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Subject: Are people getting crazy over Kickstarter? rss

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Björn Fink
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On the comments the question came up if Artipia is considering of canceling the project because it is stalled at 51k. Are people really getting crazy? Its 256% overfunded and still runs for 10 days. If i back a project then i back the basegame and not the stretch goals. SG are fine but i think people are taking it for granted. What did you people think about it?
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Paulo Renato
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I think people are talking about canceling and making a re-launch when everything is ready because this campaign is not near good at all...

Yes the game is funded and it's 256%, etc... but people know what this could be if the KS has been done properly and it hasn't...

To start the period is too long... not a big deal but it would be bet imo to have a shorter campaign

But the most important point in all of this as to do with the lack of reviews and gameplay videos...

I was very very interested in the game but since my game collection is already bigger than it should be and the space is limited I don't back games just because they look nice anymore...
I required detailed explanations, reviews and people opinions and most of all game play videos...

Game Play videos are the most important thing for a KS, it's the thing that gives the backers the information they are looking for... they see the game being played and nothing is better than that (except from playing themselves) to form an educated opinion

Yes, I know that the rules are online, and that the updates explain how certain parts of the game play, but that's not what people are expecting... at least me...

I was very very excited about this game, since last Essen when Rahdo did the video...

Now they launch the KS and have nothing to show the backers for more than 60% of the campaign? Not 1 single video?

They have said it's because the prototypes got delayed... if so maybe it would really be best to cancel this project, have everything ready and then re-launch it with the videos, reviews etc... making it a shorter KS like 10 or 15 days... not much time would be lost...

People that have already back this one would certainly back the re-launch and there would be so much more people to be attracted by the game...

Yes, 256% is very good... but this has the potential to be so much more than 256%, that's all people are saying!
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Connor Cranston
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Muse23PT wrote:
Yes, 256% is very good... but this has the potential to be so much more than 256%, that's all people are saying!



I agree completely with everything you said.

Not because I dislike Artipia, because I don't. I actually love their games and customer service and Drum Roll and Archon are in my top 10 games. But this campaign somehow feels rushed to me and I feel like it could have been a bigger hit than it is right now.

About Stretch Goals. I don't feel entitled to SG with any KS campaign, but it IS a reason for me to back a game, if I get stuff I wouldn't get if I just waited for Retail copy. Most of the times you would be cheaper with waiting for Retail, so SG are a nice 'incentive to back', but not necessary. Regarding NEW DAWN, I don't think I've seen anyone say they should cancel the campaign because there are no Stretch Goals.
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Björn Fink
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I think a relaunch isnt possible because of Essen...as a European company it would be crazy to not launch this game as a Essen release, so the rushed it a little bit. But you have the complete Ruleset and some Reviews, gameplay videos are nice to have but not essential for me.
 
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xbjoernx wrote:
If i back a project then i back the basegame and not the stretch goals. SG are fine but i think people are taking it for granted. What did you people think about it?

I think, this depends on what the campaign does for the game. If I expect the game not to be produced at all if the campaign fails, then yes, of course I support it to get the game made. That's why I supported games like Forge War and Assault on Doomrock.

If I expect the game to produced regardless of the campaign success, I may still support it. But in this case it's all about the additional swag. For example, I don't think there is a single backer of the recent Zombicide Season or of any of the Queen Game's products who is under the impression that those games would not be made if the campaigns failed. There were campaigns that shipped a few weeks after they ended, meaning the games were already produced and sitting in a warehouse. There was a Kickstarter for a game after it had already won the SdJ award in Germany. There even is one running for the Spiel des Jahres 2003 right now.
Those campaigns have noting to do with the original intention of Kickstarter, they are purely for the additional hype and advertising effect. For that, they offer additional swag and that's what backers expect to get in those cases.
That's why I backed neither Among the Stars nor New Dawn. 14 cards are simply not enough to get me to pay a premium ($65!) for it. Like I did with Among the Stars, I expect to buy New Dawn later for 3/4 the campaign price. And only after there are some reviews available.
 
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Björn Fink
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The price is 55$ for a big boardgame with plastic, custom dices and a lot of cards...thats 41,30 Euro which is a really normal pricetag for a Boardgame this size...and Artipia is a rather small company.
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Björn Fink
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cuazzel wrote:
xbjoernx wrote:
If i back a project then i back the basegame and not the stretch goals. SG are fine but i think people are taking it for granted. What did you people think about it?

I think, this depends on what the campaign does for the game. If I expect the game not to be produced at all if the campaign fails, then yes, of course I support it to get the game made. That's why I supported games like Forge War and Assault on Doomrock.

If I expect the game to produced regardless of the campaign success, I may still support it. But in this case it's all about the additional swag.


Uhm well...if everybody thinks that way...then...ehrm...there will be no additional swag because everybody is waiting to pledge for the...aw come on.
 
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Chris Smith
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It doesn't need a relaunch obviously, as it'll get produced and if its popular then artipia can easily just run an expansion Kickstarter for more content.

I do agree that it could have gone better though, as things like the higher initial pledge levels slapped day one quite hard. That's no reason to cancel though

Does that make people crazy to ask about a relaunch? Not really, they're just a bit misled in what's good for the project, not appreciating things like Essen timing.

Really though, who cares, so long as it gets produced =-)
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Konstantinos Kokkinis
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Thank you all for posting your opinion. There are numerous reasons why we can't relaunch. For example:

1) First of all, as mentioned, there is no reason to. The project has been funded and will propably finish at a number that will make it our 2nd most successfull KS campaign to date.

2) We've scheduled some promotion (like the currently running BGG contest). Such promotion needs to be booked way ahead of time and so there is no chance we could repeat it.

3) The review videos are coming. The campaign is not over. Those who want to see review videos in order to make up their minds will still have the chance.

4) As also mentioned, Essen is near and we need to process the production right away.

Thank you


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Sebastian Zarzycki
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I think what others are trying to say, is that you shouldn't wait for reviewers. Why creating a video on your own, showing all the game components and sample play, is a problem? I feel like New Dawn is a game that is very hard to judge, just reading the rules and looking at components. I find it hard to determine the dynamics and chokepoints.

In general, I'm also disappointed with the way this is approached. Everything regarding Artipia products is placed in some kind of magical mist. One need to possess special knowledge in order to learn more about games, its components, where to order, how to order, what's in the box, etc. For example, the description for Ambassadors on your website, doesn't even state what's in the box, what's the new theme or mechanics, but boasts a redundant "flavor intro". You've made a great game, but in my honest opionion, there's still a lot of work for you with regards to communication and making your products accessible. This comes from a person who recently tried to get whole AtS set with some bonuses - and paid a hefty amount for it during the process, but the struggle wasn't a pleasant experience - and that's exactly why I'm not backing New Dawn for the time being - it's just the same thing all over again.
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J. M. Lopez-Cepero "CP"
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Much to my chagrin, I have to agree with the overall consensus that the campaign does not seem to be living to its full potential.

I think it should be kept in mind that I'm already convinced, as likely are almost all other backers. That's not really the fight. The thing is, you probably want to attract other people who are not as convinced as we are, and the current project is a bit lacking in things that could help draw people in at first sight.

What I'm getting at is: I have pledged, and I won't cancel or anything of the sort, but I'd like to be able to "sell" the game to more people on my gaming group and elsewhere, and I feel like I don't really have much to work with. Being able to point people to a graphic gallery, a review or a gameplay video would really help.

I also can't help but feel that there are several small details that seem to have been consistently overlooked. For example:

d10-1 I see the contest (good!) but you haven't mentioned it in an update or even in the comments (bad!).
d10-2 There are some art samples in the page and the updates (good!) but they haven't been uploaded to BGG to generate buzz and get them all in a centralized place (bad!).
d10-3 There's an insider review (good!) and updates about the game (good!) but they came after significant prodding from backers (bad!) and they are not linked anywhere in the main project page (bad!).
d10-4 You offered to add some new tuckboxes for free to the pack to accomodate all the game elements (good!) but haven't yet updated the graphic to reflect it (bad!).
d10-5 I understand your position on reviews - it's unfortunate, but understandable. At least you put up the "PENDING" badge (good!). But people have been clamoring for a gameplay video from Day 1, and given that it would have helped a lot in this review-less spell, I'm pretty puzzled that it hasn't been recorded yet (bad! really really bad!). I'm sure you guys are up to your neck in work, but it's just a matter of having a free evening, a decent videocamera and 4 willing playtesters. Have them explain the game as they go in Greek and then add subtitles, if it need be.

Of course, this is provided as constructive criticism - I love Artipia and have a high esteem for you as a company and for your games. I think we all share the goal of having the campaign succeed, and I think that everybody involved is pulling in the same direction.
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Paulo Renato
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andvaranaut wrote:
Much to my chagrin, I have to agree with the overall consensus that the campaign does not seem to be living to its full potential.

I think it should be kept in mind that I'm already convinced, as likely are almost all other backers. That's not really the fight. The thing is, you probably want to attract other people who are not as convinced as we are, and the current project is a bit lacking in things that could help draw people in at first sight.

What I'm getting at is: I have pledged, and I won't cancel or anything of the sort, but I'd like to be able to "sell" the game to more people on my gaming group and elsewhere, and I feel like I don't really have much to work with. Being able to point people to a graphic gallery, a review or a gameplay video would really help.

I also can't help but feel that there are several small details that seem to have been consistently overlooked. For example:

d10-1 I see the contest (good!) but you haven't mentioned it in an update or even in the comments (bad!).
d10-2 There are some art samples in the page and the updates (good!) but they haven't been uploaded to BGG to generate buzz and get them all in a centralized place (bad!).
d10-3 There's an insider review (good!) and updates about the game (good!) but they came after significant prodding from backers (bad!) and they are not linked anywhere in the main project page (bad!).
d10-4 You offered to add some new tuckboxes for free to the pack to accomodate all the game elements (good!) but haven't yet updated the graphic to reflect it (bad!).
d10-5 I understand your position on reviews - it's unfortunate, but understandable. At least you put up the "PENDING" badge (good!). But people have been clamoring for a gameplay video from Day 1, and given that it would have helped a lot in this review-less spell, I'm pretty puzzled that it hasn't been recorded yet (bad! really really bad!). I'm sure you guys are up to your neck in work, but it's just a matter of having a free evening, a decent videocamera and 4 willing playtesters. Have them explain the game as they go in Greek and then add subtitles, if it need be.

Of course, this is provided as constructive criticism - I love Artipia and have a high esteem for you as a company and for your games. I think we all share the goal of having the campaign succeed, and I think that everybody involved is pulling in the same direction.


This
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J. M. Lopez-Cepero "CP"
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A quick followup - I think that the campaign is successful as is, and I don't think that it should be relaunched (not now, at least). However, I can't help but think that a few details could have gone a long way.
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I agree with Andvaranaut's criticism. One suggestion is that when the videos are up, Artipia would mention about New Dawn campaign in their previous Kickstarters. At least, in AtS Reprint campaign. So that the update wouldn't feel "forced", share us some news about the artbook or AtS-Universe site if it finally launches this year.
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I originally backed it as an all in one for the universe, but with the rulebook, which was incomplete took days to come out. Then the updates with some of the gameplay examples was nice, but you'd hit an stretch goal, and then wait for days to see it the prices of the minis and the coins. I just finally backed out of the project. I really just want Among the Stars and the extras, but I'll just wait for it to hit the stores. I'm just not sure that it would be a game for me. With no previews or an example of gameplay, I'm just going to take a step back and maybe wait for it.

Plus, it was just strange when it seems randomly that stretch goals came out for the number of backers, when the game was starting to struggle with backers. You've had multiple negative days on KickTraq. It looks like a nice Kickstarter, but just seems ran poorly. It will be produced, just without a lot of the extras or promos.
 
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It might be that the backer count stretchgoals were a carrot to share about the knowledge of the project on social media. However, some promo video material would have been nice back then. I am getting the game now (don't know yet about the extras except sleeves). I assume the price of the game goes up in future kickstarters (at least that $80). Until Artipia Games sell the product elsewhere than on their site, they pretty much have the monopoly to determine the price tag.
 
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Muse23PT wrote:
Game Play videos are the most important thing for a KS, it's the thing that gives the backers the information they are looking for... they see the game being played and nothing is better than that (except from playing themselves) to form an educated opinion


As an avid kickstarter backer I disagree, but then again I am only speaking for myself.

I almost never look at a game review unless I am bored or need something to listen to on my drive home. I buy games based on theme, mechanics, and price.

I don't need someone else to tell me if I am going to like something, I can make up my own mind.
 
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xbjoernx wrote:
If i back a project then i back the basegame and not the stretch goals. SG are fine but i think people are taking it for granted. What did you people think about it?


I back on the basis of what I think or hope the money would be used for. I would prefer to not just be preordering a game on kickstarter. I want to fund games that otherwise wouldn't have been made. I'm also of the thought that the funds raised should all be used to create the game.

The company can make profit on the subsequent sales of the product at retail, but they should be using all the funding of the game to go toward making the game better. This is where stretch goals should, in my opinion, fit in. Money raised after the funding goal shouldn't be considered profit, it should be considered extra development capitol.
 
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Todd Degani wrote:
Muse23PT wrote:
Game Play videos are the most important thing for a KS, it's the thing that gives the backers the information they are looking for... they see the game being played and nothing is better than that (except from playing themselves) to form an educated opinion


As an avid kickstarter backer I disagree, but then again I am only speaking for myself.

I almost never look at a game review unless I am bored or need something to listen to on my drive home. I buy games based on theme, mechanics, and price.

I don't need someone else to tell me if I am going to like something, I can make up my own mind.


I don't need other people to tell me if I'm going to like... that's why I ask first for gameplay videos so I can see the game in motion and see if I like it... it's the next best thing when you can't play the game yourself...

That being said, Reviews are very informative and the more the better chance you can get some info you have missed...

Also, there are several reviewers out there and we know what kind of games they like and if we usually like the same things they do...
With this in mind it's easier to justify backing a game if I have the opinion of people I value and consider valid for me... just like when a friend of mine tells me about a game they loved and I should try...

Information can come from various sources and to me the most important ones are Game Play videos and Reviews...
if you don't need them cool for you, I like to have more information to make my decisions other than mechanics, theme and price...

A game can have the mechanics I like, can be a theme I love and a pretty good price... but if the mechanics aren't well implemented with the theme no matter what the price is, I rather have a way to get that information than have to pay to check for myself and be disappointed

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Muse23PT wrote:
if you don't need them cool for you, I like to have more information to make my decisions other than mechanics, theme and price...


That's why I said "As an avid kickstarter backer I disagree, but then again I am only speaking for myself." As opposed to your blanket statement of "Game Play videos are the most important thing for a KS, it's the thing that gives the backers the information they are looking for".

As a backer of the game myself, I would be included in your blanket statement. For me the pictures depicting the theme, the rulebook stating the mechanics, and the kickstarter showing the price fulfilled all my requirements.
 
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Paulo Renato
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Well, I guess I'm just more demanding than you...

Also taking things out of context and just quoting what you want to be quoted is not a very cool thing to do...

I didn't put a blanket to cover all opinions, I'm not a master or an overlord... In my post I mostly said, "I... I... I"

and it can be well ilustrated previous to waht you quoted and right after what you quoted:

"I was very very interested in the game but since my game collection is already bigger than it should be and the space is limited I don't back games just because they look nice anymore...
I required detailed explanations, reviews and people opinions and most of all game play videos...

Game Play videos are the most important thing for a KS, it's the thing that gives the backers the information they are looking for... they see the game being played and nothing is better than that (except from playing themselves) to form an educated opinion

Yes, I know that the rules are online, and that the updates explain how certain parts of the game play, but that's not what people are expecting... at least me..."

So, you can get off your high horse...

Pictures are enough for you? Cool... I required more than just cute pictures and knowing game mechanics... those might be things that draw my attention to the KS Project but if that's all the KS Project shows me I won't back it...

But that's me
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Gameplay videos are the most accurate way for me to know if I'm going to like a game or not. It is not guaranteed, but it's much better than a written review, even if it's an in-depth all-rules-included written article.

As all things, some would be more comfortable with a rules book or actually printing it and playing it or whatever, but I think there's a large portion of the community that'd rather have videos of some sort.

It's too bad it was too confrontational for Rahdo (that's what I heard anyway) to feature.

There's also the high contrast between Among the Stars and this project, in that Among the Stars was highly rated by pretty much every major video reviewer with links to all reviews on their front page.
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Muse23PT wrote:
Also taking things out of context and just quoting what you want to be quoted is not a very cool thing to do...


I didn't take anything out of context, in fact I quoted the entire sentence and I didn't just cherry pick part of it. I quoted that particular sentence because that was the sentence I disagreed with. You will clearly notice that I didn't try to argue any opinions of yours, just the sentence that you tried to state as a fact.

All I did was state that I have a contrary opinion.

Muse23PT wrote:
So, you can get off your high horse...

Why do you presume I am on a "high horse"? Because I have a contrary opinion to yours? I in no way argued for or against your opinion.

Muse23PT wrote:
Pictures are enough for you? Cool... I required more than just cute pictures and knowing game mechanics...

Yes, it is fine for me, thanks for giving me your approval to have my opinion though.. It is the same way I purchase a game when I see it in a retail, so yes it is enough for me.

You are the only one here who seems to have a problem with someone having a different opinion than yourself.
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okami31 wrote:
It's too bad it was too confrontational for Rahdo (that's what I heard anyway) to feature.


That's what he told me when I Geekmailed him about New Dawn.
I was so sure he was gonna review it, since he previewed it at Essen last year.
Too bad since his tastes in games and mine are almost always compatible.

However, after reading Vangelis Bagiartakis's preview, I think it's all gonna depend on the cards drawn and on the players themselves if it's gonna be an aggressive play or not.
I can live with that I guess.

I'm just very disappointed about all the "wasted" stretch goals, because there's no way, even with stellar reviews, that this project is gonna unlock all those very nice SG, a bit late for that

I'm happy for them the game is funded, I'm just an avid SG fan and this one is probably severely gonna lack in this department.

I'm still considering opting out of the KS and waiting for a hypothethical reprint (if the game ends up being high quality like AtS), which would definitely be more succesful than this one.
 
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Wraith75 wrote:
okami31 wrote:
It's too bad it was too confrontational for Rahdo (that's what I heard anyway) to feature.


That's what he told me when I Geekmailed him about New Dawn.
I was so sure he was gonna review it, since he previewed it at Essen last year.
Too bad since his tastes in games and mine are almost always compatible.



I Don't think Richard himself minds a bit of confrontation in games... I think it's mostly Jen that doesn't enjoy it at all and therefor Richard doesn't enjoy them also because he knows that Jen won't have fun playing it and he doesn't want to burn her out with games he knows she won't enjoy...

I bet if Richard had a regular gaming group he could attend we would have a run of this game because he would be able to play it with other players.

At least that's what I take from what I've seen in his videos and what he says in them
 
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