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Subject: Convince me not to go Borg -- (Collective OP2) rss

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Daniel Horton
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I was all excited to play test some builds today. I received Shelby from OP1, so I thought a high defence Fed build would be viable. Here was the first one I drew up (venue is faction pure):

Flagship Inde (Fed) (10)

USS Voyager (30)
Rudolph Ransom (2)
Flagship (0)
Hikaru Sulu (3)
Elizabeth Shelby (2)
Tom Paris (4)
Pavel Chekov (3)
Ship SP: 44

U.S.S. Defiant (24)
Jean-Luc Picard (6)
Quantum Torpedoes (6)
Ship SP: 36

Total Build SP: 90

Looked pretty fun: 8 agility on Voyager, with one BS converted, all blanks re-rolled, and one evade token. Then the Defiant gets three actions, so it can continually re-enable Quantums, TL, and evade as well.

Then I read through the rules again and upon a closer inspection, realized that until there is only 1 ship left, the farthest back ship(s) never get fired upon. So what faction can stay barely in range 3 moving back and forth without even receiving aux tokens?

Someone already posted today how the tac cube gets a huge advantage in OP3 by not receiving 2 damage and losing actions when getting hit by the BCT and also having much better chance of getting the 'all ships in range bonus' but I think the movement advantage in OP2 is much more phenomenal. I really can't picture any fleet standing a chance when there fleet is continually getting attacked while a Borg player can just dance around range 3 with no penalty.

Oh and if you are afraid that the enemy will out-shoot you and not die before time runs out, then just go dual spheres and you should be fine. I actually think that is the best strategy, over one tac cube:

List Name

Borg Sphere (38)
Tactical Drone (3)
Borg Assimilation Tubules (8)
Ship SP: 49

Borg Sphere (38)
Tactical Drone (3)
Ship SP: 41

Total Build SP: 90

Generated by STAW Builder
http://www.dracossoftware.com/STAWHome.html

--12 die with target locks even if you lose your actions and ass tubes to mess with your opponent if you feel you need to. I'll still probably playtest something this week just for fun, but I really can't imagine anything beating that build. We need a meta-change yesterday.

 
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Eric Little
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Re: Convince me not to go Borg collective op2
haniel wrote:

I was all excited to play test some builds today. I received Shelby from OP1, so I thought a high defence Fed build would be viable. Here was the first one I drew up (venue is faction pure):

Flagship Inde (Fed) (10)

USS Voyager (30)
Rudolph Ransom (2)
Flagship (0)
Hikaru Sulu (3)
Elizabeth Shelby (2)
Tom Paris (4)
Pavel Chekov (3)
Ship SP: 44

U.S.S. Defiant (24)
Jean-Luc Picard (6)
Quantum Torpedoes (6)
Ship SP: 36

Total Build SP: 90

Looked pretty fun: 8 agility on Voyager, with one BS converted, all blanks re-rolled, and one evade token. Then the Defiant gets three actions, so it can continually re-enable Quantums, TL, and evade as well.

Then I read through the rules again and upon a closer inspection, realized that until there is only 1 ship left, the farthest back ship(s) never get fired upon. So what faction can stay barely in range 3 moving back and forth without even receiving aux tokens?

Someone already posted today how the tac cube gets a huge advantage in OP3 by not receiving 2 damage and losing actions when getting hit by the BCT and also having much better chance of getting the 'all ships in range bonus' but I think the movement advantage in OP2 is much more phenomenal. I really can't picture any fleet standing a chance when there fleet is continually getting attacked while a Borg player can just dance around range 3 with no penalty.

Oh and if you are afraid that the enemy will out-shoot you and not die before time runs out, then just go dual spheres and you should be fine. I actually think that is the best strategy, over one tac cube:

List Name

Borg Sphere (38)
Tactical Drone (3)
Borg Assimilation Tubules (8)
Ship SP: 49

Borg Sphere (38)
Tactical Drone (3)
Ship SP: 41

Total Build SP: 90

Generated by STAW Builder
http://www.dracossoftware.com/STAWHome.html

--12 die with target locks even if you lose your actions and ass tubes to mess with your opponent if you feel you need to. I'll still probably playtest something this week just for fun, but I really can't imagine anything beating that build. We need a meta-change yesterday.



You wouldn't get 3 actions on the Defiant. The flagship specifically grants a second action to a ship. In your scenario the flagship moves first so the Defiant hasn't even taken its first action; second comes after first. Even if the flagship moved second it still wouldn't work because Picard would have been your second action.

I really wish the independent federation flagship wasn't worded so specifically, but it is. Probably for the best too.
 
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Daniel Horton
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Re: Convince me not to go Borg collective op2
yeah, yeah, that was just my first throw together build without thinking it all the way through
 
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Xander Fulton
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Re: Convince me not to go Borg collective op2
While I can see the appeal of the ass tubes - it's one of the few ways you can actually futz with your opponent's strategy this time - I'm not sure it's worth the cost over alternatives.

Specifically, flagship and generic captains. (Why generic? Well, because no matter how low you go, you STILL shoot before the BCT. And the Borg Tac Drone ability *IS* handy...but it's effectively the same thing as a target lock. In regular use, that makes it better, because you don't have to announce your target, it works against "any" ship, it can work against cloakers, etc...but none of that applies in this scenario. You've got ONE target, it's not moving, it's not cloaking...just take the TL and don't bother with drones)

I think you'd have more luck with something like:

Quote:
Borg Sphere (38)
Four of Twelve (2)
Flagship Independent (Klingon) (10)

Borg Sphere 4270 (40)

Total Build SP: 90


Your ease of maneuvering allows you to move your ships backwards and forward to skirt the very edge of range 3, and decide which of them is going to be 'the farthest away' (and so not getting shot at - that same flexibility of maneuver that lets you keep at exactly range 3 ALSO lets you control the balance of enemy fire across your ships).
 
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Daniel Horton
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Re: Convince me not to go Borg collective op2
That definitely is an improvement over my quick-build, but the point of this thread is for someone to convince me that there is a non-Borg viable build when Borg gets such an advantage in this event from it's unique movement.

I feel like the designers just want everyone to play Borg in every event. At the venue I play at, Borg have won every single event since Dom OP3, with Arena being the sole exception. And now OP2 and OP3 of the collective have built-in advantages for Borg.
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Re: Convince me not to go Borg collective op2
I've definitely seen/tried some builds for other factions that are fully capable of putting out more damage than two (and especially one) Borg ships. The BCT doesn't really do a whole lot of damage for the majority of the match, and the matches typically go to time instead of the fleets being wiped out. Dawdling around with your nearly naked spheres won't really give you the damage potential to out do someone that's actually taken the time to design a fleet with the scenario in mind.
 
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Thomas Ryan
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Re: Convince me not to go Borg collective op2
the ruling on "Opponent" makes the defiant less useful.
 
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Eric Little
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Re: Convince me not to go Borg collective op2
haniel wrote:
That definitely is an improvement over my quick-build, but the point of this thread is for someone to convince me that there is a non-Borg viable build when Borg gets such an advantage in this event from it's unique movement.

I feel like the designers just want everyone to play Borg in every event. At the venue I play at, Borg have won every single event since Dom OP3, with Arena being the sole exception. And now OP2 and OP3 of the collective have built-in advantages for Borg.


That makes much more sense than how I read your title. I thought you were super excited about going and wanted someone to convince you not to go.
 
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Dan Evans
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Re: Convince me not to go Borg collective op2
ejlittle wrote:
That makes much more sense than how I read your title. I thought you were super excited about going and wanted someone to convince you not to go.


That's exactly how I read it too. The title needs a hyphen or something, "Convince me not to go Borg -- Collective OP2"
 
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Joseph van der Jagt
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When I read a comment that's really annoying and scroll over to see who wrote it, more often than not it's YourMonkey06. Is this person a troll or just driven by inscrutable agendas concerning the game.


YourMonkey06, why don't you provide one of those tailored lists, at least, that do so much more damage than two Borg spheres instead of just claiming they exist so high-handedly.

Also, if I wasn't clear: Your opinions seem ludicrous to me. I don't like you. I wish you never posted on the boards again.

 
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I'm sorry you don't like me? Not my problem. You're free to hide my posts if they are that offensive to you (though I was unaware stating my experiences with testing the scenario under discussion was in anyway offensive... but hey you learn something new every day).

And I see no reason to answer your question/s if your only agenda is to insult me.
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Joseph van der Jagt
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1) I will certainly be hiding your posts from now on and having a better experience on the forums because of it.

2) I have no interest in seeing whatever lists you allegedly saw outperform the Spheres. My suggestion was for the benefit of the OP since your vague claims offer him nothing to go on in themselves.

3) You did not state your experience. You alluded to it without detail and described the original poster's plan of two spheres staying at range 3 in pejorative terms (dawdling) in an effort to discredit it without any real evidence or argument, for reasons of your own that I don't care to guess at. In other words, you provided nothing of value and were annoying while doing it.

4) It's not your problem BUT since my description of your post is inescapably correct and you've now read it you will either have to admit you were wrong--if only to yourself--which would be great. Or you will have to rationalize things to yourself which will ultimately only make you like yourself less--which is ok too, I guess. Either way, I am about to enter the blessed realm of never having to read one of your posts again.
 
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Yeah...none of that was accurate, but ok. I'm not sure why you'd envision I would care what people I am literally never going to play with run enough to have some hidden agenda. I just stated my opinion based on my experience, and you didn't like that opinion. End of story.

You also seemed to feel it was ok to irrationally attack me personally for that opinion. Why you think that makes you a better person, I'm guessing I will never figure out.

So steering this back on topic, this particular Borg build is pretty solidly countered by a 3 (+blind) build with high base attack (e.g., Klingons) and/or buffs from Donatra/Martok/etc. Unless the Borg Cube has some pretty good rolls, it doesn't roll too many hits and ships survive longer than you'd think. 5 unmodified dice is only 2.5 hits average before defense rolls. Usually time is going to be called before annhilation of either side.

Also, don't forget the coordinated attack bonus which does favor fleets with more ships a bit (as does just rolling more dice due to having more ships).
 
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On topic: Play Borg. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. Sorry if I had something more to bring than Star Trek jokes I would! Maybe the return of some maneuverable Klingon/Romulan ships builds?

Off topic: jdvanderjagt your attacks against yourmonkey06 are completely uncalled for. They go against the Boardgamegeek community rules. If you don't have anything nice to say, you need to post on another website. BGG has always been a friendly community (or cordial at the least) and I for one would like to see it stay that way.

I've found that yourmonkey06 always has something to add, he is succinct and doesn't flourish it, and more often than not he's right (even if I don't want to admit it lol). If he writes something I don't like, do you know what I do? I move on and don't post. I recommend you do the same.
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Tibor Corbett
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Well... That was awkward.

Back to the topic...

I'm liking the idea that this OP has the potential to go well outside the established meta.

I'd be inclined to run a swarmy, TOS era Klingon build, ignoring captain skill, simply because this OP will be a chance to try something different.

Never used a K'Tinga before...
 
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Daniel van de Laar
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XanderF wrote:

Your ease of maneuvering allows you to move your ships backwards and forward to skirt the very edge of range 3, and decide which of them is going to be 'the farthest away' (and so not getting shot at - that same flexibility of maneuver that lets you keep at exactly range 3 ALSO lets you control the balance of enemy fire across your ships).


Since the BCT has a 360 degree firing arc and an unlimited Range for its attacks, the bouncing in and out of range three may not necessarily determine who is closer. If two players are playing two-ship builds, and line up against the edge, and both move parallel to, rather than towards, the cube, the three closest ships will be shot at even though none of the ships are within range 3 of the sphere. They will be treated (as per the instructions) as if they were at range 3 and receive the +1 Defence die, even though they would have been otherwise out of range.

Having maneuverability to pull one of your ships furthest away from the cube is certainly handy, but if that ship isn't close enough to fire, it is actually wasting that round, because it isn't shooting the cube.

Consider this: Most of the damage that is going to be done to the cube will be done early in the game, because you will have more ships, and be taking less damage. If you try and make sure one of your ships is furthest from the cube, it'll be the other guy doing damage when he dies, you'll take more damage and die sooner, giving you less time to do your own damage.

The strategies that will gain the most points, it seems to me, will be those that put more ships on the table, and get them firing sooner. Two Vor'Chas and a Negh'Var with a klingon flag ship, staying cloaked, plus whatever you get in the Blind Booster, = something like 18 dice a round (approximately 9 hits a round) - they should last, if cloaking, and sticking to range 3, ten rounds each, so assuming the game goes on long enough, they could theoretically pull in 90 hits, if they fly in such a way as to keep the cube in arc at all times.

An opponent going up against such a fleet, will only delay the time that these ships are facing only 5 dice. Even if you bring in a single ship and one more for the booster, you're looking at rolling attacks for six ships and then receiving attacks for at least 4 ships. The first rounds, no matter how much caffeine you've consumed, are going to take up a significant chunk of game time.

There will probably be some wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth as hard lessons are learned by those who brought expensive, damage cancelling builds to the table, hoping to out live their opponent, then rack up points unchallenged after their opponents have all been wiped out - because the more ships you have, the slower the whole thing gets.

Anyway, those are just my thoughts.

DANVAN

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Quote:
An opponent going up against such a fleet, will only delay the time that these ships are facing only 5 dice. Even if you bring in a single ship and one more for the booster, you're looking at rolling attacks for six ships and then receiving attacks for at least 4 ships. The first rounds, no matter how much caffeine you've consumed, are going to take up a significant chunk of game time.

There will probably be some wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth as hard lessons are learned by those who brought expensive, damage cancelling builds to the table, hoping to out live their opponent, then rack up points unchallenged after their opponents have all been wiped out - because the more ships you have, the slower the whole thing gets.


This, pretty much, is what most theorycrafting over this scenario doesn't account for. I've seen people claim they're going to speed through the first few rounds in 10 minutes, whilst their opponent is quickly wiped out and then spend the rest of the round throwing dice at the cube. That's not going to happen. There are usually 6 (or more) ships on the table in the Collective events due to the blind ships. That's a lot of ships to move, take actions for and resolve attacks. The rounds do not go fast. The Borg throwing just an unmodified 5 dice is going to ensure that its prolonged even further (not running into an opponent that obliterates one or more ships with a big alpha strike here...). A high percentage of these OP2 matches are going to be called due to time with most of the ships still on the table.
 
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Daniel van de Laar
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yourmonkey06 wrote:


This, pretty much, is what most theorycrafting over this scenario doesn't account for. I've seen people claim they're going to speed through the first few rounds in 10 minutes, whilst their opponent is quickly wiped out and then spend the rest of the round throwing dice at the cube. That's not going to happen. There are usually 6 (or more) ships on the table in the Collective events due to the blind ships. That's a lot of ships to move, take actions for and resolve attacks. The rounds do not go fast. The Borg throwing just an unmodified 5 dice is going to ensure that its prolonged even further (not running into an opponent that obliterates one or more ships with a big alpha strike here...). A high percentage of these OP2 matches are going to be called due to time with most of the ships still on the table.


Agreed. like most people, my first thoughts were reactionary in origin - the Borg Cube would or could be throwing 12 dice eventually, and I wanted something afield that could swallow that and smile. But then I remembered how reality works. More ships means slower rounds, Better to go in with a cloaked Klingon fleet, and some fighters taking 5 dice for most of the game (2.5 hits on average, against 5 defensive dice negating 2 hits on average), and just throw dice at the thing round after round, as it statistically fails to destroy my fleet, than to build some super evasive fleet that doesn't get hit very often, but doesn't do a lot of damage as a trade off.

In fact, I am counting on people bringing fleets weighted towards evasion to the OP, their inability to get hit will keep the Borg using only 5 attack dice - and allow my stripped down vorcha fleet to "live long and prosper".
 
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James Patrick
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yourmonkey06 wrote:
I've definitely seen/tried some builds for other factions that are fully capable of putting out more damage than two (and especially one) Borg ships. The BCT doesn't really do a whole lot of damage for the majority of the match, and the matches typically go to time instead of the fleets being wiped out. Dawdling around with your nearly naked spheres won't really give you the damage potential to out do someone that's actually taken the time to design a fleet with the scenario in mind.


Played this out for the first time tonight using my son as my opponent. He's not an Attack Wing player but he's pretty sharp from all the heroclix matches, I guess. He won with the Enterprise Refit, S'Gorn, and the generic Kllingon blind ship. I had Voyager, The Apnex and the Romulan Blind Ship. Stupid build on my part. The Apnex had zero value as Donatra's buff didn't make up for the fact that I only had 2 shooting ships to his 3. I must have been tired when I came up with that nonsense. I also forgot about the Coordinated Attack. I need to lay off the cold medicine when I'm putting builds together...

Anyway, you're right Yo'monkey. The BCT really doesn't throw a lot of dice with 6 ships on the table. We called time with all six ships still in flying condition. His Refit and K'Tinga were down to one hull each. Mine were essentially unscathed. Voyager was down to three shields. That was it. Three good cloakers and a blind ship can toss a ton'o dice. One ship can't match it. Not even a Borg Cube. And hanging around, in and out of range 3 just means you're taking fewer shots. (Does firing at range 3 give the BCT a single defense roll?) I'm going to slap something else together. Naked cloakers maybe? Fighters? Maybe?
 
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Quote:
Does firing at range 3 give the BCT a single defense roll?


Yes.
 
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Dave Benhart
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But how does a 3 ship Klingon cloaked fleet compare when all it is doing for Actions is Cloaking every turn? And only getting 2.5 hits each (7.5 hits total) on the Borg? Adding in Battles Stations or Target Lock Command Tokens only bumps that to 8.75 for two turns. How many turns are we expecting the ships to live?

I.K.S. Maht-H'A (28)
Klingon Captain (0)
Total (28)

Negh'var Class (28)
Klingon Captain (0)
Total (28)

Negh'var Class (28)
Klingon Captain (0)
Total (28)

Command Tokens (5)
(I'm thinking Battlestations, Target Lock, Set Attack Die, Reroll Attack Dice, Reroll Defense Dice)

Fleet total: 89

Generated by Space Dock for Mac
http://spacedockapp.org

7.5 - 8.75 damage each turn on average with 1.875 Evades each.


Compared to this, which will rolls fewer dice (by only 3) but has a much higher hit percentage. And still has decent survivability against the Borg.

Cardassian Keldon Class (24)
Flagship: Independent (Romulan) (10)
Jean-Luc Picard (7)
Captured Intelligence (3)
Boheeka (2)
Hikaru Sulu (4)
Total (50)
6 damage (Battlestations, Target Lock, Boheeka), 4 defense + Sulu convert = 2.5 Evades, better than a Klingon cloak. I've used the BS/JLP/Boheeka core of this ship several times. It's very, very consistent.

Cardassian Keldon Class (24)
Gul Dukat (5)
Invaluable Advice (2)
Elizabeth Shelby (3)
Tetryon Emissions (3)
Total (37)
3.75 hits (5 dice * .75 for the Battlestations from Dukat), 6 defense (1 base, 1 Shelby, 1 from nearby Flagship, 3 Tetryon) + Shelby rerolls blanks = 3.09 Evades if I did the math correctly. Better than a Klingon Cloak, although the TE is only every-other-round. 1.55 Evades w/o the TE I think.

Fleet total: 87

Generated by Space Dock for Mac
http://spacedockapp.org

Combined 9.75 damage every round. And much wider firing arcs. Also easier to get the Coordinated Attack bonus. Evades are equal to or better than the Klingon cloaks. The Talents in this build were me looking for something to help fill out the 90 points. Is the BCT considered to have any active Shields? If not, Antiproton Scan for an additional +1 attack die.


I was trying to build a 2nd Keldon that could use Scan + Breen Aide and still keep Shelby for the additional defense, but it just wasn't working out. I'm going to work on that some more, perhaps swapping the Captains or changing to the "free Scan" Flagship. The problem is the Keldon only has 1 base Crew slot.

Both builds have the problem of your "ally" causing a crash, thereby having the Cloak drop or losing Actions for the turn. Sure, with generic Captains the Klingons would be moving first/early so crashes are less likely.

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Daniel Lim
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Try a klingon list such as this instead. I'm not a math expert, so I'm not going to calculate the exact hits and such... but you are rolling 4, 5, 5 dice for each ship. (klingon ships will use cloak every round; Ch'Thang may just use evade for survivability).

-1 blank --> hit conversion from flagship
-1 reroll from martok
-nudaq has a battlestation conversion
-worf rerolls blanks
-Ch'tang rerolls attack dice for each attack


List Name

Resource: Flagship Klingon (10)

I.K.S. ChTang (22)
Martok (6)
Flagship (0)
Ship SP: 28

K'T'Inga Class (22)
Nu'Daq (3)
Ship SP: 25

K'Vort Class (24)
Worf (3)
Ship SP: 27

Total Build SP: 90

Generated by STAW Builder
http://www.dracossoftware.com/STAWHome.html


Overall, I'm betting that there will be a very high likelihood of almost all the dice hitting. Greater than 75% hit rate for all ships at the very least. (14 *.75 = ~10.5 hits per round or more)

Secondly, the klingon has 3 ships compared to the dominion 2 ships. They would be getting 1 more point per round because of the coordinated fire rule. Do not forget that you can get another point if a ship scores at least 1 critical hit; there is a higher chance that crits will come up for the klingons because of the higher number of dice being thrown (and the rerolls).

I think this type of klingon fleet will eventually score more points than the cardassian fleet.
 
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Dave Benhart
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For math purposes, rerolls vs battlestations are effectively the same: .75 damage for every dice rolled. On average, 4 attack dice will fall this way on average:

1 blank
1 battlestations
2 hits/crits (technically 1.5 hits & .5 crits, but...)

A reroll of the 2 "misses" (blanks & battlestations) adds 1 more hit/crit.
So getting a reroll vs using battlestations is effectively the same.*

*Rerolls are actually slightly better because they give a 1/8 chance for a CRIT vs battlestations convert to HITS, but for overall DAMAGE both are the same.

That build doesn't say where the Flagship is, but I only get 5,4,4 no matter what ship is the Flag. Personally I'd put it on the Ch'tang to give it just a bit more survivability while cloaked. I don't trust 3 hull cloaked ships to survive a 5 or 6 die attack.

The Ch'tang reroll blanks means it's rerolling 1 die/turn. So that's probably 3 damage.

Nu'daq converts one battlestations & one blank. Assuming the rolls are perfectly average, that's 4 damage from 4 dice! Awesome!

Worf also rerolls a blank if he wants to. Personally, I wouldn't since if it came up a battlestations after that roll it's lost. Assuming Worf rolls 2 damage, 1 bs, 1 blank. After Flag conversion that 3 damage.

Total damage: 10 on average. Yes, this build has a better chance of getting 13 damage out of 13 attacks than a Vor'cha, Vor'cha, Negh'var build would, but I don't know how much.

I wonder how this would work. 16 dice, lots of HULL so it will survive a couple of attacks even while cloaked, and the blank convert on 2 of the ships.
Vor'cha Class (26)
Klingon Captain (0)
Total (26)

Vor'cha Class (26)
Klingon Captain (0)
Total (26)

Negh'var Class (28)
Flagship: Klingon (10)
Klingon Captain (0)
Total (38)

Fleet total: 90

Generated by Space Dock for Mac
http://spacedockapp.org
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Jason Jackowski
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davedujour: That last Klingon Fleet looks good to me. One thing to consider is this is a difficult fleet to interfere with. Nothing to assimilate, use O'Brien on, etc. You might consider trading in that Negh'Var for another Vorcha to put Clark Terell or Krell on as a Captain. Not sure about that trade-off (this assumes you have that many Vorchas)

Could also switch out that Negh'Var for the Koraga. Plus one defense to cloak and you can cloak as a free action each turn.
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