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1846: The Race for the Midwest» Forums » General

Subject: The Long Wait rss

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Steve Carey
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I wanted to order a copy of 1846, but was informed by Deep Thought Games that the current wait is generally 18-24 months.

They suggested that second-hand copies are frequently available, but I see nothing here in the marketplace nor on ebay.

Any suggestions?
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Brandon M
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1. Subscribe to the game here, and be sure to enable the Item For Sale, eBay Auction, and Geeklist Item options (because Geeklists are often used for auctions). Check your subscriptions every day, because the hard to find 18XX games don't last more than a day in the BGG marketplace. spielboy.com says there have been 4 sales of 1846 since 2012, so you might be waiting for a while.

2. Subscribe to the 18XX Yahoo mailing list.

Until you manage to obtain a copy you can always play with Cyberboard.

Edit: Also put an order in at Deep Thought now. For any game other than 1854, because that's supposed to be printed by Mayfair soon ("soon"). That order will serve as a placeholder, and 2-3 years from now when you have a list of Deep Thought games you want to order, you'll be able to add them to your order. And if you decide you don't want your placeholder game, it probably won't take you more than a day to sell it on BGG.
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Kevin Ice
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Steve Carey wrote:
I wanted to order a copy of 1846, but was informed by Deep Thought Games that the current wait is generally 18-24 months.

They suggested that second-hand copies are frequently available, but I see nothing here in the marketplace nor on ebay.

Any suggestions?


My DTG order is going to take much longer than the quoted year and a half when I ordered. I don't see movement on it very often.
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Steve Carey
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Thanks for the feedback - I don't play games via computer, and my intent is to introduce it to my regular group, so I'll stay on the lookout for a physical copy.
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Brandon M
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ktice wrote:
My DTG order is going to take much longer than the quoted year and a half when I ordered. I don't see movement on it very often.


Apparently the number of games ahead of you is not at all accurate. But FWIW I placed my order in February 2012, and I'm still waiting.
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Ægir Æxx
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Until you get copy, have a go with 1889. It's a great first step in the 18xx universe. There is a great PnP copy avalible in the files section.
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JR
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Everyone has a price, so just because there are no second-hand copies listed doesn't mean they aren't available, it just means no one is actively trying to flog it (not too surprising). If you're really keen on this title you could always make a post here and/or on the yahoo list announcing that you're looking for a copy and willing to pay the premium to get it now.

I'm not looking to sell my copy, but for enough money I surely would. I'd bet there are people with a lower breaking point than me.
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John Brewer
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At least one guy has gone so far as to build one for himself: 1846 Redesign. I'd be really sad if the barrier to entry into 18XX started involving a color printer and a laminator, but maybe he's onto something.
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JR
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On the one hand, I applaud said user for his willingness and ability to craft a complete game. On the other hand, I feel sorry for anyone who has to play with that particular visual design of the game and can't help but think that openly advocating piracy of an in-print game is not going to be a very good solution to the perceived problem of unavailability of DTG titles.
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Steve Carey
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jrebelo wrote:
I'm not looking to sell my copy, but for enough money I surely would. I'd bet there are people with a lower breaking point than me.


I actually thought of this angle before posting as I didn't want to encourage a price gouging, but ultimately had enough faith in the BGG community to go ahead and create the thread.

If looking at spending big bucks, I'm considering this... 18OE: On the Rails of the Orient Express
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John Brewer
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jrebelo wrote:
[I] can't help but think that openly advocating piracy of an in-print game is not going to be a very good solution to the perceived problem of unavailability of DTG titles.


If he were trying to sell them without a license, I would take a much dimmer view of the situation. Given that he's not releasing the materials as a Print-and-Play, and the parts are quite clearly not DTG's designs (indicating he actually laid out all of the components), that's an enormous amount of work to manufacture a single copy.

I can see the argument that this could be advocating piracy, but I saw it much more the act of a fan who was sufficiently dedicated and loved the game enough to spend dozens of hours creating his own set. I'll be interested to see what consensus the community comes to.
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JR
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Bronzite wrote:

If he were trying to sell them without a license, I would take a much dimmer view of the situation. Given that he's not releasing the materials as a Print-and-Play, and the parts are quite clearly not DTG's designs (indicating he actually laid out all of the components), that's an enormous amount of work to manufacture a single copy.

I can see the argument that this could be advocating piracy, but I saw it much more the act of a fan who was sufficiently dedicated and loved the game enough to spend dozens of hours creating his own set. I'll be interested to see what consensus the community comes to.


As I said in the part you didn't quote, I applaud his crafting abilities - regardless of my opinion on his visual design choices. You're correct that it is no small feat to create a game from the ground up in this way.

I realize that files are not being shared, etc., which is why I only make a passing comment on the subject. I can attest to the fact that games most definitely do come up on the open market. In fact, I have about 7 or 8 DTG games currently in my collection and 6 of them were purchased second hand. As it happens, I have five more DTGs that I purchased directly from DTG being delivered to my house today (my second DTG direct order which I played 3+ years ago). I already have a spot in line for my next order, whenever that comes around.
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John Brewer
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I apologize, I only mean to reduce the quotebox size, not to ignore or disregard the prior contents of your post.
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Steve Carey
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It's an interesting debate whether a product which takes 3 years to deliver is "in print" or not, but personally I prefer to err on the side of caution and completely respect the creator's and publisher's rights.

In any event, it's much easier for me to simply pay for a copy (presuming I can find one!) instead of laboriously hand-crafting a copy.
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Mike Anastasia
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jrebelo wrote:
On the one hand, I applaud said user for his willingness and ability to craft a complete game. On the other hand, I feel sorry for anyone who has to play with that particular visual design of the game and can't help but think that openly advocating piracy of an in-print game is not going to be a very good solution to the perceived problem of unavailability of DTG titles.


Obviously, visual design is a subjective issue, everyone's taste is his own - nobody but me needs to like the direction I went. I'd like to respond to your comments about piracy though.

I don't want to advocate or conduct piracy of any in-print game; and I do consider '46 and the other Deep Thought titles to be in-print. I am in the queue waiting for the opportunity to buy a copy of '46 and I have no intention of canceling that order.

Prior to assembling my DIY version, I contacted both Tom Lehmann and John Tamplin and sought their permission to release my redesign. Both indicated that I was welcome to manufacture a copy for myself but did not authorize me to distribute it to to others. I've done exactly that. Maybe I should have been more overt about this in my post over in the DIY forum.
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JR
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MyNameIsFourteen wrote:
Prior to assembling my DIY version, I contacted both Tom Lehmann and John Tamplin and sought their permission to release my redesign. Both indicated that I was welcome to manufacture a copy for myself but did not authorize me to distribute it to to others. I've done exactly that. Maybe I should have been more overt about this in my post over in the DIY forum.


That's very interesting info and I appreciate you adding this detail which I think is extremely relevant! I am glad to know printing your own copy won't dissuade you from making the purchase when your opportunity comes up. It's quite a game and a small niche that needs the support of the players to keep going.
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Ilkka Virta
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The quick calculations I made about the status of my DTG order point to a waiting time of 3+ years. A hard-core enthusiast might not mind, but someone who plays mainly other games and wants to try 1846 or any other 18xx may well be discouraged enough to just forget about it. It doesn't get any better given that there are no real statistics for the actual waiting time.

To play 18xx, one can of course buy 1830 from a store, and also there are other games in the genre that might be more readily available. But it seems, at least, that 1846 is different enough from other 18xx for someone to want to try it for its own sake, and not to substitute with something else.

I have to agree with what was said above: if the fastest and easiest way to get a copy of a supposedly in-print game is to do it oneself, the situation is quite sad.

jrebelo wrote:
...and can't help but think that openly advocating piracy of an in-print game is not going to be a very good solution to the perceived problem of unavailability of DTG titles.


Drawing and making one's own copy being piracy? (Or advocating piracy?)
Can you please elaborate what, exactly, is the act of "piracy" here?

Piracy is usually understood to mean copyright infringement, so you are practically hinting that someone is committing a crime. I don't think accusations like that should be made lightly.


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Bruce Murphy
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He actually means piracy in the sense of sailing up to a small publisher and stabbing them with a rusty cutlass.

B>
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JR
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itvirta wrote:
Drawing and making one's own copy being piracy? (Or advocating piracy?)
Can you please elaborate what, exactly, is the act of "piracy" here?

Piracy is usually understood to mean copyright infringement, so you are practically hinting that someone is committing a crime. I don't think accusations like that should be made lightly.


First, let's not forget the fact that my comments were made prior to the pnp creator stating that he received written permission from the designer and publisher to create his own copy of the game. Thus this is absolutely not piracy in any form.

I believe that the motive is perhaps affecting your perception of what constitutes piracy, or maybe I'm the one who's understanding it incorrectly. Suppose that someone takes to printing out the DTG library of games for themselves because they don't agree with the price of the games? Then is it piracy? I guess if one is required to make profit off of the copyright infringement, then the term would be incorrect in the case of people self-printing games to avoid purchasing them from the producer (which is how the designer realizes some meagre return).

I realize that separate to this issue is one of availability, but that's a different discussion.
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Alex P
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Worrying about that kind of piracy is a waste of time. The benefits of someone printing out their own copy of, say, 1889 (which my friend did) greatly outweighs any downsides.

First, if someone is that poor as to not be able to afford a professional production, they would have never had ordered from DTG anyway.

If they're so in love with this family of games, they will stand in line and buy the game anyway (or another).

The benefits: other people (me, e.g.) will get to know the genre and get hooked and make their own orders (I want three games when my number gets called).

More people playing means even more people discovering the genre, especially as we want to play with the maximum number of players just to see what the in-game effects would be.

Some of those people may be innovators that may create their own games with rules that may attract even more people to this style of game.

All of this creates a positive feedback loop that increases things that serve to increase participation, more plays and potential sales.
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Tom Lehmann
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Just to be clear:

I have no problem with any individual making their *own* PnP copy of 1846 from scratch.

Both DTG and I, the designer of 1846, do have a problem with someone posting all the 1846 files for others to download. That is against BGG policy. We do NOT authorize anyone to do so.
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Bruce Murphy
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Tom Lehmann wrote:
Just to be clear:

I have no problem with any individual making their *own* PnP copy of 1846 from scratch.

Both DTG and I, the designer of 1846, do have a problem with someone posting all the 1846 files for others to download. That is against BGG policy. We do NOT authorize anyone to do so.


A BGG admin informed me that this is not (is no longer?) against their policy and that they would require legal steps by a designer/publisher in order before they'd do anything. I have not done a survey of multiple BGG admins.

Personally, I think the old policy that you also recall was more civilised.

B>
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Tom Lehmann
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thepackrat wrote:
A BGG admin informed me that this is not (is no longer?) against their policy

I don't believe this reported information is accurate.

From the BGG terms of service, section 4, Part B (quoted July 22, 2014):
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You shall not upload User Submissions containing material that is copyrighted, protected by trademark or trade secret, or otherwise subject to third party proprietary rights, including privacy and publicity rights, unless you are the owner of such rights or have permissions from their rightful owner to post the material and to grant Geekdo all of the licenses granted herein.

From the BGG "long list" of posting rules (quoted July 22, 2014):
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The following are prohibited: [...]
Requesting or providing information or materials that allows others to create, purchase, or download unofficial replications of a game or other works protected by copyright without the permission of the rights holder.
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marc magner
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Tom Lehmann wrote:
Just to be clear:

I have no problem with any individual making their *own* PnP copy of 1846 from scratch.

Both DTG and I, the designer of 1846, do have a problem with someone posting all the 1846 files for others to download. That is against BGG policy. We do NOT authorize anyone to do so.


tom is there a way to compensate you directly and get the files for a PnP
as my current order wait is either at 2.5 years or 3.5 years (long enough that i can no longer remember when i entered it) and i'm still 200+ in the que?
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Tom Lehmann
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easterly1 wrote:
tom is there a way to compensate you directly and get the files for a PnP

No. The 1846 files were created by DTG from my (ugly) prototype. My understanding is that DTG is not interested in selling a PnP file download kit, as those files could then be simply reposted elsewhere.
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