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Subject: Stop, exchange and below the stack rss

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David L.
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If a stop card is placed on the left side of the hazard and you use exchange on any of the other cards on the left, are you still allowed to take one replacing card and place it on the left side or does "Stop" prevent you from doing that? What if you use "Below the stack" instead of "Replace"?

I'm inclined to think that you can take a new card from the pile when using "Replace" but not when using "Below the stack", but I'd like to confirm just in case I'm playing the game wrong.

Also, if the "Stop" card was placed on the right side then no restrictions would apply, right?
 
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Mark L
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kenartyo wrote:
If a stop card is placed on the left side of the hazard and you use exchange on any of the other cards on the left, are you still allowed to take one replacing card and place it on the left side or does "Stop" prevent you from doing that?

You can do that. "Stop" prevents you drawing new cards on the left-hand side, but it doesn't prevent you using the abilities of other cards like "exchange".

Quote:
What if you use "Below the stack" instead of "Replace"?

My first instinct is to say that you can draw a replacement card in this case too, because again, it's the ability of a card.

But on reflection, I think maybe not, because the description of "below the stack" says you may draw a replacement card if the card you put below the stack is on the left. This implies that drawing a replacement is not in itself a part of the card's effect; you get to draw a replacement because you now have a "gap" on the left.

After all, if you use "below the stack" for a card on the right-hand side you don't get to draw a replacement, so maybe the same applies if the "stop" card is in effect.

Quote:
Also, if the "Stop" card was placed on the right side then no restrictions would apply, right?

Right!


(edit: slight clarification)
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Rob Rob
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IIRC, the rule is a stop card only affects the left side and only stops you from any additional free card draws. Cards already in play can be altered by card effects, you can continue to "buy" cards to play on the right side and if you have a means to remove or flip the stop card - you may resume drawing free cards on the left up to your original hazard free draw limit.
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Niko
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Robrob wrote:
IIRC, the rule is a stop card only affects the left side and only stops you from any additional free card draws. Cards already in play can be altered by card effects, you can continue to "buy" cards to play on the right side and if you have a means to remove or flip the stop card - you may resume drawing free cards on the left up to your original hazard free draw limit.

That's how I understand it too. So replacing a card works, but when putting a card below the stack you wouldn't draw a free replacement for it until the Stop card is removed.
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Note that the rules for 1x below say you can exchange a card if the one placed below the deck came from the left side. This exchange is part of the 1x special ability, not a free draw (which would be an independent action). I see no reason why having a Stop card in play would affect this exchange.
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Mark L
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Sphere wrote:
Note that the rules for 1x below say you can exchange a card if the one placed below the deck came from the left side. This exchange is part of the 1x special ability, not a free draw (which would be an independent action). I see no reason why having a Stop card in play would affect this exchange.

Hey Sphere, you're back! Good to see you, hope you've been OK.

Although you're right that the rules use the word "exchange", they also say you only get the replacement card if you're removing one of the free cards from the left side.

If you don't get a replacement card for a card removed from the right, the implication to me is that a replacement card is allowed on the left only because removing one card from the left means you now have an empty "free draw" slot.

If that's the case, then the "stop" card (if it is on the left) should prevent you getting that replacement card, because it eliminates free draws -- effectively making the left side like the right side!


(I think we all agree that if you use a "1 x exchange" card you do get a replacement, because there are no such exceptions there.)
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xipuloxx wrote:
Hey Sphere, you're back! Good to see you, hope you've been OK.

I'm fine, thank you.

xipuloxx wrote:
Although you're right that the rules use the word "exchange", they also say you only get the replacement card if you're removing one of the free cards from the left side.

I think that's simply descriptive - all the cards on the left are free cards.

xipuloxx wrote:
If you don't get a replacement card for a card removed from the right, the implication to me is that a replacement card is allowed on the left only because removing one card from the left means you now have an empty "free draw" slot.

But it doesn't say you get a free draw, it says you can exchange.

xipuloxx wrote:
(I think we all agree that if you use a "1 x exchange" card you do get a replacement, because there are no such exceptions there.)

I certainly agree that you can do exchanges, and I doubt the use of the term exchange in the description for 1x below is an accident.
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Mark L
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Sphere wrote:
xipuloxx wrote:
If you don't get a replacement card for a card removed from the right, the implication to me is that a replacement card is allowed on the left only because removing one card from the left means you now have an empty "free draw" slot.

But it doesn't say you get a free draw, it says you can exchange.

Yes, but the point is that you don't get a replacement card if you remove one from the right. So it's not an exchange in the exact same way as the "1 x exchange" and "2 x exchange" cards.

Sphere wrote:
xipuloxx wrote:
(I think we all agree that if you use a "1 x exchange" card you do get a replacement, because there are no such exceptions there.)

I certainly agree that you can do exchanges, and I doubt the use of the term exchange in the description for 1x below is an accident.

I'm not so sure. The English rules use the same word there, but the German rules don't. For the "exchange" cards, the word "tauschen" (i.e. exchange) is used consistently, but for the "1 x under the stack" card, they say you may draw "eine Ersatzkarte" (i.e. a replacement card).

So I'm not at all convinced it is meant to be the same thing. I think the use of the same word in the English rules may be an artifact of translation.
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Fair enough; a reasonable case can be made for either interpretation. Hopefully Friedemann or Henning will see this thread and give us the official word.
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xipuloxx wrote:
For the "exchange" cards, the word "tauschen" (i.e. exchange) is used consistently, but for the "1 x under the stack" card, they say you may draw "eine Ersatzkarte" (i.e. a replacement card).

Just out of curiosity, what term is used for "free draw"?
 
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Mark L
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The rules never actually refer to "free draws" (that was something I thought was implicit rather than explicit), just to "free cards", which in German is "kostenfrei Karten".

As far as I can tell with my feeble German and Google Translate, the closest it comes is on p4, under "2. Fight Against the Hazard", where the German says "wie viele Kampfkarten du kostenfrei ziehen darfst", which is translated as "the number of fighting cards you can draw for free" (kostenfrei ziehen = draw for free).
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Xander
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Since no German speakers have intervened here yet, here's my translation of the "1x below the draw pile" section in the rules:
Quote:
You may move one of the revealed fighting cards to the bottom of your Robinson pile. If you choose one of the free cards to the left of the hazard card, you may draw a card to replace it. If the pile is empty, reshuffle as usual and put the card on the bottom of the new pile.


Seems unambiguous to me: You get a card, the STOP effect doesn't apply.
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Mark L
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Znirk wrote:
Since no German speakers have intervened here yet, here's my translation of the "1x below the draw pile" section in the rules:
Quote:
You may move one of the revealed fighting cards to the bottom of your Robinson pile. If you choose one of the free cards to the left of the hazard card, you may draw a card to replace it. If the pile is empty, reshuffle as usual and put the card on the bottom of the new pile.


Seems unambiguous to me: You get a card, the STOP effect doesn't apply.

But the rules don't say the "stop" effect doesn't apply. They simply don't tell us whether it overrides the normal effect of "1x below the draw pile" (to draw a replacement card) or not.

Certainly you can interpret it as meaning that since no exception is mentioned, the "stop" card doesn't count as an exception. But you can also interpret it as meaning that "stop" prevents you from drawing free cards including the one you would normally draw as a replacement in this case.

The point I was making above is that it's ambiguous whether the replacement card counts as a "free card". My interpretation is yes, because you only get it if you remove one of the free cards on the left (not if you remove a card from the right). But I don't really think it's very clear.
 
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xipuloxx wrote:
The point I was making above is that it's ambiguous whether the replacement card counts as a "free card". My interpretation is yes, because you only get it if you remove one of the free cards on the left (not if you remove a card from the right). But I don't really think it's very clear.

I did and still do think it's clear, and I'll take another whack at describing how it works out in my mind:

1) Individual cards override game state.

2) The Stop card overrides the game state and has an ongoing effect: you can no longer draw cards. In other words, the game state has changed.

3) The 1x Below card overrides the game state.
 
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Mark L
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OK, let me try a different angle too:

Why do you think it is that the "1 x below the stack" card says you may draw a replacement card if (and only if) the card you removed was one of your free cards on the left?

The "exchange x 1" card has no such restriction. If you remove a card from the right with it, you get a replacement card regardless. So why is there this difference?

To me, it seems that you only get a replacement card on the left because you now have a gap for a free card, so you can draw another free card. In other words, the replacement card is one of your free cards. If you're not allowed to draw any free cards (because the "stop" card is present) then you don't get to draw a replacement card.
 
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xipuloxx wrote:
Why do you think it is that the "1 x below the stack" card says you may draw a replacement card if (and only if) the card you removed was one of your free cards on the left?

It says that to make clear that you don't get to draw one if you discard a card from the right.

The fact you're able to re-use a favorable card in the current deck makes 1x below somewhat stronger than 1x exchange, while not being able to replace a card removed from the right makes it somewhat weaker. On balance the two cards have similar value. Having such situationally dependent subtleties makes for interesting choices.
 
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xipuloxx wrote:
To me, it seems that you only get a replacement card on the left because you now have a gap for a free card, so you can draw another free card. In other words, the replacement card is one of your free cards. If you're not allowed to draw any free cards (because the "stop" card is present) then you don't get to draw a replacement card.

Other cards are executed in their entirety, and may or may not change the game state for future actions. It seems to me as if you're treating the 1x below as if it weren't a single card for which you perform the instruction fully, but rather an action you complete (putting the card under), and a subsequent action you consider separately as if it were done in another turn.
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Mariusz Kosecki
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Sphere wrote:
xipuloxx wrote:
The point I was making above is that it's ambiguous whether the replacement card counts as a "free card". My interpretation is yes, because you only get it if you remove one of the free cards on the left (not if you remove a card from the right). But I don't really think it's very clear.

I did and still do think it's clear, and I'll take another whack at describing how it works out in my mind:

1) Individual cards override game state.

2) The Stop card overrides the game state and has an ongoing effect: you can no longer draw cards. In other words, the game state has changed.

3) The 1x Below card overrides the game state.

I will also state my opinion on this case. I think that you are not entitled to draw a replacement card after putting a "free card" below the pile while the Stop aging card is in play. So I completely agree with xipuloxx and that is how I always played.

Why? Because in all of the games I played there's a general rule that all the disallowed actions override the allowed actions. So if Below the Pile allows you to draw a replacement card on the left (but because there are free cards to draw, not because the card's effect says so), you can do that only if Stop card doesn't disallow that. The order of played cards should not matter. If you want more "free cards", you should put Stop card below the pile instead.
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Mark James Schryver
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Quote:
So if Below the Pile allows you to draw a replacement card on the left (but because there are free cards to draw, not because the card's effect says so), you can do that only if Stop card doesn't disallow that.

Unfortunately, your argument, while valid, is unsound.

It IS the case that 'Below the Pile' allows you to draw a replacement card because the card's effect says so.

It is NOT the case that 'Below the Pile' allows you to draw a replacement card because there are free cards to draw.

Therefore, your statement that I quoted is valid: if your premises were all correct, then your conclusion would be correct.

But it's unsound: since one of your premises is 100% wrong, your conclusion is also wrong.

_______________________

Bigger picture, on this whole subject: I always thought of 'Stop' like a roadblock, or a dam.

I should note that I lay out my free cards from R to L. When I draw a 'Stop,' nothing else can happen to the left of it. So if I'm facing a Hazard that lets me draw five cards, and 'Stop' is the fourth card I draw, then I have three cards on the table to work with - the first three cards I drew, before I hit the 'Stop.'

I can do whatever I want to with those three cards: I can tap them to use their special abilities, I can 'Exchange' them, I can 'Below the Pile' them, etc.

The facts that A) my fourth card (the 'Stop') is useless, and B) I can't play a fifth card (because of the 'Stop'), don't in any way affect the three cards already in play.

I think any other interpretation of the rules, as written, is stretching credulity to the breaking point.

I hope we get an official weigh-in on this one, though. Could be that there's a translation glitch, and the rules are supposed to support the other argument.
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Mariusz Kosecki
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In order to explain: I already said, it's just my opinion, I don't want to argue about the designer's intentions. But you must agree that I have a point to think like I'm thinking. When I read that "Below the Pile" allows you to draw a replacement card on the left, I treated that as outcome of the effect of the card, not its full effect's explanation. Hence the "wrong premises" in your opinion...

mjschryver wrote:
I hope we get an official weigh-in on this one, though. Could be that there's a translation glitch, and the rules are supposed to support the other argument.

This hopefully
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dannte wrote:
... But you must agree that I have a point to think like I'm thinking...

mjschryver wrote:
I hope we get an official weigh-in on this one, though...

This hopefully

We're just spinning round in circles at this point. Note my post from last July:

Sphere wrote:
Fair enough; a reasonable case can be made for either interpretation. Hopefully Friedemann or Henning will see this thread and give us the official word.

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So is there any official ruling for this confusion?
It has been a year long though.
 
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Henning Kröpke
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alay_pewpew wrote:
So is there any official ruling for this confusion?
It has been a year long though.


First of all, sorry! snore

Second, the official ruling whistle

The "Stop" card on the left side only stops the drawing of free cards. In other words: When placing the stop card on the left, you are not allowed to draw further free cards "after" that Stop card.

If you use actions, you can use them on any fighting card on the left or right side of the hazard.

So using an "exchange" action on one of the left cards, which are "before" the stop card, allows you to exchange that card with a new fighting card from the draw stack.

Using a "below the stack" action on one of the left cards, which are "before" the stop card, allows you to place that card below the draw stack and draw a replacement card.

Have fun with Friday!

Henning
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Hurray! Thank you Henning.
 
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Mark L
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Thanks, Henning.

So my interpretation was wrong, but I'm happy to have an official answer. And now the game is slightly easier for me! (In the rare cases that it matters.)
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