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Subject: So what is Tony Blair for? rss

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David Dearlove
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Having been paid a shedload of money by his Arab friends as middle east peace envoy TB is in London for a party celebrating his hi-jacking of the Labour party 20 years ago. So what is he for?
 
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Koldfoot wrote:
Tony Blair of the Blair Witch Project? Or the minor British politician?

I think you can do better xenophobia than that. TB was very useful as he gave massive support to some minor American president who could barely form coherent sentences and got us into two pointless wars, one of which is still killing British soldiers.
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ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
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Have you thought of sending him to investigate this?
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whac3 wrote:
Have you thought of sending him to investigate this?


What is there to investigate?
 
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mlcarter815 wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Have you thought of sending him to investigate this?


What is there to investigate?
Well, if one has no use for the man, I'm sure one could think of something.
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DavidDearlove wrote:
Having been paid a shedload of money by his Arab friends as middle east peace envoy TB is in London for a party celebrating his hi-jacking of the Labour party 20 years ago. So what is he for?

In recent years, he's become a confirmed neo-con advocate.

Ironically, it was because he fellowed the neo-con line so blindly that resulted in his getting sacked from the Prime Minister position to begin with.

 
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Of course I got "what are you for?" from an ex-marine friend of mine. It's one of those unanswerable questions that the NCOs who train recruits ask them when they look/act dumb.
 
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DavidDearlove wrote:
Of course I got "what are you for?" from an ex-marine friend of mine. It's one of those unanswerable questions that the NCOs who train recruits ask them when they look/act dumb.

and?
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ShreveportLAGamer wrote:
Ironically, it was because he fellowed the neo-con line so blindly that resulted in his getting sacked from the Prime Minister position to begin with.


You don't actually get sacked from being Prime Minister. The dynamics are much more complicated (when not using an election). But he wasn't ousted (from being leader of the Labour Party) by a challenge as Margaret Thatcher was (Conservative Party of course). And while his popularity had fallen a lot, including but not only due to Iraq in particular, he hadn't reached the impossible to continue point in that regard. The main issue was the election timing, he needed to go with enough time to allow Gordon Brown (who'd been pushing for the job for years) to get his feet under the table before fighting the election as an incumbent. He basically had to go then or thereabouts, or commit to another four or five years and I doubt he still had the will to do that, never mind whether he'd have been supported.
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James King
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Dearlove wrote:
ShreveportLAGamer wrote:
Ironically, it was because he fellowed the neo-con line so blindly that resulted in his getting sacked from the Prime Minister position to begin with.

You don't actually get sacked from being Prime Minister. The dynamics are much more complicated (when not using an election). But he wasn't ousted (from being leader of the Labour Party) by a challenge as Margaret Thatcher was (Conservative Party of course). And while his popularity had fallen a lot, including but not only due to Iraq in particular, he hadn't reached the impossible to continue point in that regard. The main issue was the election timing, he needed to go with enough time to allow Gordon Brown (who'd been pushing for the job for years) to get his feet under the table before fighting the election as an incumbent. He basically had to go then or thereabouts, or commit to another four or five years and I doubt he still had the will to do that, never mind whether he'd have been supported.

Reality Check: Although he'd been promised a fairly sizable number of oil contracts by the Bush/Cheney administration, Tony Blair got suckered and only returned with a measely handful to show for all the support that Britain had shown the war effort.

Blair's Iraqi-advocacy efforts became somewhat tainted in the fall of 2003 when photographs taken from smartphones of British troops in Iraq were posted to websites showing those troops naked and cavorting with Iraqi prisoners, thus causing Britain to experience its own Abu-Graib-like scandal which anticipated American's own nine months later. Eventualy, the sources of those posted photographs were investigated and some investigations yielded visible results.


> Excerpts from the April 30, 2004 UK Independent news story by Chris Bunting entitled:

Photos Of UK Troops Abusing Iraqi Prisoner Revealed

The Ministry of Defence was last night forced to announce an investigation after photographs showing British soldiers beating and urinating on an Iraqi prisoner were published.

The pictures, coming the day after US troops were revealed to have maltreated Iraqi detainees, show British soldiers beating the man with their rifle butts. He was reportedly arrested for theft.

Their victim is said to have been left bleeding and vomiting, with a broken jaw and smashed teeth, after an eight-hour ordeal. During it, he was apparently threatened with summary execution.

Speaking on condition of anonymity, serving soldiers told the Daily Mirror that the unnamed captive, against whom no charges were brought, was dumped from the back of a moving vehicle at the end of his torture. It is not known whether he survived.

The army's most senior officer, Chief of General Staff General Sir Michael Jackson, said last night that an investigation into the soldiers' "appalling conduct" had been ordered. A statement from Downing Street said the allegations were being treated "seriously".

The revelation that British soldiers may have been involved in torturing Iraqi detainees comes a day after the publication of a video of US troops abusing naked and hooded Iraqi prisoners. Still images taken from the video showed a hooded captive standing on a box with wires attached to his hands, and naked prisoners stacked in a human pyramid while US troops laughed....At least five cases of mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners by British soldiers are believed to have been investigated by the Royal Military Police.

Two months ago, the Ministry of Defence admitted to paying £8,100 to the families of three men who died in British custody but denied an admission that abuse had happened. The family of one of the men, Baha Dawud al-Maliki, claimed he had died due to internal injuries after his arrest by members of the Queen's Lancashire Regiment at the Ibn al-Haytham Hotel in Basra in September.

In addition to the September incident, the British Army is investigating the deaths of two men detained by the Black Watch during a search operation near Basra in May. One of the men, Abd al-Jabbar Mossa, 53, was said to have died of heart failure soon after his arrest. His family claimed he was hit on the head while being detained. The second, Rathy Namma, was said to have suffered a heart attack.

In a third incident, a trooper from the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers was alleged to have been found with photographs of an Iraqi PoW hanging from netting on a forklift truck driven by a British soldier. Other photographs show prisoners being forced to simulate sex acts.



Related Suggested Reading

Is Britain Guilty Of Systemic Torture In Iraq?
High court to hear shocking testimonies alleging sexual abuse and torture of Iraqi prisoners and their families by British armed forces between 2003 and 2008
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jan/19/britain-guilty-sys...



 
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Boaty McBoatface
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whac3 wrote:
Have you thought of sending him to investigate this?
Sadly no respecting virus would touch him.
 
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DavidDearlove wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
Tony Blair of the Blair Witch Project? Or the minor British politician?

I think you can do better xenophobia than that. TB was very useful as he gave massive support to some minor American president who could barely form coherent sentences and got us into two pointless wars, one of which is still killing British soldiers.
Or just leave Kold to think he is being clever.
 
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ShreveportLAGamer wrote:
Dearlove wrote:
ShreveportLAGamer wrote:
Ironically, it was because he fellowed the neo-con line so blindly that resulted in his getting sacked from the Prime Minister position to begin with.

You don't actually get sacked from being Prime Minister. The dynamics are much more complicated (when not using an election). But he wasn't ousted (from being leader of the Labour Party) by a challenge as Margaret Thatcher was (Conservative Party of course). And while his popularity had fallen a lot, including but not only due to Iraq in particular, he hadn't reached the impossible to continue point in that regard. The main issue was the election timing, he needed to go with enough time to allow Gordon Brown (who'd been pushing for the job for years) to get his feet under the table before fighting the election as an incumbent. He basically had to go then or thereabouts, or commit to another four or five years and I doubt he still had the will to do that, never mind whether he'd have been supported.

Reality Check:


Couldn't be bothered to do more than check that everything you say is irrelevant to what you quote.
 
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Dearlove wrote:
ShreveportLAGamer wrote:
Dearlove wrote:
ShreveportLAGamer wrote:
Ironically, it was because he fellowed the neo-con line so blindly that resulted in his getting sacked from the Prime Minister position to begin with.

You don't actually get sacked from being Prime Minister. The dynamics are much more complicated (when not using an election). But he wasn't ousted (from being leader of the Labour Party) by a challenge as Margaret Thatcher was (Conservative Party of course). And while his popularity had fallen a lot, including but not only due to Iraq in particular, he hadn't reached the impossible to continue point in that regard. The main issue was the election timing, he needed to go with enough time to allow Gordon Brown (who'd been pushing for the job for years) to get his feet under the table before fighting the election as an incumbent. He basically had to go then or thereabouts, or commit to another four or five years and I doubt he still had the will to do that, never mind whether he'd have been supported.

Reality Check: Although he'd been promised a fairly sizable number of oil contracts by the Bush/Cheney administration, Tony Blair got suckered and only returned with a measely handful to show for all the support that Britain had shown the war effort.

Blair's Iraqi-advocacy efforts became somewhat tainted in the fall of 2003 when photographs taken from smartphones of British troops in Iraq were posted to websites showing those troops naked and cavorting with Iraqi prisoners, thus causing Britain to experience its own Abu-Graib-like scandal which anticipated American's own nine months later. Eventualy, the sources of those posted photographs were investigated and some investigations yielded visible results.


> Excerpts from the April 30, 2004 UK Independent news story by Chris Bunting entitled:

Photos Of UK Troops Abusing Iraqi Prisoner Revealed

The Ministry of Defence was last night forced to announce an investigation after photographs showing British soldiers beating and urinating on an Iraqi prisoner were published.

The pictures, coming the day after US troops were revealed to have maltreated Iraqi detainees, show British soldiers beating the man with their rifle butts. He was reportedly arrested for theft.

Their victim is said to have been left bleeding and vomiting, with a broken jaw and smashed teeth, after an eight-hour ordeal. During it, he was apparently threatened with summary execution.

Speaking on condition of anonymity, serving soldiers told the Daily Mirror that the unnamed captive, against whom no charges were brought, was dumped from the back of a moving vehicle at the end of his torture. It is not known whether he survived.

The army's most senior officer, Chief of General Staff General Sir Michael Jackson, said last night that an investigation into the soldiers' "appalling conduct" had been ordered. A statement from Downing Street said the allegations were being treated "seriously".

The revelation that British soldiers may have been involved in torturing Iraqi detainees comes a day after the publication of a video of US troops abusing naked and hooded Iraqi prisoners. Still images taken from the video showed a hooded captive standing on a box with wires attached to his hands, and naked prisoners stacked in a human pyramid while US troops laughed....At least five cases of mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners by British soldiers are believed to have been investigated by the Royal Military Police.

Two months ago, the Ministry of Defence admitted to paying £8,100 to the families of three men who died in British custody but denied an admission that abuse had happened. The family of one of the men, Baha Dawud al-Maliki, claimed he had died due to internal injuries after his arrest by members of the Queen's Lancashire Regiment at the Ibn al-Haytham Hotel in Basra in September.

In addition to the September incident, the British Army is investigating the deaths of two men detained by the Black Watch during a search operation near Basra in May. One of the men, Abd al-Jabbar Mossa, 53, was said to have died of heart failure soon after his arrest. His family claimed he was hit on the head while being detained. The second, Rathy Namma, was said to have suffered a heart attack.

In a third incident, a trooper from the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers was alleged to have been found with photographs of an Iraqi PoW hanging from netting on a forklift truck driven by a British soldier. Other photographs show prisoners being forced to simulate sex acts.


Related Suggested Reading

Is Britain Guilty Of Systemic Torture In Iraq?
High court to hear shocking testimonies alleging sexual abuse and torture of Iraqi prisoners and their families by British armed forces between 2003 and 2008
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jan/19/britain-guilty-sys...

Couldn't be bothered to do more than check that everything you say is irrelevant to what you quote.

Oh, so is that the reason you purposefully left out all the content of my reply (which I've restored above and which demonstrates that you were just plain wrong)?


 
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ShreveportLAGamer wrote:
Oh, so is that the reason you purposefully left out all the content of my reply (which I've restored above and which demonstrates that you were just plain wrong)?


You really are incapable of logic argument. The point was whether Tony Blair was "sacked", and I pointed out that's not how the mechanics work. The rest is all irrelevant to that point. Which was the only one I made. Whether your tedious cut and paste is about Blair, Iraq, or whether the moon is hollow, it's not relevant to that point.
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Dearlove wrote:
ShreveportLAGamer wrote:
Oh, so is that the reason you purposefully left out all the content of my reply (which I've restored above and which demonstrates that you were just plain wrong)?

You really are incapable of logic argument.

Is *that* the best unmitigated pro-Tony Blair defense you could think of?


Dearlove wrote:
The point was whether Tony Blair was "sacked", and I pointed out that's not how the mechanics work.

In light of the point I was making (see *** below), you're asserting a fine distinction where there is no meaningful difference.


Dearlove wrote:
The rest is all irrelevant to that point.

In *your* biased opinion.

However, ***since he hadn't received anywhere remotely near all the oil contracts for Britain that he'd been promised, Tony Blair had little good news of spoils-of-war substance to offer to counter the damage done to his administration by the resulting controversies arising out of the Brits' counterpart to Abu Graib.


Dearlove wrote:
Which was the only one I made. Whether your tedious cut and paste is about Blair, Iraq, or whether the moon is hollow, it's not relevant to that point.

Your unqualified blanket ad-hominem allegation is noted.

Should we infer then that you don't consider Tony Blair today to be an advocate or endorser of U.S. neo-con foreign policy?


 
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ShreveportLAGamer wrote:
Is *that* the best unmitigated pro-Tony Blair defense you could think of?


Is there no end to your idiocy? I'm not defending Tony Blair. I'm not attacking Tony Blair. I pointed out an error in your description of how he lost office. No more, no less. So everything else you say (which I can't even be bothered to skim this time) is completely irrelevant to anything I said.
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Dearlove wrote:
ShreveportLAGamer wrote:
Is *that* the best unmitigated pro-Tony Blair defense you could think of?

Is there no end to your idiocy? I'm not defending Tony Blair. I'm not attacking Tony Blair. I pointed out an error in your description of how he lost office. No more, no less. So everything else you say (which I can't even be bothered to skim this time) is completely irrelevant to anything I said.

Which again, I reiterate, amounts to your attempting to make a fine distinction where there's no meaningful difference.

And I do understand now that while you apparently would prefer not to be perceived as a Blair apologist, in my opinion, you certainly do come off that way.


Oh well, go figure, huh?

 
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ShreveportLAGamer wrote:


Dearlove wrote:
ShreveportLAGamer wrote:
Is *that* the best unmitigated pro-Tony Blair defense you could think of?

Is there no end to your idiocy? I'm not defending Tony Blair. I'm not attacking Tony Blair. I pointed out an error in your description of how he lost office. No more, no less. So everything else you say (which I can't even be bothered to skim this time) is completely irrelevant to anything I said.

Which again, I reiterate, amounts to your attempting to make a fine distinction where there's no meaningful difference.

And I do understand now that while you apparently would prefer not to be perceived as a Blair apologist, in my opinion, you certainly do come off that way.


Oh well, go figure, huh?

When has he written anything in defense of Blair?
 
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slatersteven wrote:
When has he written anything in defense of Blair?


Quite. In fact along with most of the UK population I've got plenty of criticisms of Tony Blair. But raising that earlier would have blown a certain mind (I use the term loosely) that seems only to have managed to get to "I'm against X, someone disagreed with something I said, therefore they're for X".
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Dearlove wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
When has he written anything in defense of Blair?

Quite. In fact along with most of the UK population I've got plenty of criticisms of Tony Blair. But raising that earlier would have blown a certain mind (I use the term loosely) that seems only to have managed to get to "I'm against X, someone disagreed with something I said, therefore they're for X".

When one weighs in with an irrelevant factoid that appears to be a countpoint meant to apparently marginalize or minimize the ramifications about what another person has said on a subject, one naturally risks being interpretted as an apologist, especially when he/she disingenuously asserts fine distinctions that make no meaningful difference.

 
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ShreveportLAGamer wrote:


Dearlove wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
When has he written anything in defense of Blair?

Quite. In fact along with most of the UK population I've got plenty of criticisms of Tony Blair. But raising that earlier would have blown a certain mind (I use the term loosely) that seems only to have managed to get to "I'm against X, someone disagreed with something I said, therefore they're for X".

When one weighs in with an irrelevant factoid that appears to be a countpoint meant to apparently marginalize or minimize the ramifications about what another person has said on a subject, one naturally risks being interpretted as an apologist, especially when he/she disingenuously asserts fine distinctions that make no meaningful difference.


It's a risk when you're around. But the real mark of your failure was to persist even after the error was pointed out.
 
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Dearlove wrote:
ShreveportLAGamer wrote:
Dearlove wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
When has he written anything in defense of Blair?

Quite. In fact along with most of the UK population I've got plenty of criticisms of Tony Blair. But raising that earlier would have blown a certain mind (I use the term loosely) that seems only to have managed to get to "I'm against X, someone disagreed with something I said, therefore they're for X".

When one weighs in with an irrelevant factoid that appears to be a countpoint meant to apparently marginalize or minimize the ramifications about what another person has said on a subject, one naturally risks being interpretted as an apologist, especially when he/she disingenuously asserts fine distinctions that make no meaningful difference.

It's a risk when you're around.

Yes, because I'll call ya on it every time.

 
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ShreveportLAGamer wrote:


Dearlove wrote:
ShreveportLAGamer wrote:
Dearlove wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
When has he written anything in defense of Blair?

Quite. In fact along with most of the UK population I've got plenty of criticisms of Tony Blair. But raising that earlier would have blown a certain mind (I use the term loosely) that seems only to have managed to get to "I'm against X, someone disagreed with something I said, therefore they're for X".

When one weighs in with an irrelevant factoid that appears to be a countpoint meant to apparently marginalize or minimize the ramifications about what another person has said on a subject, one naturally risks being interpretted as an apologist, especially when he/she disingenuously asserts fine distinctions that make no meaningful difference.

It's a risk when you're around.

Yes, because I'll call ya on it every time.


So having made an error, persisted with the error when it was pointed out, you announce you're going to continue making such errors.

I think that's a deep enough hole you've dug. I'll leave you in it.
 
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Dearlove wrote:
ShreveportLAGamer wrote:
Dearlove wrote:
ShreveportLAGamer wrote:
Dearlove wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
When has he written anything in defense of Blair?

Quite. In fact along with most of the UK population I've got plenty of criticisms of Tony Blair. But raising that earlier would have blown a certain mind (I use the term loosely) that seems only to have managed to get to "I'm against X, someone disagreed with something I said, therefore they're for X".

When one weighs in with an irrelevant factoid that appears to be a countpoint meant to apparently marginalize or minimize the ramifications about what another person has said on a subject, one naturally risks being interpretted as an apologist, especially when he/she disingenuously asserts fine distinctions that make no meaningful difference.

It's a risk when you're around.

Yes, because I'll call ya on it every time.

So having made an error, persisted with the error when it was pointed out, you announce you're going to continue making such errors.

On the contrary, if you weigh in in rebuttal to a post of mine with what I perceive to be an irrelevant point that even remotely smacks of apologism, then I'll call ya on it.


Dearlove wrote:
I think that's a deep enough hole you've dug. I'll leave you in it.

Hmph! *This* from the fella who's diggin' a hole to China! laugh

 
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