Jared Parks
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I've been reading on the forums, and I've seen it suggested to add in non-skillcheck treachery cards along side the Daybreak treachery cards. I believe it's to help balance out mutiny cards and such.


Is this a good suggestion, or should I ignore the suggestion?


EDIT: I meant Daybreak, not Exodus.
 
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Re: Suggested Variant: Reasoning behind suggested "adding non-standard Pegasus treachery cards with Exodus" reckless?
There are no exodus treachery cards. (Now corrected to 'daybreak' in the OP)

There's 26 with Pegasus, and 26 with Daybreak, and the rulebook recommends that you dont mix the decks - just use one or the other.

I find it quite fun to test out variants. Probably try the suggestion at least once, and then if you dont like it just dont use it again.

A friend of mine suggested a variant where we mix both treachery decks to have a deck of 52, and reckless effects work both ways - daybreak rules AND pegasus rules as well. So someone can play broadcast location to place a basestar, but more treachery cards might come out after the check as well, as per daybreak rules.



 
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Re: Suggested Variant: Reasoning behind suggested "adding non-standard Pegasus treachery cards with Exodus" reckless?
RpTheHotrod wrote:
I've been reading on the forums, and I've seen it suggested to add in non-skillcheck treachery cards along side the exodus treachery cards. I believe it's to help balance out mutiny cards and such.

Is this a good suggestion, or should I ignore the suggestion?


Starfox4 wrote:
There are no exodus treachery cards.
there's 26 with Pegasus, and 26 with Daybreak, and the rulebook recommends that you dont mix the decks - just use one or the other.

I find it quite fun to test out variants. Probably try the suggestion at least once, and then if you dont like it just dont use it again.

A friend of mine suggested a variant where we mix both treachery decks to have a deck of 52, and reckless effects work both ways - daybreak rules AND pegasus rules as well. So someone can play broadcast location to place a basestar, but more treachery cards might come out after the check as well, as per daybreak rules.

I believe the wording of the OP suggests that saying "non-skill check Treachery cards", he was referring to Pegasus, while adding in Exodus skill cards was another statement.

That aside, I find if I were to combine both sets of Treacheries, that's what I'd do... for a Reckless Skill Check, resolve both the Daybreak style of it, and the Pegasus style of it if present.

Even though Pegasus Reckless Skill Check text occurred more infrequently (namely, it was a 2-step process, one of which requires human intervention), they definitely hit harder when they do occur. I do miss being able to activate raiders and heavies while trying to get out of the Brig
 
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Jared Parks
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Re: Suggested Variant: Reasoning behind suggested "adding non-standard Pegasus treachery cards with Exodus" reckless?
On my goodness. /palmface.

Sorry, I meant Pegasus and Daybreak treachery cards, NOT Exodus Reckless!

I guess this happens when you're posting on a lack of sleep, ha!

Editing to reflect this.
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Jared Parks
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All right. Considering no one can offer an explanation as to why this was suggested, I'm going to go ahead and leave the Pegasus treachery cards out per official rules.
 
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RpTheHotrod wrote:
All right. Considering no one can offer an explanation as to why this was suggested, I'm going to go ahead and leave the Pegasus treachery cards out per official rules.


Focus vs. diversity. Focus because now every single Treachery card now has a Skill Check effect that means Treachery will always do something. Also more concentration on Mutiny overall. Last but not least, higher chances of Treachery getting reshuffled.
 
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Jared Parks
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ackmondual wrote:
RpTheHotrod wrote:
All right. Considering no one can offer an explanation as to why this was suggested, I'm going to go ahead and leave the Pegasus treachery cards out per official rules.


Focus vs. diversity. Focus because now every single Treachery card now has a Skill Check effect that means Treachery will always do something. Also more concentration on Mutiny overall. Last but not least, higher chances of Treachery getting reshuffled.


Is having "only" the new Daybreak treachery good or bad thing in your eyes?
 
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RpTheHotrod wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
RpTheHotrod wrote:
All right. Considering no one can offer an explanation as to why this was suggested, I'm going to go ahead and leave the Pegasus treachery cards out per official rules.


Focus vs. diversity. Focus because now every single Treachery card now has a Skill Check effect that means Treachery will always do something. Also more concentration on Mutiny overall. Last but not least, higher chances of Treachery getting reshuffled.


Is having "only" the new Daybreak treachery good or bad thing in your eyes?
Overall, I view it as a good thing. It can make the game harder for humans, but such is the way it should be.

I like how Daybreak Treachery is more prominent now, but miss some of the heavy hitting and variety in Pegasus Treachery.

I wouldn't be opposed if a group wants to try a game with both Treacheries mixed in.
 
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Cameron McKenzie
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Daybreak Treachery is a lot more interesting strategically, and it is a lot more consistent with the rules up to this point.

Pegasus creates an annoying rules inconsistency in having Treachery cards only be used by revealed cylons, making them fundamentally different from every other type of skill card. Daybreak Treachery has no such inconsistency.

Related to the above, Pegasus Treachery actively encourages cylons to reveal so they can use it. Even the Skill Check treachery cards are practically impossible to use in secret because of the non-existent penalties for discarding Treachery before a cylon has revealed.

Daybreak Treachery works very well for these reasons:
-They are all skill check effects, so everything in the stack can be used effectively by cylons, whether revealed or unrevealed, without getting themselves outed.
-There are penalties for discarding about half of them, which means that as Treachery goes around, you will see a few people empty it from their hands, and a few hold on. There is bound to be some suspicion - are they holding it because it's a mutiny-card, or do they have something planned? When a nasty treachery comes up in a skill check, the suspicion really starts wandering.

Basically, I think Daybreak treachery does a fantastic job of ramping up the paranoia and secrecy in the game, while Pegasus Treachery does not. I don't miss anything about Pegasus.
 
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Overall, I like Day Tr better. However, I don't quite agree with the below points.

MasterDinadan wrote:
Daybreak Treachery is a lot more interesting strategically, and it is a lot more consistent with the rules up to this point.
Peg Tr hits harder though, like activating a bunch of ships, straight up losing a resource, and putting out a whole basestar.

MasterDinadan wrote:
Pegasus creates an annoying rules inconsistency in having Treachery cards only be used by revealed cylons, making them fundamentally different from every other type of skill card. Daybreak Treachery has no such inconsistency.
The only annoying thing was really Reckless Skill Check. There were few rare people who would never get it in a million years, but most people got it after seeing it in action. This still persists in Daybreak as you need to do that procedure at the end of the skill check if the check was made Reckless, which I'm a bit disappointed to see that many people forget to resolve.

Basically, if people understood the concept of revealed cylons no longer being able to use typical skill cards outside of skill checks (e.g. can't play Declare Emergency for its text, you can't XO others, you can't play SP), then you just flip-flop it... revealed cylons can only use Treachery cards text, not non-Treachery.

MasterDinadan wrote:
Related to the above, Pegasus Treachery actively encourages cylons to reveal so they can use it. Even the Skill Check treachery cards are practically impossible to use in secret because of the non-existent penalties for discarding Treachery before a cylon has revealed.
Not entirely true. In order to get the Reckless Skill Check to trigger, the skill check needs to be made Reckless, which requires human intervention. Revealing won't let you do that.

If anything, the non-Treachery 0s in Daybreak are impossible to use in secret, and those encourage cylons to either reveal earlier, or out themselves rather than refusing to help (e.g. you spike a crucial skill check. You can either stay off their radar and take a 3 via Quick Thinking which now passes it, undoing your spike, or just strike now).
 
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ackmondual wrote:
If anything, the non-Treachery 0s in Daybreak are impossible to use in secret, and those encourage cylons to either reveal earlier, or out themselves rather than refusing to help (e.g. you spike a crucial skill check. You can either stay off their radar and take a 3 via Quick Thinking which now passes it, undoing your spike, or just strike now).


I don't think I understand.
Do you mean non-zero treacheries?
I think cylons have an easier time using them in Daybreak than in Pegasus, because players won't be discarding Treachery at every possible opportunity (Half of them penalize you for discarding, and many others are actually helpful in certain cases). This means that when the time comes to drop a Treachery spike, it can't be linked to "the only person who didn't discard a Treachery earlier"
 
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MasterDinadan wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
If anything, the non-Treachery 0s in Daybreak are impossible to use in secret, and those encourage cylons to either reveal earlier, or out themselves rather than refusing to help (e.g. you spike a crucial skill check. You can either stay off their radar and take a 3 via Quick Thinking which now passes it, undoing your spike, or just strike now).


I don't think I understand.
Do you mean non-zero treacheries?
I think cylons have an easier time using them in Daybreak than in Pegasus, because players won't be discarding Treachery at every possible opportunity (Half of them penalize you for discarding, and many others are actually helpful in certain cases). This means that when the time comes to drop a Treachery spike, it can't be linked to "the only person who didn't discard a Treachery earlier"


He's talking about the 0-strength cards in the other Daybreak skill decks - Quick Thinking and... well, maybe Force Their Hand and Dogfight - All Hands on Deck is automatically pro-human and Install Upgrades only helps the current player - the ones that require a public decision to be made rather than getting slipped into a skill check and doing their thing like most of the Exodus ones. Quick Thinking usually has an obvious pro-human option; the others at least some of the time offer two bad choices rather than a clearly good one.

Back on Treachery:

Reckless skill checks are a bit of a mess generally - the two stage process, the whole thing with having four different reckless effects that conflict with each other, and the big swing between situations where triggering a reckless effect is fairly painless, and ones where it would hurt a lot so humans avoid setting it up...

God's Plan is a nice design, but Movement is the other messed up mechanic in Pegasus - it's something that has to be explained at the start of the game because it might come up any time, but will usually be forgotten by the time it does come up, and it works the opposite way to Action - using Movement Step as the label or just making it a Move action (though that might interact with the Brig) would be better. It's not so much a problem with Pegasus Treachery as with Pegasus generally, but it's in there.

And the whole thing with Cylons not being able to play skill cards except Treachery, which humans can't play, is fine as a complication to an understood ruleset, but is a step too far for new players - it's a lot easier to learn "Cylons can't play skill cards".
 
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Aurélien Defossez
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I liked the idea at first, but in the end I won't play with this variant because:

- I wouldn't add the "Reckless skill check" treacheries, because the new daybreak reckless check is better from my point of view and easier to explain for newbies
- Therefore, this would add only 3 types of cards, (2 and 3 value), which means the reckless skills checks would trigger less often (because it triggers on a 0-value card).
 
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