesting. A constant stream of nothing but talk about upcoming games, is beyond that scope.

Non-kickstarter upcoming games aren't generating at all as much buss as the crowdfunded games. The reasons are as I have given before, that Kickstarter accelerates the "investment" behaviour, which causes the buyers to be the marketting device in a larger scale than a normal game you've preordered. Next, they're way many more. And as someone previously mentioned, there are many reasons to be more suspicious about crowdfunded upcoming games than non-crowdfunded upcoming games.

TheNameWasTaken wrote:
What is necessary for you to say that a game exists?

Exists as a product that has been fairly accessible to a fair portion of people (say, at least released in some 50 copies on some fair somewhere)
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Yeah people should just stop dreaming that they can make board games. It's not like you'll make any money. And it's not like anyone is interested. And its not like any of the ideas have ever come to fruition and succeeded in creating enjoyable gaming experiences worldwide. Innovation rests in companies that need to meet shareholder demands, not individuals who are the exact demographic said games were intended for; and spend their whole lives playing games. Get real people.

This is my proposal most modest.
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cheng wrote:
I agree with the OP. I'm beyond tired of Kickstarter. Besides my distaste for the business model, I like the idea of gatekeepers. Sure, I might not like every FFG or DoW release, but I know that there was a decision made by the publisher to risk money with a game, so they must have seen some potential in it. Any jackass with an idea, a camera, and some friends can put together a slick looking KS project for a poorly tested game that will utterly suck.


You like the idea of gatekeepers. OK, explain why on earth how gatekeepers are relevant when Rio Grande will put out stuff like Those Pesky Garden Gnomes while making us wait 3 years while they sit on Arctic Scavengers. Please, don't tell me the gatekeepers are looking for the best games. They're looking out for their buddies. That's part of why the small companies that are using KS well (Tasty Minstrel, Dice Hate Me, Crash) have made the inroads they have. They post rulebooks as well as images. They know they only exist because of their small but good reputation, and thus can't afford to put out bad games. No vaporware, but it might be a while.
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