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Subject: Determining the number of dice an enemy unit uses during a Leader Escape roll rss

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Todd Rewoldt
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Apologies if this is addressed on these forums - I did a quick search on "Leader Escape" in the rules forums and did not find such thread nor post. Recently been playing this game again, and some situations have arisen for which I wasn't sure of the proper ruling:

The rules state: "The attacking unit uses its normal number of melee combat dice. The leader does not benefit from terrain in the hex." No explicit mention is made of bonuses from orders, but I assume since terrain is the only modifier mentioned as not influencing, other modifiers would still influence (Command Card orders such as Leadership, Bombard, etc.) Is that a correct assumption?

Specific Example: if a cavalry unit ordered by Cavalry Charge does a Leader Escape check, would it roll at +1d (+2d if Guard, etc.), is that in this instance considered its "normal number of combat dice"?
 
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Todd Rewoldt
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Thanks for the response, Steve - and yes, it is the formerEDIT: nope, it is neither - a lone leader escaping through an enemy unit after surviving the Leader Check, but having to evade through an enemy unit. For the Leader Escape check roll, would the bonus from a Command Card carry through?

Another question that came up was for a unit in square, 1d or the "unsquared" amount during a Leader Escape roll?
 
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Steve Duke
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If a square attacks a lone leader in melee, 1 die.
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Todd Rewoldt
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Sorry, slow in my editing - but it is good to have those cases confirmed as well
 
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Michael Dippel
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I have already sent a request to Richard, to confirm different situations,

"How many dice are rolled by a Leader Escape (not Leadercheck), if a Leader retreats through an enemy

1.) 4-Block INF into square...
2.) 3-Block LC, which is on a town hex....

answers will following soon.
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Quote:
Leader Escape Procedure: Move the leader onto the enemy hex and allow the enemy unit in the hex to battle the leader. The attacking unit uses its normal number of melee combat dice. The leader does not benefit from terrain in the hex. One or more saber symbols rolled will score a hit and eliminate the leader, even from a unit that normally does not score a hit on a saber roll in melee combat. The opponent gains one Victory Banner when the leader is eliminated.


I've always understood that the "normal number of melee dice" for Leader Escape situations is based on the type and strength of the unit and no more. Basically, follow the National Reference Charts to calculate base melee dice for the unit the Leader is Escaping through.

There are three examples that follow the rule to show how it is resolved. The second example specifically mentions that the unit being passed through is Heavy Cavalry with 3 blocks and that the number of dice rolled will be 4 (3 blocks +1 for Heavy Cavalry). None of the examples factor terrain, cards, nor formation.

I know that terrain factors were specifically excluded. I agree, noting that cards and formation should also be excluded from the calculation would make the rule clearer—if that is what is meant.
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Michael Dippel
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Just received the official answers from Richard.
FAQ update on ccnapoleonics.net follows asap.

Q. A Leader escapes through an enemy (3Block) Heavy Cavalry, which is in a town hex. How many dice the HC rolls to hit the leader?


A. 4 dice

Per the Leader Escape Procedure Rules: Move the leader onto the enemy hex and allow the enemy unit in the hex to battle the leader. The attacking unit uses its normal number of melee combat dice. In this case Heavy Cavalry will roll 4 dice. The leader does not benefit from terrain in the hex.


Q. If a leader escapes through an enemy Infantry unit in square formation, how many dice rolls this infantry unit roll to hit the leader.

A. 1 die


Per the Leader Escape Procedure Rules: Move the leader onto the enemy hex and allow the enemy unit in the hex to battle the leader. The attacking unit uses its normal number of melee combat dice. In this case 1 die, because one die is the number of dice an infantry unit in square rolls in melee.

Short summary: By a leader escape roll, no Terrain- and Command Cards rules apply.
Only own skills of an unit or special formation limits (Square for example) can increase or decrease the number of battledice.
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LOL! I'm wrong again!

Good to know that formations and card bonuses (but not terrain) come under the heading of calculating "normal" melee dice.

Three examples in the book and no reference to cards or formations.

Good catch, Todd! laugh

I should add:

One of the reasons I like the C&C series of games is that a lot of fussy detail is subsumed into plausible abstractions. For example, the rules for forming square are very simple: you always make the change, but you sacrifice flexibility.

In the past, when deciding what was "normal" melee dice in these situations, I would look at the rule and follow the example. Since, with Leader Escape, none of the three examples featured card play or formation considerations, I figured that they didn't apply. And it didn't (in my opinion) conflict with a straight reading of the rule.

After all, is an infantry unit "normally" in square? Is a cavalry unit "normally" operating under a Cavalry Charge card? Whatever else, a unit is always standing on some piece of terrain (even if it's Clear), but that's not applied.

I can understand the 1 die for infantry in square. Mostly. Still (going back to the plausible abstraction that I enjoy so much about a game that can be played in an hour or so) an infantry unit in square, while immobile on the board, is indisputably in possession and control of the space within and immediately around it, i.e.; the hex. And if an enemy leader must run the gauntlet of going through or immediately around an enemy square to make a break, I would sooner bet that most of the troops would normally be aware of the situation rather than the reverse. I would have thought they would get their full allotment of dice (number blocks plus special chacteristics when conducting melee) for a Leader Escape.

I understand that this will mostly affect "edge cases." But the rule was simpler and easier to remember before. And just as plausible.
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Todd Rewoldt
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Thanks, for chiming in, Michael and Brady.

I may have it wrong for Ancients, but I play that that the dice value is whatever the unit would roll out of that hex at that particular moment (e.g. a Medium infantry in a forest hex that had been ordered by I Am Spartacus would roll 3d), but knew that in Napoleonics there was the specific reference to terrain not impacting the roll (which makes sense from a game mechanic point of view, since the roll really doesn't go into nor out of that hex...) but no mention of any other modifiers, other than the not rigorously defined "normally".

As always, for me, the importance is to play the game such that everyone participating knows the rules, followed closely by playing the game the way the designer intended (or, the way the production company intended - preferrably those being one and the same ).

EDIT: huh, same wording in Ancients - "Move the leader onto one of the enemy hexes. Allow the enemy unit in the hex to battle the leader. The attacking unit uses its normal number of Close Combat dice. The leader does not benefit from terrain." Been playing that incorrectly...
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Todd Rewoldt
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Bayernkini wrote:

Short summary: By a leader escape roll, no Terrain- and Command Cards rules apply.
Only own skills of an unit or special formation limits (Square for example) can increase or decrease the number of battledice.


Michael, did you mean that Command Card rules do or do not apply? To me it still isn't clear if that is the case, and the fact that an infantry unit in square only rolls 1d, would lead me to believe that card modifiers would be involved in the Leader Escape check.
 
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Michael Dippel
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- Command Cards don´t Count
- Terrain don´t Count
- Movements of the unit don´t Count.

Imagine, the unit which roll for an leader escape,
stand on a open ground hex and battle to another open ground hex.

No Card rules, no Terrain rules!

Only Formation rules, as a "Square" is, apply (therefore a square INF rolls one die),
and own skills of Units, so a Grenadier (not in square) or Heavy CAV would add +1, for example.

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Steve Duke
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I am sure it is good to know the answer although it is difficult for me to imagine many instances of this EVER occurring to worry about, that is, playing of a command card and whether that influences the dice.

E.g. My leader stacked with unit is behind your lines--and I have to be behind you in order to try and escape through you--when the unit loses its last block by your artillery that plays a bombard card.

The leader survives his 1 die loss check and now must escape through your artillery that just played the bombard card.

Do you roll the normal artillery dice or do you add in dice for bombard? Good question. Answered above as 'no', just the normal artillery dice.

But a better question is, what the hell am I doing behind your lines like that?
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Quote:
Thanks, for chiming in, Michael and Brady.


You're welcome, Todd. Your question was a good one. I thought yours was also a simple one, but that was not the case.

I see Michael has clarified the earlier answer to say that Command Card play is not a consideration in the calculation of what a unit is considered to normally roll. Correct?

So I've learned that we need to remember that if a Leader is Escaping through an enemy infantry unit that is in square, it will only roll one die and National Characteristics can't boost the number due to the limitations on infantry units conducting Melee while in square.
 
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Todd Rewoldt
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sduke wrote:
I am sure it is good to know the answer although it is difficult for me to imagine many instances of this EVER occurring to worry about, that is, playing of a command card and whether that influences the dice.


The most frequent occurrence is with Cavalry Charge (as was the instance that prompted this thread - by the way, Nicolas, if you are reading this, so far it seems your victory is tainted ). Bombard was the most extreme case I could think of, but if one plays enough games, it could happen - likely in a case where a leader attached cavalry unit had overextended in hopes of victory, but didn't get the requisite cooperation from the dice... Elan is also a card where this could happen with some degree of frequency, but potential is there for any of the cards.

Michael, not harping on this, but aside from you saying it doesn't, I don't see any of the examples or the comments from Richard Borg stating that the command cards do not influence the Leader Escape roll. Just trying to be complete - for me, one interpretation is not better than the other.
 
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Michael Dippel
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Quote:
Michael, not harping on this, but aside from you saying it doesn't, I don't see any of the examples or the comments from Richard Borg stating that the command cards do not influence the Leader Escape roll. Just trying to be complete - for me, one interpretation is not better than the other.


Todd, you can be sure, that all FAQ, we publish on

http://www.ccnapoleonics.net/Rules/FAQs/leaders.html

are the official words from Richard, also if we (Alessandro or me) don´t write ALL words of our emails with Richard exact here or on ccnapo.net, and on the FAQ ist "only" a short Summary and a "few examples"
otherwise it could happen, that we have soon a FAQ with a scope,
as the FAQ of MM44 is in meanwhile

And the notes in the rulebook "The
attacking unit uses its normal number of melee combat dice."
meant already, that a command Card don´t apply, but to clarify this words also, i wrote the right words here and into the FAQ.

PS: I am sure, the same rules apply in CCA and the answer would be the same as here, if anybody would send an official request about Leader Escape on CCA
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Todd Rewoldt
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Exactly - and there is nothing speaking directly to how a Command Card such as Elan would impact the dice value of the Leader Escape roll. From reading the rules, the way I would interpret it is, the unit performing the roll rolls whatever it normally would in the situation, without taking into account terrain (which makes sense from a game mechanic point of view, as it is neither into nor out of the hex). A unit ordered by Elan would normally battle at +1, just as a unit in square would normally battle at 1d.
 
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Todd, I almost posted the following question from the Ancients FAQ yesterday, when you drew a comparison to the Leader Escape rules in the Ancients game:

Quote:
Elephants

Q. On page 11 second printing second bullet - When an elephant Battles Back after being attacked in Close Combat it will roll the same number of dice as the unit which made the attack on the elephant unit. It sounds like the elephant unit battling back would get the bonus. Is that correct?

A. The section just above reads - In Close Combat, an elephant unit will roll the same number of battle dice as the unit it is attacking would normally roll against the elephant. Key word here is normally. Bonus dice a unit rolls against the elephant are not consider the units normal attack dice so the elephant unit would not roll more dice than the attackers normal dice.


I remember posing the question to Richard long ago. Though not detailed (and the grammar overall needs help, too), an Elephant was battling back against a Roman Heavy Infantry unit that was ordered under play of "I Am Spartacus!" "Normal" dice is without bonuses from cards.

I know, different game, different situation. But it does shed some light, I think, about what the designer considers "normal dice" in a game with similar mechanics and style of play.

Rather than saying "...the attacking unit rolls its normal dice...", I think it would be clearer (to me) if the rule read, "...the attacking unit totals its dice for melee against a leader as normal, but with the following exceptions:...(terrain)...(hit on swords)...(Command Cards?)" and then giving comprehensive examples that include a Rifle Light infantry unit in square and consideration (if any, I'm still not sure) for any bonuses for the Command Card in play.

 
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Todd Rewoldt
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but, Brady, how many dice would the Elephants roll if attacked by an infantry unit in square? just kidding

If "normal battle dice" has a stricter definition, one that means, essentially, absence of outside modifiers - cool, that would be easy to apply.
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That's easy, Todd. The Elephant would roll its normal dice! laugh

I just want the written rule and the examples to match and reflect the intent. That's no small task when it comes to wargame rules, I'll readily grant. Probably, there will always be questions. I should be glad we live in a time when they can be readily answered.

Although, I don't think the way we've been playing at our separate tables has been very wrong. I don't think any of my losses has ever hinged on it! I think the big thing for me to remember is that squares (whether composed of 1 block of Militia or 5 of Guard Grenadiers) only get a crack of 1 die when trying to stop an Escaping Leader. And no bonus from play of Command Cards.
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Bayernkini wrote:
Just received the official answers from Richard.
FAQ update on ccnapoleonics.net follows asap.

Q. A Leader escapes through an enemy (3Block) Heavy Cavalry, which is in a town hex. How many dice the HC rolls to hit the leader?


A. 4 dice

Per the Leader Escape Procedure Rules: Move the leader onto the enemy hex and allow the enemy unit in the hex to battle the leader. The attacking unit uses its normal number of melee combat dice. In this case Heavy Cavalry will roll 4 dice. The leader does not benefit from terrain in the hex.


That seems to contradict the rule in my mind, as HC in a town hex automatically has its attack reduced by 3 for attacking FROM the town hex . . .
 
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Bayernkini wrote:

Todd, you can be sure, that all FAQ, we publish on

http://www.ccnapoleonics.net/Rules/FAQs/leaders.html

otherwise it could happen, that we have soon a FAQ with a scope,
as the FAQ of MM44 is in meanwhile ;)


Actually, I like the M44 FAQ a lot. Very thorough...

I know I've said it before, but I will probably keep repeating it. I very much appreciate you gents compiling the "official FAQ on your cits, but the CCA/CCN FAQs need to be in a printable format (so they can be printed out and stored with them game) to make them really useful.
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NimitsTexan wrote:
Bayernkini wrote:
Just received the official answers from Richard.
FAQ update on ccnapoleonics.net follows asap.

Q. A Leader escapes through an enemy (3Block) Heavy Cavalry, which is in a town hex. How many dice the HC rolls to hit the leader?


A. 4 dice

Per the Leader Escape Procedure Rules: Move the leader onto the enemy hex and allow the enemy unit in the hex to battle the leader. The attacking unit uses its normal number of melee combat dice. In this case Heavy Cavalry will roll 4 dice. The leader does not benefit from terrain in the hex.


That seems to contradict the rule in my mind, as HC in a town hex automatically has its attack reduced by 3 for attacking FROM the town hex . . .


That is true. However, the rule for the Leader Escape says that "the leader does not benefit from terrain in the hex." Reducing the attacker's dice for terrain in the hex would be to the leader's benefit, wouldn't it?
 
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Steve Duke
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I think it is a fair point.

It is one thing to not give the fleeing leader any terrain benefit. That seems clear to me.

But if the hex in question would reduce the dice of the unit the leader is trying to flee through, why wouldn't that count? Wouldn't it be easier for the leader and his entourage to escape through enemy units in a village, for example, than through open ground?

Of course it is logic like that which has put me on the wrong side of Borg's rulings several times, so I am pretty confident I've gotten this wrong too. :
 
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If the enemy side holds the terrain being entered, why should the escaping leader and his entourage get the benefit of it? They aren't stopping to hide in it. They're passing through it to get away as quick as they can.

And it's still a roll of the dice. A fine chance I'd whiff it!
 
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Steve Duke
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If the enemy side holds the terrain being entered, why should the escaping leader and his entourage get the benefit of it?

If the 'benefit' of the terrain is to reduce the dice/effectiveness of the holding unit, why would the holding unit get a pass on that to attack a fleeing leader?

Is it any different than that same unit fighting in melee and suffering the reduced dice for fighting out of 'bad' terrain?

And you are right, I'd whiff on this no matter how many dice I am throwing.....shake

 
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