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Subject: Revealing your hand of cards : duration rss

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Wim D
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Who determines how long a hand of cards should be revealed?

The "Elder Things"-faction contains a few cards that require the other players to reveal their hand of cards to do something with the madness cards in it (count them, discard them, check for their presence, ..).
Power of madness: All other players reveal their hands, discard all madness cards and then shuffles their discard pile into their deck.
The price of power: Special: before a base scores, all other players with minions there reveal their hand. One of your minions there has +2 power for each madness card revealed.
Unfathomable goals: All other players reveal his or her hands. Each player who reveals a madness card must destroy one of their minions.


Likewise, the spies have The spy who ditched me: all other players must discard a minion or reveal their hand to show they have no minion.


Is it enough to just reveal your hand long enough to check what is required for the action to continue (for example: count the madness cards for the price of power), or do you have to give everyone at the table the chance to examine each card in your hand carefully, and checking the possible combinations with all the other cards in your hand and your discard pile?

A discussion arose about this subject at our gaming table, because one player was taking an extremely long time to examine 3 different hands of each more than 7 cards. Other players wanted to continue playing, but the one player claimed the right to look at the cards for as long as he needed (he was trying to memorise all the cards in all hands, and checking if he didn't forget any).

Was he right to claim the right to look for as long as he wanted, or were the other players right to say that what was needed to be determined by the reveal was already determined for a long time?
 
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J
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quit and nuts wrote:
Who determines how long a hand of cards should be revealed?

Is it enough to just reveal your hand long enough to check what is required for the action to continue (for example: count the madness cards for the price of power), or do you have to give everyone at the table the chance to examine each card in your hand carefully, and checking the possible combinations with all the other cards in your hand and your discard pile?


This is something I see asked a lot in various game forums such as dominion. Instances where you are asked to show your hand when the intent is to make sure you are doing everything you are suppose to but ultimately leads to the ability for your opponents to see all your capabilities.

Short answer is he is right.

As it stands revealing your hand is part of the card text and as such all players have the right to see and know every single card in your hand and what it does even if it's not a madness card and it is not your right to try to reveal your hand in such a way that they cannot tell what you have in your hand. For instance, I know the game really well. If you had to flash your hand at me and I saw it for only a few seconds I would instantly be able to see and analyze most of your moves and capabilities. Would it really be fair to a new player who hasn't had the chance to previously read the cards to not give him the time to do the same (if he wants it)?

Quote:
A discussion arose about this subject at our gaming table, because one player was taking an extremely long time to examine 3 different hands of each more than 7 cards. Other players wanted to continue playing, but the one player claimed the right to look at the cards for as long as he needed (he was trying to memorise all the cards in all hands, and checking if he didn't forget any).

Was he right to claim the right to look for as long as he wanted, or were the other players right to say that what was needed to be determined by the reveal was already determined for a long time?


There is no explicit time limit on how long or how short you must/can show your hand for and since revealing your hand is part of the card text he is correct that it is his right to to see and know what your other cards are (in fact it's everyone's right). If he wants to delay the game to do this than it is little different from someone who simply is taking a very long time to take his turn. It might annoy his opponents and they might be vocal about it but there's no rule against it and and without previously agreeing on a time limit to turns you cannot force him to take it.

This is more of a person issue than a game rule issue. If he is a decent person he should know that delaying the game for a unreasonable amount of time will not make his opponents happy and he should be aware of his own ability to quickly read, analyze and memorize the cards in your hands. If he cannot do it in a reasonable amount of time his conscience should be telling him to not be forcing you guys to wait an unreasonable amount of time for him to do it. However if it doesn't bother him that he is making his friends unhappy there isn't a rule in this game that will force him to comply.
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Wim D
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- Are players allowed to take notes on a scrip sheet to write down what they see?
- Are other players allowed to hold my cards in their hands to read them properly? (me showing something technically means I'm still holding it, right?)
- There is no time period set for how long one must reveal. Why is it up to the person looking to say when it is enough, and not to the person showing? Or to the group to have an agreement on?


What actually happened: the other person was holding my cards to read and memorise all of them (after he already had taken a look at the 2 other players' cards). At a certain point, after the 2 other players already vented that he was taking too long with my cards and was stalling the game, I took my cards back and said it was enough. He said: "hey, you have to reveal your cards to me, so I can look at them.", to which I replied: "I had to reveal my cards to you, and so I did. Now let's continue the game."

I still stick to that: i had to reveal the cards, and so I did. I revealed them for enough time to read the text on all of them (not like I just flashed them). I had the feeling like I did what his card required me to do.
 
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Donny Behne
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Ugh, how miserable. gulp

This sounds like an issue with one player. He's prioritizing winning over everyone having fun and that's in direct violation of the Boardgamers Social Contract! Writing the cards down won't help him - he still doesn't know what they do. Players do this in Magic The Gathering tournaments but it's usually abbreviated and they know what it is by name. I'd say allowing him to hold them is acceptable.

For playing with this guy, I would recommend that, before the game, the table agrees on a time limit for the reveal effect. Make it 30 seconds. If everyone can't agree, then play something different. Memorizing every card and holding up the game for many minutes is contrary to the spirit of the game itself.

(Just as a warning, this may be indicative of other behaviors that can also suck the fun out of a game, beware when playing with this person again!)
 
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Wim D
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He didn't write anything down; i just added that question to see what the answer would be.

He IS a very competitive magic player. His will to do everything he can to win (what makes playing games fun for him) indeed occasionally hampers the fun for the rest of the group.

However, i think his addition to the group has been good for both the group and him. The other members of the group got better at playing well to win, while he learned about having fun playing, not winning.

I think everyone making an effort to accept the others is very much in the "boardgaming code of conduct".
 
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Simon Tan
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quit and nuts wrote:
Who determines how long a hand of cards should be revealed?

The "Elder Things"-faction contains a few cards that require the other players to reveal their hand of cards to do something with the madness cards in it (count them, discard them, check for their presence, ..).
Power of madness: All other players reveal their hands, discard all madness cards and then shuffles their discard pile into their deck.
The price of power: Special: before a base scores, all other players with minions there reveal their hand. One of your minions there has +2 power for each madness card revealed.
Unfathomable goals: All other players reveal his or her hands. Each player who reveals a madness card must destroy one of their minions.


Likewise, the spies have The spy who ditched me: all other players must discard a minion or reveal their hand to show they have no minion.


Is it enough to just reveal your hand long enough to check what is required for the action to continue (for example: count the madness cards for the price of power), or do you have to give everyone at the table the chance to examine each card in your hand carefully, and checking the possible combinations with all the other cards in your hand and your discard pile?

A discussion arose about this subject at our gaming table, because one player was taking an extremely long time to examine 3 different hands of each more than 7 cards. Other players wanted to continue playing, but the one player claimed the right to look at the cards for as long as he needed (he was trying to memorise all the cards in all hands, and checking if he didn't forget any).

Was he right to claim the right to look for as long as he wanted, or were the other players right to say that what was needed to be determined by the reveal was already determined for a long time?


If the cards were very simple, then it shouldn't take very long to remember what they do. As it stands, there are admittedly very wordy cards (looking at you, Ninja Acolyte) that will be hard to understand at first glance, especially if it is the player's first time around.

This is really a game group etiquette question, but if this were an organized tournament, it would hypothetically be handled as follows:

- Player can write notes during the game, but not read notes made before a game at this time.
- Player can ask a judge the wording of a card and what does it do, but the judge will not answer strategy questions outside of "yes," "no," or "what you're planning is going to be illegal."
- Player will get a "slow play" or "stalling" warning, and the appropriate penalties, if the judge decides that he or she is doing so.

Within your game group, a suggestion for this would be to let the guy write down the names of the cards that he saw after about a minute of looking. If these cards are only revealed to him, he cannot show this list to other players. He can then ask you to show [name of card] to him so he can try to understand the card, but this privilege ends when at least one card from your hand is put back into your deck. You can choose to show him a duplicate copy that is in your discard pile or in play (in which case, you should probably smack the player on the side of the head) instead of that in your hand. Also, if the player is no longer a novice at the game, this privilege no longer applies.

One day, someone might make a wiki for all the Smash Up cards, and perhaps the related rulings to go with them. The cards could just be in text form instead of pics or scans if that is an issue with AEG...
 
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Jon Gameson
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Unfortunately, there's no "official ruling" in the book for this...

However, here I don't think the purpose of the reveal mechanics is for the playing player to memorise your hand. The purpose, in my mind, is to determine certain info (in the 2 cards given, to show there are the correct number of minions, or madness cards etc.)

The way we play is that you give your hand to the revealing player, so only they see, and they can look at it and read then cards, but not for a ridiculously long time (we've not had a situation where we've had to define what the upper limit of this would be).

I don't think we'll ever get to a "correct" answer for this...

Hope this helped never-the-less
 
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This seems like... unsportsmanlike behavior. I understand using cards to full potential but slowing down the game in this kind of way seems like it's against the spirit of the game.
 
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Alfred Spangler
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There's the rule of law answer, which is, yes, they have the right to look as long as they want.

Then there's the good sportsmanship answer, which is, dude, don't study my cards like you're the rebel alliance looking for design flaws in the death star.

My advice: Let Look Cardpeeker gaze as long as he wants THEN DON'T PLAY WITH HIM AGAIN.
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Wim D
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mynameistopher wrote:
There's the rule of law answer, which is, yes, they have the right to look as long as they want.

Then there's the good sportsmanship answer, which is, dude, don't study my cards like you're the rebel alliance looking for design flaws in the death star.

My advice: Let Look Cardpeeker gaze as long as he wants THEN DON'T PLAY WITH HIM AGAIN.


I'd rather play with him again, yet limit his gazing. (I hoped to get a way to do so by asking this question - apparently not)
He's a good player, who always gives a real strategic challenge when he's on the opposing team.
 
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Seadhna Capetown
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There's been a similar issue with one of my smash up mates:
Say, Scrap Diving instructs to put an action from the discard pile into the hand, yet doesn't say you have to show it to everyone. Same thing with Scry or Time Raider. So my buddy has been playing in an unfriendly fashion once he started losing, not showing the card to anyone.
Sadly, the rules don't cover this class of situation.
 
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J
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seadhna wrote:
There's been a similar issue with one of my smash up mates:
Say, Scrap Diving instructs to put an action from the discard pile into the hand, yet doesn't say you have to show it to everyone. Same thing with Scry or Time Raider. So my buddy has been playing in an unfriendly fashion once he started losing, not showing the card to anyone.
Sadly, the rules don't cover this class of situation.


Actually the rules do cover it albeit indirectly. Under Void Where Prohibited it says:

Quote:
Anyone may look through any discard pile at any
time. And yes, zombie fans, they will be rifling
through yours all the time if they’re playing smart
to keep track of what you have. . . .


Meaning that if he plays Scrap Diving he cannot hide his discard pile from you guys as he takes the action card out of it. That's why cards that explicitly tell you to take action/minion cards out of your discard pile into hand never say that you have to reveal the card unlike cards like Portal, Neophyte, Budding or the like that gets action/minion cards from your deck (Which are not public knowledge). Cards in your discard are 100% public knowledge so he is not allowed to go out of his way to try and hide which card he is taking out of it when he is instructed to or more specifically if he still insists he's allowed to, you are allowed to look through his entire discard pile both before and after he plays Scrap Diving to figure out which card is missing and hopefully he gets the message and just shows you to save time.

Oh and Scry takes the card out of your deck, not your discard pile and sure enough very explicitly says you have to show it to all the players.
 
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Jon Gameson
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Yep, as J said, there's no way to stop someone from checking your discard pile...always worth a look, whether they've just taken something from it, or put something in it from the unknown.

Since this is already common knowledge (if you decide to look), the cards don't force the player to reveal them.

 
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