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Subject: Restart on Verghn's Grove rss

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Francis K. Lalumiere
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The upper right-hand corner says that it's treated as two lanes during restarts. Exactly what does this mean?

Obviously, if the pack spills over that portion of the track during a restart, the cars occupy two lanes and not one. But then what? We assumed that it stays as two lanes until the whole pack has cleared that area, but I'd like an official confirmation.

Likewise, if a restart happens when the leader occupies the very last space before that special area (and assuming he doesn't pit), we played it that it's just one lane and not two. But frankly, we weren't sure.
 
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Mitchell Land
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weishaupt wrote:
The upper right-hand corner says that it's treated as two lanes during restarts. Exactly what does this mean?

Obviously, if the pack spills over that portion of the track during a restart, the cars occupy two lanes and not one. But then what? We assumed that it stays as two lanes until the whole pack has cleared that area, but I'd like an official confirmation.

Likewise, if a restart happens when the leader occupies the very last space before that special area (and assuming he doesn't pit), we played it that it's just one lane and not two. But frankly, we weren't sure.


Not official, but that's how we play.
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Steve Bishop
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Same discussion here...

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/16365264#16365264

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Agent J
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weishaupt wrote:
The upper right-hand corner says that it's treated as two lanes during restarts. Exactly what does this mean?

Obviously, if the pack spills over that portion of the track during a restart, the cars occupy two lanes and not one. But then what? We assumed that it stays as two lanes until the whole pack has cleared that area, but I'd like an official confirmation.

Likewise, if a restart happens when the leader occupies the very last space before that special area (and assuming he doesn't pit), we played it that it's just one lane and not two. But frankly, we weren't sure.


... what does it matter if he pits or not?
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Jeff Horger
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weishaupt wrote:
The upper right-hand corner says that it's treated as two lanes during restarts. Exactly what does this mean?

Obviously, if the pack spills over that portion of the track during a restart, the cars occupy two lanes and not one. But then what? We assumed that it stays as two lanes until the whole pack has cleared that area, but I'd like an official confirmation.

Likewise, if a restart happens when the leader occupies the very last space before that special area (and assuming he doesn't pit), we played it that it's just one lane and not two. But frankly, we weren't sure.


Verghn's Grove Track: If the single lane areas was used for a restart, count the spaces as double for the entire next turn. After that it reverts to single. If 2 cars are side-by side after that, both must be chosen to be a part of a draft, lead or pursuit line and are deposited into the matching lane after the single section.
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Steve Bishop
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Jeff Horger wrote:

Verghn's Grove Track: If the single lane areas was used for a restart, count the spaces as double for the entire next turn. After that it reverts to single. If 2 cars are side-by side after that, both must be chosen to be a part of a draft, lead or pursuit line and are deposited into the matching lane after the single section.


I am sure that this situation won’t come up very often but I think this ruling may cause more problems than it solves.

I think you might just have been better saying that, in this section of the track, if a sector contained two cars (at any time, but obviously could only have occurred after a Yellow flag restart) then that sector is two lanes. Once the sector no longer has two cars it reverts to one lane.

You don’t then need any special rules as you just treat each sector as a diverging or converging lane as with corners. In a draft line that contains one of these sectors with two cars then it is up to the active player as normal to decide which to include.

Under your ruling you will be moving two cars side by side and depositing them in the two lane section.
Does the car that is now no longer in the draft line still move forward if there are movement points left?
If it is Draft or Pursuit movement does it pick up cars further down the track so you now have two draft lines in effect?
What if the exit sector is fully occupied or the sectors between have two cars in them?

Also by allowing the sectors to count as two spaces for the entire turn you could then be perpetuating the situation by allowing cars at the rear to now move into what is supposed to be a single lane sector and double up.

Difficult situation I know and only applies to one track but I think it’s best to stick to the base rules if you can.

Loving the game by the way
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Francis K. Lalumiere
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Jythier wrote:
weishaupt wrote:
The upper right-hand corner says that it's treated as two lanes during restarts. Exactly what does this mean?

Obviously, if the pack spills over that portion of the track during a restart, the cars occupy two lanes and not one. But then what? We assumed that it stays as two lanes until the whole pack has cleared that area, but I'd like an official confirmation.

Likewise, if a restart happens when the leader occupies the very last space before that special area (and assuming he doesn't pit), we played it that it's just one lane and not two. But frankly, we weren't sure.


... what does it matter if he pits or not?

If the leader pits, the new leader might not be in the special lane, rendering the point moot.
 
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weishaupt wrote:
Jythier wrote:
weishaupt wrote:
The upper right-hand corner says that it's treated as two lanes during restarts. Exactly what does this mean?

Obviously, if the pack spills over that portion of the track during a restart, the cars occupy two lanes and not one. But then what? We assumed that it stays as two lanes until the whole pack has cleared that area, but I'd like an official confirmation.

Likewise, if a restart happens when the leader occupies the very last space before that special area (and assuming he doesn't pit), we played it that it's just one lane and not two. But frankly, we weren't sure.


... what does it matter if he pits or not?

If the leader pits, the new leader might not be in the special lane, rendering the point moot.


But it's a restart. You line them up where the leader is... you don't move back for pitting.
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Francis K. Lalumiere
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Jythier wrote:
weishaupt wrote:
Jythier wrote:
weishaupt wrote:
The upper right-hand corner says that it's treated as two lanes during restarts. Exactly what does this mean?

Obviously, if the pack spills over that portion of the track during a restart, the cars occupy two lanes and not one. But then what? We assumed that it stays as two lanes until the whole pack has cleared that area, but I'd like an official confirmation.

Likewise, if a restart happens when the leader occupies the very last space before that special area (and assuming he doesn't pit), we played it that it's just one lane and not two. But frankly, we weren't sure.


... what does it matter if he pits or not?

If the leader pits, the new leader might not be in the special lane, rendering the point moot.


But it's a restart. You line them up where the leader is... you don't move back for pitting.

If the leader pits, he's not the leader anymore. He'll rejoin the pack after all the cars on the track (i.e. not in the pits) have reformed behind the new leader.

Or have I been playing this completely wrong?
blush
 
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Totally wrong.

You are actually supposed to line them up before pit stops - this is mostly a cosmetic step, but in this case it illustrates the rule - they are lined up prior to the pit stops. Then you do pits, then you line all the cars up in the original places they were lined up, just in a different order.

In practice, I leave the cars where they are (maybe moving up a sector in order to put a car back on the lead lap, etc) and then do pit stops, then line up the 'field on the track' and then the 'field in the pits'.

But regardless, the sector for the restart is the sector that the 'lead car' was in after the event had been resolved.
 
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Jythier wrote:
Totally wrong.

You are actually supposed to line them up before pit stops - this is mostly a cosmetic step, but in this case it illustrates the rule - they are lined up prior to the pit stops. Then you do pits, then you line all the cars up in the original places they were lined up, just in a different order.

In practice, I leave the cars where they are (maybe moving up a sector in order to put a car back on the lead lap, etc) and then do pit stops, then line up the 'field on the track' and then the 'field in the pits'.

But regardless, the sector for the restart is the sector that the 'lead car' was in after the event had been resolved.


We do what Jay said "in practice" to. The restart row will be where ever the lead car is at the conclusion of the event. We then determine who pits, then line cars up. It's faster, as you aren't shuffling the cars twice. Note--I thought that's how it is in the rules, but I haven't looked to confirm.
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Nope. Do event, it has a yellow, line up the cars for the caution, decide and execute pit stops, adjust the cars to the new order which is what it was with the cars who pit in the back. (and/or any after caution relineup event)
 
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So if all the cars Pit except one, does the one who does not Pit become the Leader next turn?
 
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Kevin Rohrer wrote:
So if all the cars Pit except one, does the one who does not Pit become the Leader next turn?
yes. In fact, it moves up right away and takes that lead spot and all the others fall behind in the order they were.
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Jythier wrote:
Totally wrong.

Jay, you're full of [glances nervously at rulebook] -- damn, you're right!

We performed the pit first and then reformed the pack. Probably because they're explained in that order in the rules... (Two in our group read the rules, and both of of us got this wrong.)

So this means that if a few cars do pit under a yellow flag, the race will restart with gaps in the pack. That'll change a few things.
 
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weishaupt wrote:
Jythier wrote:
Totally wrong.

Jay, you're full of [glances nervously at rulebook] -- damn, you're right!

We performed the pit first and then reformed the pack. Probably because they're explained in that order in the rules... (Two in our group read the rules, and both of of us got this wrong.)

So this means that if a few cars do pit under a yellow flag, the race will restart with gaps in the pack. That'll change a few things.


No gaps. You reform after pits too!
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Francis K. Lalumiere
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I see what you're saying in the illustrated example under 9.6, but where do the rules state that *all* cars reform after a yellow-flag pit stop?
9.6.5 talks about the cars tha pitted, but there's no mention of moving up the cars that remained on the track.
 
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weishaupt wrote:
I see what you're saying in the illustrated example under 9.6, but where do the rules state that *all* cars reform after a yellow-flag pit stop?
9.6.5 talks about the cars tha pitted, but there's no mention of moving up the cars that remained on the track.


9.6.2. Using on-track positions, place all the other cars in the same manner as was used during setup. Thus, the second place car is put in the outside lane, the third place car is placed behind the leader, etc. All cars with a “Lapped Car” marker are lined up at the end of the pack in their respective order.

I don't really see any confusion in the rule, but I also am a NASCAR fan, and that knowledge helps lead you to the intent of the rules.

In a NASCAR race, when there's a yellow, the cars line back up. Cars may pit, and this effectively moves them behind cars that don't pit. (Typically everyone pits, and it's a race to see who can do their pit stop faster--Jeff has opted not to do this, and was wise for it...that would have been painful), but sometimes, depending on situation, some cars won't pit, and so they move up in the pack.

To streamline the process, and to include the house rule we use for determining pit stops (we do not determine who pits by team, but by car based on the car's track position), here's how we do it:

1. Yellow Flag came out, event resolved, so check for who is pitting.
2. In running order, determine which cars are pitting, and move them to the apron.
3. Perform Pits (remove temp markers)
4. The first car that remains on the track is the new leader. move him to the inside restart lane in the sector he is in (technically, I think, if the leader pitted, we slide the new leader into the old leader's sector--I honestly think you can play it either way, just be consistent).
5. Now re-align the field, placing them in the same way you did to start the race (so, two columns) with the second place car (the next car on the track) being placed next to the leader, the third place car going behind the leader, etc.
6. After all cars that were still on the track are placed, now cars that were on the apron are placed, in the same manner (that being, the same as the starting grid).

When you're done, all cars still in the race are lined up in the same way they were to start the race, just in a different place on the track (unless, of course, the leader was at the start/finish line, then they're lined up exactly like the startup).

Hope that helps. If not, I can try to make a video and post it. Just let me know!
 
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Good catch on the rules proper not stating it. But the example's right there and clear that those cars did move up, which makes sense with the theme.
 
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Jythier wrote:
Good catch on the rules proper not stating it. But the example's right there and clear that those cars did move up, which makes sense with the theme.

Sure. But I go to the examples when I feel that something's not clear -- in this case, I had skipped it.
 
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weishaupt wrote:
Jythier wrote:
Good catch on the rules proper not stating it. But the example's right there and clear that those cars did move up, which makes sense with the theme.

Sure. But I go to the examples when I feel that something's not clear -- in this case, I had skipped it.


Yeah, it looks like an error - it should be specified in the non-example rules too.
 
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trianglemoon wrote:
weishaupt wrote:
I see what you're saying in the illustrated example under 9.6, but where do the rules state that *all* cars reform after a yellow-flag pit stop?
9.6.5 talks about the cars tha pitted, but there's no mention of moving up the cars that remained on the track.


9.6.2. Using on-track positions, place all the other cars in the same manner as was used during setup. Thus, the second place car is put in the outside lane, the third place car is placed behind the leader, etc. All cars with a “Lapped Car” marker are lined up at the end of the pack in their respective order.

Yes, but this step happens before the pit stop (which takes place under 9.6.5). Nothing after that says that the cars reform a second time after the pit stops are complete.

Quote:

I don't really see any confusion in the rule, but I also am a NASCAR fan, and that knowledge helps lead you to the intent of the rules.

Yeah, I would assume so.
I know next to nothing about NASCAR, so I didn't know what the song was supposed to sound like before I read it.
(Other musicians out there will know exactly what I'm talking about...)

Quote:

To streamline the process, and to include the house rule we use for determining pit stops (we do not determine who pits by team, but by car based on the car's track position), here's how we do it:

We've also adopted that house rule. I wonder why it's not listed as an optional rule in the game.

Quote:

1. Yellow Flag came out, event resolved, so check for who is pitting.
2. In running order, determine which cars are pitting, and move them to the apron.
3. Perform Pits (remove temp markers)
4. The first car that remains on the track is the new leader. move him to the inside restart lane in the sector he is in (technically, I think, if the leader pitted, we slide the new leader into the old leader's sector--I honestly think you can play it either way, just be consistent).
5. Now re-align the field, placing them in the same way you did to start the race (so, two columns) with the second place car (the next car on the track) being placed next to the leader, the third place car going behind the leader, etc.
6. After all cars that were still on the track are placed, now cars that were on the apron are placed, in the same manner (that being, the same as the starting grid).

When you're done, all cars still in the race are lined up in the same way they were to start the race, just in a different place on the track (unless, of course, the leader was at the start/finish line, then they're lined up exactly like the startup).

Hope that helps. If not, I can try to make a video and post it. Just let me know!

Thanks a lot for the detailed rundown.
But if I go by the rules, there seems to be a "first pack realignment" that you'd need to insert in 1.5. THEN the cars pit.

Or am I wrong again?
(Damn, it's supposed to be a simple game...)
 
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Jythier wrote:
weishaupt wrote:
Jythier wrote:
Good catch on the rules proper not stating it. But the example's right there and clear that those cars did move up, which makes sense with the theme.

Sure. But I go to the examples when I feel that something's not clear -- in this case, I had skipped it.


Yeah, it looks like an error - it should be specified in the non-example rules too.

Mistakes I'm okay with. But sometimes I happen upon a rulebook where entire rules were purposefully laid out in examples. I hate that with a passion.
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Quote:
Thanks a lot for the detailed rundown.
But if I go by the rules, there seems to be a "first pack realignment" that you'd need to insert in 1.5. THEN the cars pit.

Or am I wrong again?
(Damn, it's supposed to be a simple game...)



I see what you are saying, and you are correct. I believe this rule was re-written a few times, and it looks like that step (re-compressing the field, so to speak) got missed.

At one point, I believe the rules worked in the manner I outlined, so there was no need to "realign" the field, because you had already removed the pitting cars. So, the lining up happened at the end.
 
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trianglemoon wrote:
Quote:
Thanks a lot for the detailed rundown.
But if I go by the rules, there seems to be a "first pack realignment" that you'd need to insert in 1.5. THEN the cars pit.

Or am I wrong again?
(Damn, it's supposed to be a simple game...)



I see what you are saying, and you are correct. I believe this rule was re-written a few times, and it looks like that step (re-compressing the field, so to speak) got missed.

At one point, I believe the rules worked in the manner I outlined, so there was no need to "realign" the field, because you had already removed the pitting cars. So, the lining up happened at the end.

That's how we played it at first. Now I have to go back to each player in my group and go, "you know, that yellow flag..."
 
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