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Subject: No love (or hate) of Hurtgen Forest/Atlantic Wall? rss

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oystein eker
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Wacht am Rhein was more or less messed up by the rules. But at least A.W. should be streamlined?

But no videos, session reports or reviews.

Are the scenarios to large? Did you guys just browse through the scenarios in HF and AW, shaked your heads and shelved them?

BTW.
DG seems to have AW in stock now. Is it correct?
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Malcolm Cameron
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I am no expert, but the 2012 edition of Wacht Am Rhein is said to have addressed many of the issues which arose out of the 2005 edition.

You probably know that the main WaR 2012 rules are the same as the main Huertgen Forest rules (Grand Operational Simulation Series or GOSS), but I mention that because your post sounded like it might be referring to the 2005 WaR rules.

Atlantic Wall apparently has an updated edition of the GOSS rules, which will (shortly/eventually - strike out whichever is inapplicable) be made available online, at least for those of us who bought WaR 2012 or H:HF but don't plan to buy AW 2014.

As to the game play, I am still learning the system. It is richly detailed and the games look great.

But I am yet to get sufficiently into the flow of the game to see whether the detail is an asset or a hindrance to the way the game works.

WaR certainly has some scenarios that do not seem to be too large to play (and others that are very very big).

From following the folder on Consimworld, it seems that AW 2014 is currently shipping to pre-orders. It may already be available for order from Decision, or it may yet be a few weeks away.

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oystein eker
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Thanks.

Atlantic Wall

DG price is $ 240 (in stock)
NWS shop price is $150 and estimate in stock in September.

I find both the price and time difference a bit strange.
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Peter
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I have to say I like the system, I have all 3 games (WAR2,HF and AW). The Atlantic Wall GOSS rules are more streamlined and cleaned up. I'm currently playing Hurtgen Forest, Bloody Bucket scenario using officially published VASSAL module from DG. I'm currently evaluating if I should switch to Atlantic Wall GOSS rules rather than the version that came with HF. Barrage rules have changed significantly (more streamlined). Now that Atlantic Wall is out, Joe plans to update the exclusive rules for WAR2 and HF so that we can fully use what's in the new AW system rulebook.

AW has a great production quality and it's rich on content. For me the game is definitely worth the price(I pre-ordered it). Yes the rulebook is wordy at about 60+ pages long, add exclusive rule book on top of that. Which means what we are dealing with here is a monster system. However, each game has a number of scenarios that scale from small to large, there is a plenty to choose from. Hurtgen Forest is very interesting from my point of view because both forces are more or less balanced and the outcome can go both ways.

I figured, if I have to learn a new system (coming from ASL) then might as well be something deep and interesting. I don't play quick fix games...(exception: The Hunters)

Peter
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Jason Russ
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eker wrote:
Thanks.

Atlantic Wall

DG price is $ 240 (in stock)
NWS shop price is $150 and estimate in stock in September.

I find both the price and time difference a bit strange.



The price and time difference that you cite are pretty normal for DG. At Wargame Depot, I also expect to have the game in September and will sell it for around $150 as well. Some publishers, DG included, wait a while to get new games out to distributors -- I presume so that they can sell more via their own website for much higher margins while the game is "hot". Other publishers, such as GMT or MMP get the games out to retailers and distributors right after they send out their own pre-orders.

The system, by the way, is quite detailed and I like it; it is certainly not for everyone and will never be as popular as something more accessible like OCS. I've played some Hurtgen and I look forward to getting my own copy of AW.


Cheers,
Jason
Wargame Depot
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Daniel Axe / "daxelos"
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Peso Pete,

Would you like to share further information about that alternate rulesset that you mention?
I also find the games very beautiful but the standard rules indeed are quite complex, IMHO.
Thanks in advance,
Daniel
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Robert Stuart
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Malcolm C wrote:
I am no expert, but the 2012 edition of Wacht Am Rhein is said to have addressed many of the issues which arose out of the 2005 edition.

You probably know that the main WaR 2012 rules are the same as the main Huertgen Forest rules (Grand Operational Simulation Series or GOSS), but I mention that because your post sounded like it might be referring to the 2005 WaR rules.

Atlantic Wall apparently has an updated edition of the GOSS rules, which will (shortly/eventually - strike out whichever is inapplicable) be made available online, at least for those of us who bought WaR 2012 or H:HF but don't plan to buy AW 2014.

As to the game play, I am still learning the system. It is richly detailed and the games look great.

But I am yet to get sufficiently into the flow of the game to see whether the detail is an asset or a hindrance to the way the game works.

WaR certainly has some scenarios that do not seem to be too large to play (and others that are very very big).

From following the folder on Consimworld, it seems that AW 2014 is currently shipping to pre-orders. It may already be available for order from Decision, or it may yet be a few weeks away.



It should be noted that DG has recently produced a VASSAL module for Wacht Am Rhein. I for one greatly appreciate this; it will make my getting into the system (which I haven't done yet), just so much easier.

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Peter
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Daniel,

What I wanted to say is that HF and WAR2 use the older version of GOSS rules therefore the exclusive rules (specific rules to each game) have to be updated so that the games can be played with the latest version of GOSS rulebook published with Atlantic Wall.

In Addition, I know that Joe is also working on GOSS lite version of the rules that will be less detailed as well as shorter than the full version.

Regarding VASSAL support for WAR/HF:

VASSAL modules are available for purchase at DG website for $0.

Step 1, Register at DG website (if you buy WAR2, HF, when register DG will send you errata counter sheets for both games for free)

Step 2, buy the modules here (yes you actually have to buy them for $0).

http://shop.decisiongames.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=106

The Vassal modules are great. Atlantic Wall VASSAL modules is currently in development.

Peter

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Daniel Axe / "daxelos"
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Peter (JG32_Jaguar): thank you for your extended reply.
Very interesting that Joe himself is thinking about a simple GOSS ruleset.
Good luck to him with that!

But I have to say that was actually trying to get through to Peter Martin = Peso Pete, who mentions some abridged ruleset in post # 4......
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Tom Willcockson
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These games are pretty spectacular looking. I know I'm not going to learn the system for quite a while, but it is on my to do list for the next year. Perhaps I can get an Atlantic Wall scenario up and running for the next June 6th.
 
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Jon Gautier

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Is the 2005 version of WaR playable with the 2012 rules?
 
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Tom Stearns
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Dieroll Honker wrote:
Is the 2005 version of WaR playable with the 2012 rules?


I used an early version of the GOSS rules and charts with the WaRII 2005 game. I think the newer counters have some different or added numbers on them, but I was able to adapt the newer rules pretty easily. However I really didn't have much trouble with the 2005 rules. Although I did take the better part of a year playing with the game and learning the rules.
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Michele Cafagna
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JG53_Jaguar wrote:
....

Step 1, Register at DG website (if you buy WAR2, HF, when register DG will send you errata counter sheets for both games for free)
...


Are these errata counters for 2005 edition? sort of an update kit?
 
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Malcolm Cameron
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cafagna wrote:
JG53_Jaguar wrote:
....

Step 1, Register at DG website (if you buy WAR2, HF, when register DG will send you errata counter sheets for both games for free)
...


Are these errata counters for 2005 edition? sort of an update kit?


No. The 2012 edition of WaR had quite a lot of counter errata. Enough that the company decided to print a countersheet of replacements and send it to everyone who registered.

Not sure about HF.

 
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Rich M
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Sorry but no game is worth $200+ . Especially if many other good games on the subject exist and are much more reasonable.



eker wrote:
Thanks.

Atlantic Wall

DG price is $ 240 (in stock)
NWS shop price is $150 and estimate in stock in September.

I find both the price and time difference a bit strange.
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Tom Stearns
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Rockin Rocko wrote:
Sorry but no game is worth $200+ . Especially if many other good games on the subject exist and are much more reasonable.



eker wrote:
Thanks.

Atlantic Wall

DG price is $ 240 (in stock)
NWS shop price is $150 and estimate in stock in September.

I find both the price and time difference a bit strange.


Was having this discussion with a friend on Saturday. Curious that the pre-orders were $240 but the retail price once distributed will be $150. Most pre-order systems discount the person supporting the game development with their pre-order. Doesn't seem to be the case here.

I agree that there are many other reasonably priced games on this campaign. If I get a chance to pick this up at a reasonable price (under $100) I'll jump at it.
 
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Peter
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gohrns wrote:
Rockin Rocko wrote:
Sorry but no game is worth $200+ . Especially if many other good games on the subject exist and are much more reasonable.



eker wrote:
Thanks.

Atlantic Wall

DG price is $ 240 (in stock)
NWS shop price is $150 and estimate in stock in September.

I find both the price and time difference a bit strange.


Was having this discussion with a friend on Saturday. Curious that the pre-orders were $240 but the retail price once distributed will be $150. Most pre-order systems discount the person supporting the game development with their pre-order. Doesn't seem to be the case here.

I agree that there are many other reasonably priced games on this campaign. If I get a chance to pick this up at a reasonable price (under $100) I'll jump at it.


The pre-order price was $180, I know because I placed mine in June...

If I remember correctly Case Blue (not sure about pre-order) sold for $160 + shipping. My pre-order of Rising Sun (ASL Japanese module) was on pre-order for $120 + shipping, full price is now I think $165 + shipping.

Yes some games are expensive no doubt, this is why I'm careful about my purchases (I'm a player not a collector). However there is a lot of material in Atlantic Wall (16 counter sheets, Seven 22 x 34 maps, bucket load of play aids (two sets,one for each player) 2 rulebooks. I mean you have Normandy campaign here from June 6th until end of August on 1 mile per hex battalion/company scale wargame...this can't be that cheap. Compared to Rising Sun which can't even be played on it's own (add BV3 + Rulebook).
 
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Peter
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Rockin Rocko wrote:
Sorry but no game is worth $200+ . Especially if many other good games on the subject exist and are much more reasonable.



eker wrote:
Thanks.

Atlantic Wall

DG price is $ 240 (in stock)
NWS shop price is $150 and estimate in stock in September.

I find both the price and time difference a bit strange.


Well, lets see what other games compare to Atlantic Wall that are on the same or similar scale with the same scope and time period ? I can only think of one other that was published few years back The Battle for Normandy. How much does the game cost? (now that's even out of print) + you will need an expansion The Battle for Normandy Expansion to meet the scope of Atlantic Wall. Once you have both of the GMT Normandy modules, the price will be similar to Atlantic Wall.
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NWS Wargaming Store
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Quote:
Thanks.

Atlantic Wall

DG price is $ 240 (in stock)
NWS shop price is $150 and estimate in stock in September.

I find both the price and time difference a bit strange.


Fact check at work here,

Quote:
http://decisiongames.com/wpsite/whats-new/

Decision Games – next 90 days

Atlantic Wall is beginning to ship to pledge customers and D-Day at Tarawa begin shipping in two weeks. Both games will release to stores in September.


We have no control over when DCG decides to send games to distributors/retailers. That is exactly why I post this on our store,

PREORDER: ESTIMATED SHIPPING TO RETAILERS SEPT 2014

I go by whatever information is offered, if any, by the publishers.

As to pricing.. my updated pricing is $144.99. As to anyone finding the game below "$100".. don't count on it unless its in used condition. That figure is far below the "distributor" rate.

DCG just started shipping to pre-orders on July 28th - according to their website. On average, especially for board games, retailers do not get their orders until around 30-60 days after a launch. I keep in constant contact with our DCG supplier who in turn keeps in contact with DCG on a regular basis. In the case of DCG saving money means waiting longer unfortunately. In return for my customer loyalty and patience I try to offer the best possible pricing that I can.

If there are any questions please let me know.

Thanks
Christopher Dean
NWS

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Dune Tiger
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Always been tempted to get WaR (I like me a good Bulge game), but heard so many conflicting stories about it that it's hard for me to make a "what the hell" judgment call on such a pricey game. Plus it seems so huge that I might not even get around to it for a couple of years.
 
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