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Subject: So, the manufacturer is to blame... Really? rss

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Pierre
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Out of curiosity I check the Recon Updates every once in a while to see how it goes (I'm not a backer of Recon, mind you) - and you know what?
MCG has the guts to blame the manufacturer for ALL the delays:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1700755582/mercs-recon/...

Quote:
Furthermore, there will be changes to the miniature manufacturer. Simply put, too many issues on their end have hurt us. EVERY delay Myth has experienced is on the miniature manufacturer. I am going to China in October to oversee production with the new manufacturer, making sure they are being worked on and getting real eyes on number of minis produced per day/week, etc.


I can barely hold my nerdrage in check.

From my memories I can instantly name the following delays caused by MCG, and MCG only as far as their communication allows me to judge:
- Early delivery (which they teased some time after funding was finished) was cancelled due to tax reasons - fair enough, I will not blame them for that.
- They were not satisfied with the state of some miniatures when the final print files were due for the manufacturer - thus they delayed everything. We will get better sculpted minis, I'll give them that. But basically this is the sole reason for a massive delay.
- When they finally provided the print files, the manufacturer had to put them in queue for production because they - believe it or not - had to print stuff for other companies.
- When wave 1 shipped, their umbrella name of Megacon Games caused customs to hold their container(s) back and they had to sort it out.


All of this can be backtraced by checking the updates. I won't do that now as most of the backers are well aware of all these facts.

Now MCG blames the mufacturer for ALL the delays?

But wait, there's more in the comments:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1700755582/mercs-recon/...

Quote:
Fair enough, we were responsible for the first delay.

How has that been remedied? We have made contact with Amazon and will most likely let them do all fulfillment on Recon. Myth fulfillment has been very time-intensive work and we'd rather use that time better.

Then our space is used for those games we print for distribution and convention sells.


This made me laugh like a maniac. "Well, now that you mention it...look there! A three-headed monkey!"
Amazon will (possibly) do Recon fulfillment? That's nice and all but how does this help Myth backers that are waiting for a product that is 6 months late by now (please don't mention other KS's delays, I don't care about them)?

You know what? The manufacturer really may have caused trouble and delays, but heck, I believe that the most and time eating delays were caused by MCG and no one else.
Blaming the manufacturer for EVERYTHING they did wrong is pretty lame and they should be ashamed. Boo, Megacon Games!
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Frank Franco
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nightye wrote:


I can barely hold my nerdrage in check.


Then don't fucking read updates for games you are not even fucking interested in!

Do people get paid to spam the boards with this fucking garbage? Or are you just upset that these forums were starting to resemble an actual game forum as opposed to a nerd soap opera?

Go create a "I-hate-Mercs" guild and have a brotherly bitch over there, that way those of us who don't give a shit about this petty crap don't have to read it.

Rant over.

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Shakka
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Were there too few flame posts in the last days for you?

Some people have no real problems in their life when they "nerdrage" and "laugh like a maniac" because of things like that.

Dont take everything so serious. There are humans on the other side.

And the game should be out VERY soon now ...

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Endevor Rovedne
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We can understand in the Recon update that the number of minis produced per day given by the manufacturer was not accurate (this is why Brian said he will go to china and check these numbers).

They are learning for sure, i know there is non-chinese people living in china taking contracts to visit manufacturers, check progression and quality. It seem a good investment for this kind of big projects.

@Franck don't you think you are over-reacting? You really should apply the moderation you are yelling for...
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Pierre
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Skeletor:
If such threads upset you in such a manner you may want to refrain from reading the Myth forums as well. And you seem to have too much time yourself if you have nothing better to do than post aggressive and unpolite replies to threads that you don't have anything productive to contribute to anyway - regardless how pointless you consider said threads.

To answer your "question": I am actually interested in how Recon goes because - if Myth becomes a game that is liked among the people I play with - I will consider backing an expansion.
If, however, Recon shares a similar fate with Myth regarding delivery and everything that surrounds the game, I won't even think about backing a Myth expansion.
I know, I have not even played the game, let alone held it in my hands - but the "offending" statement was made very recently. So I wanted to share my thoughts with other backers.

Shakalaka:
Exactly, there are people on the other side. The Chinese factory probably won't even see this statement - even if the did they certainly won't care.
But what are backers supposed to think seeing such statements? What about people who missed the KS and think about buying retail but stumble across such statements? I don't care how unlikely you consider the possiblity of someone finding this exact statement in a different game's kickstarter update. The statement's there and to me it speaks volumes.


Don't get me wrong - I am looking forward to Myth. I accepted the delays and held a high opinion on MCG for the efforts they take to improve the rulebook, cards, and everything else around Myth.
I did not begrudge them for the delays in any way. I will get the game, and that is what counts.

What I don't understand is the way they shove any responsibility away and blame others for their mistakes or delays that could have been avoided by proper planning. This sheds a new light on MCG and remembers me of Dark Darker Darkest, which was a complete mess in more than one way as well because of poor post-Kickstarter handling. The game itself is fun - but it has been a rocky experience for both, backers and publisher. Myth and DDD are very similar in that regard.

I am more than willing to give an expansion a fair chance when the game meets my expectations. But I am also in the vote-with-your-wallet boat and will not back another project if the company does not learn from their mistakes. And the statement in question did not exactly help in that regard.

The point of my opening post was to inform others about this and let them make up their own mind. If you don't care about it that's fine.
But there is no need to flame and repeat those "haven't had enough flames?" and "you've got too much time" postings.
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Malcolm Solo
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I'm sure this is stuff that has already been read, but its worth putting it here again, because I think Megacon was pretty clear about the delays and the their promises versus the factories' promises.

Update #117 is very revealing as to the quality of communication between the mini manufacturers in China and Megacon.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1700755582/myth-0/posts...

"We don’t have someone like that for the miniatures. Our contact is the owner and an employee who is with the plant. This is important, because apparently they haven’t quite followed our instructions in terms of production of all the miniatures. From emails, it is clear that this request of ours never made it to the production floor."

Here the manufacturers did not follow all their instructions.

"However, the production part is based off a queue (something we didn’t take into account). It has long been rumored that if we could have shipped early why were they not done and that must mean we have known for quite some time that we were going to be late, therefore lies, therefore aliens."

Here, Megacon admits responsibility for not taking into account the queue system.

"The reason is when we delayed the shipment we moved back in the production queue. Apparently, much further back. We didn’t expect this, but probably should have. We experienced it at are previous jobs, but we didn’t have to deal with production or fulfillment there. Previously we were on a deadline to keep our place in line at the plant."

Here Megacon admits to the fact that when they delayed the shipment they were moved back in the production queue, which causes serious delays.

EDIT: Megacon may not have told us about some more serious delays and miscommunications on behalf of the factory.
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pha3drus wrote:
Update #117 is very revealing as to the quality of communication between the mini manufacturers in China and Megacon.


I'm seeing this happen regularly with KS involving plastics made in China by first-time projects (eg. Cthulhu Wars). Basically, if you don't have someone on site who speaks Chinese, expect delays. If the manufacturer screws up (eg. Arkham Horror dice) add a month to the project. Customs also may randomly delay a project.
 
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Kurt Bieberbach
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Mr Skeletor wrote:
Go create a "I-hate-Mercs" guild ...


Actually, that isn't a bad idea. I wonder if one of the more vocal detractors would be willing to do that?

One good thing that comes of it though, it keeps Myth on the Hotness list. As they say, “there’s no such thing as bad publicity.” It makes me wonder if Brian Shotten isn't some kind of diabolical PR genius.
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Donny Behne
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So Game Salute gets tarred and feathered and no one can seem to not talk about it (myself included) and you feel it necessary to throw someone else under the bus because it's in style? Here's a concept - don't care. It's not worth caring. It's not worth your time. They aren't stealing a lollipop from a toddler, they aren't riding around in white bed sheets, and they aren't stealing another company's intellectual property. It's a non-issue. Yes, MCG had some major screw ups and Myth is not the release it should have been. I continue to be skeptical about future releases. But come on. This isn't necessary. Let people talk about the game and take the drama somewhere else.
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Frank Franco
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nightye wrote:
Skeletor:
If such threads upset you in such a manner you may want to refrain from reading the Myth forums as well.


I shouldn't have to.
Now that eveything is calming down a cool little community seems to be springing up around Myth with the fanbase comming up with ideas, play aids and the like for the game. Castles are starting to be made out of the sandbox.
THAT is what these boards should be for. Making what we all paid for awesome.
Your post comes across as simple flamebait. Mercs changed manufacturers - so what? People have been screaming that they want to see changes, that Mercs have learned from their mistakes - well here is a pretty big change which should make things better but your complaining? Would you rather they just do things the exact same way again?!?
They can't win.
Who cares who blames who. Just fix the issues. As consumers these changes will either improve recon or leave us no worse off.
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Tony Go
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The Chinese manufacturers I used for Hunters of Arcfall made a few mistakes that were resolved pretty quickly. The language barrier was never too much of a problem. They also told me that no one has ever given them such a complete set of files and how-to's. I made a very long PDF showing exactly how I wanted everything and drew up pack-out diagrams and labeled all materials, finishes, and processes. All my files followed a naming schema that was outlines in aforementioned pdf.

All of this and it was still 2 months late. But that was my fault. If I emailed more often I think it would've got done sooner. The final product is not perfect but there aren't any typo's or defects.

To be fair, my game is not nearly as complex and has no miniatures whatsoever. I just wanted to added a bit of perspective. You can go into something absolutely 100% fully prepared, as I thought I did, and still end up in delays and errors.
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Pierre
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Mr Skeletor wrote:

I shouldn't have to.
[...]
THAT is what these boards should be for. Making what we all paid for awesome.

The boards are there to discuss a wide range of topics revolving around games - not only the plastic, cardboard and rulesets - unless I misunderstood the terms of use. But I agree - the main purpose should be to discuss the game itself. And when the full package is in our hands I'm certain this will be the case.

Thus I intentionally chose an obvious subject line that helps people to stay away from the thread if they are fed up with threads not directly dealing with Myth as a game.

Quote:

Your post comes across as simple flamebait.

If that is your impression I won't argue. But answering something you consider flamebait with a flame is somewhat contradictory, don't you think? The best way to reply to flamebait is to not reply at all and let the thread vanish into insignificance. Some people showed their disagreement by clicking the Hide button on my OP, which is fine.

Quote:

Mercs changed manufacturers - so what? People have been screaming that they want to see changes, that Mercs have learned from their mistakes - well here is a pretty big change which should make things better but your complaining?

I did not complain about Mercs switching manufacturers. I don't know where you got that from unless Amazon has entered board game printing.

Quote:

Who cares who blames who. Just fix the issues. As consumers these changes will either improve recon or leave us no worse off.

It's not just about who blames whom. It's about keeping it professional.
Other publishers don't add a "What did the manufacturer mess up?" section to their FAQs either.

The point here is that it offers another insight into the company's mindset. They started as a nobody which was simply to like.
Over the past months I read many posts that influenced that impression because people's complaints, questions and comments sometimes were - according to the posters - answered in more or less rude ways. If only half of these postings that "document" those cases bear the truth it's something to consider when thinking about backing Mercs again.
I have had a minor contact with Mercs and I was replied to very quickly and in a satisfactory way (though my request was very simple and uncomplicated). Thus I have had a good experience with them so far.

The advantage and at the same time disadvantage of crowdfuning is in plain sight here. On the one hand you as a gamer and backer not only get the finished game to your table. You get involved into the development and manufacturing procss, if the publisher decides to share such information with you.
Mercs did an astounding job of keeping people informed and got us involved from what I can tell.
However this kind of involvement also draws unpleasant questions and criticism. That's something you have to deal with as a company. Many companies hire a PR manager for such matters - who do nothing else and concentrate on customer communication.
If you don't have the resources and let the designers themselves do the PR stuff, they'd better check their postings twice before posting and mailing things that should - on second though - not have been sent.
Regardless how rude the customers are. Regardless how unhappy you are with the manufacturer that handled your order. They simply could have said "Well, we had issues with the manufacturer and moved on to another." That's perfectly fine. Blaming them for everything that went wrong is not.

Customers tend to be a-holes when they don't get exactly what they expected.
I handle customer demands on a daily basis and cannot afford to show the customers the "kind of honesty" I sometimes would like to because I would damage my employer's reputation. Keeping it polite and professional is most important. The same applies to any kind of business if you don't want to damage your reputation. I think this also applies to companies you won't be dealing with ever again.


My intention was to forward this info to others so people who missed it can evaluate it themselves - no flame intended. No call to boycot. As I hopefully made clear, I still have an eye on Mercs/Megacon for future releases and am looking forward to the product itself.
I also applaud them for staying involved in improving the game by "patching" it - even though most of this patching should not have been necessary in the first place.
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Joe Reil
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Sam and Max wrote:
I'm seeing this happen regularly with KS involving plastics made in China by first-time projects (eg. Cthulhu Wars). Basically, if you don't have someone on site who speaks Chinese, expect delays.


This is huge and, while it's a different field, I have direct experience working with overseas suppliers. In my case, I work in publishing and we have some of our composition done in India. There's a huge amount of effort and time spent in communication and coordination between our two offices. It's not easy and it takes real effort and commitment to do it right.
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J H
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Is it okay to swear and curse on the forums?

I'm pretty shocked to see such an offensive post at BGG

The first time I've ever seen such immature behavior really..

On the "Community Rules" it says:

The following are prohibited:

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Statements that abuse, harass, mock, insult, stalk, demean, threaten, or otherwise belittle another user, directly or indirectly, explicitly or implicitly, even if the other user started it, and even if you think the other user deserves it.

I'm hoping some kind of penalty will be due for the offender
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Donny Behne
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jerryboy86 wrote:
Is it okay to swear and curse on the forums?

I'm pretty shocked to see such an offensive post at BGG

The first time I've ever seen such immature behavior really..

On the "Community Rules" it says:

The following are prohibited:

Disruptive content, including but not limited to:
Excessive profanity

Personal attacks, including but not limited to:
Statements that abuse, harass, mock, insult, stalk, demean, threaten, or otherwise belittle another user, directly or indirectly, explicitly or implicitly, even if the other user started it, and even if you think the other user deserves it.

I'm hoping some kind of penalty will be due for the offender


It's Frank. You get used to it.

Incidentally, that same community rules you quoted says "Accusing other users of committing rules violations (e.g. accusing someone of trolling) - See the User Driven Moderating section below" and recommends you just hit the red X.
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Mr Skeletor wrote:
well here is a pretty big change which should make things better but your complaining? Would you rather they just do things the exact same way again?!?


It's exactly this. Clearly they're learning about manufacturing and shipping games on a larger scale than what they had been dealing with for MERCS.

It's also pretty clear they've learned that they'll need to have someone over there to check in on the process, and more importantly, that maybe the old manufacturer isn't the one they need going forward.

It really is bizarre to come here and read angry posts over this.

"Mistakes were made" - without question. Plenty of blame to go around. But to once again imply deception or willful neglect at this point is just weird.
 
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Frank Franco
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jerryboy86 wrote:
Is it okay to swear and curse on the forums?

I'm pretty shocked to see such an offensive post at BGG

The first time I've ever seen such immature behavior really..


Stick around, you ain't seen nothin yet.

 
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Bryn Edwards
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jerryboy86 wrote:
Is it okay to swear and curse on the forums?

I'm pretty shocked to see such an offensive post at BGG

The first time I've ever seen such immature behavior really..

On the "Community Rules" it says:

The following are prohibited:

Disruptive content, including but not limited to:
Excessive profanity

Personal attacks, including but not limited to:
Statements that abuse, harass, mock, insult, stalk, demean, threaten, or otherwise belittle another user, directly or indirectly, explicitly or implicitly, even if the other user started it, and even if you think the other user deserves it.

I'm hoping some kind of penalty will be due for the offender


Another example of misunderstandings introduced by communication barriers. My Australian -> English dictionary defines 'Fuck you, cunt' as 'Good morning'.. I'm sure no offense was meant.
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Donny Behne
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Americans tend to be sensitive in regards to language. It's amazing what you would hear just on a normal BBC show like The Office compared to an American sitcom (or the American version of The Office for that matter).
 
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Marcus Taylor
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~edit~ Oh, apparently that as offensive, so I'll rephrase it.

Frank seems very aggressive and doesn't seem like a nice person really.

He reminds me of someone else like that.
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Matthew M
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Profanity is not prohibited. Personal attacks are.

We ask that you use the icon when you see these kinds of comments or any other violations of the Community Rules. This serves two purposes:

1- using the icon will bring that post to the attention of forum moderators so they can deal with it appropriately. We prefer that you not respond to the post directly. Responding invites the offender to continue, and if you respond aggressively you may end up dragging yourself down with the offender.

2- if enough users flag a post using the icon then that post will be hidden from general view, preventing others from being exposed to it.

Thanks!
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