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Subject: Abusing "Volley of Torpedoes"... rss

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Kenn Mikos
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So if you haven't seen it, there's a discussion over in the rules thread about the way Volley of Torpedoes works.

delta_angelfire wrote:
ex8404 wrote:
koku ryu wrote:
cguild wrote:
mugato wrote:
Can I chain multiple Volley of Torpedoes together into a chain of 3 or more torpedoes?

For example,

1. Spend your target lock for Volley of Torpedo 1 to attack target A.
2. Disable Volley of Torpedoes 2 to attack target B.
3. Disable a regular dominion torpedo to attack target A again since target A was not the target of attack #2.

You'd need 3 weapons slots, but that's possible with Cold Storage or a flagship.

Alternatively, I could be wrong in understanding "it" within the wording of Volley of Torpedoes. Is the "and make one additional attack with it" refer to shooting again with Volley or shooting with the second torpedo card that you disabled.


Volley of Torpedoes
5 Attack
Range 1-3
Cost 6
Attack: (Target Lock) Spend your target lock and discard this card to perform this attack. You may disable 1 of your other dominion Torpedo Upgrades and make one additional attack with it. You do not need to have the 2nd ship target locked or spend a 2nd target lock to make this extra attack. Both attacks must be made against different targets in your forward or rear firing arcs. This Upgrade may only be purchased for a Jem'Hadar Battle Cruiser or Battleship.
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Yes. The Volley of Torpedoes is a Dominion Torpedo Upgrade, so you could use a 2nd one as your additional attack with the first one. If you had a 3rd Volley of Torpedoes, you could use that as your additional attack with your 2nd one.

Only 1 Target Lock would be needed for all of this, but there would still need to be enough different targets in order to make it work as each Volley of Torpedoes attack requires the attacks to be made against different enemy ships.

Each of the Volley of Torpedoes Upgrades would be discarded as they were used.


Looking for official answer only, we've heard all the speculation.
Is the 'different enemy ship' have to be a new ship only to the previous volley of torpedoes, or a new ship to every prior volley? (can i chain, for example, 4 volleys at 2 ships[1 to A, 1 to B, 1 to A, 1 to B] or does it have to be 1 volley at a time to 4 ships?[1 to A, 1 to B, 1 to C, 1 to D])


That WAS the Official Answer.


Exactly. Chris did not state "a different one for each torpedo" and simply said "enough targets". Since each individual torpedo only care about "both" targets (and due to the exacting verbiage of cards in this game that refer to "both" or "second"), since it was not errata'd to be otherwise, 2 targets is sufficient. If it were meant to be against all targets, it would have stated "all your attacks must be against different targets this turn".


What is clear is that you can chain multiple copies together, but it appears from the wording on the card that you can bounce as many Volleys as you can pack on your ship between two targets (since the first ship you fired at is a different target as far as the second Volley is concerned).

People are still waiting on an official ruling and they may errata the card if that's not how they intended it to work, but assuming it does work, let's play with the idea:
Edit: Per Chris Guild's ruling in the FAQ thread, it works. You can bounce all your Volleys between two ships.

Quote:

Battle Cruiser Katyusha (Ship Pure)

Resource: Flagship Dominion (10)

2nd Division Cruiser (34)
Gul Dukat (5)
Flagship (0)
Invaluable Advice (2)
Boheeka (2)
Breen Aide (2)
Volley of Torpedoes (6)
Volley of Torpedoes (6)
Volley of Torpedoes (6)
Volley of Torpedoes (6)
Photon Torpedoes (5)
Cold Storage Units (4)
Ship SP: 78

Total Build SP: 88

Generated by STAW Builder
http://www.dracossoftware.com/STAWHome.html


That's five 5-dice attacks divided against two or more ships. The Flagship gives a free scan to trigger Breen Aide, and Dukat gets a free BS to trigger Boheeka, so each attack gets to convert two blanks to hits. Plus you can spend the Battlestations on the last one if you need to, and Invaluable Advice can give you a second BS token if you think you need it.

After you chain them all off, you still have a 5-dice primary with BS, Scan, and two blank->hit conversions.

Seems to have the potential to be nasty, as long as you have multiple targets in front of you. It'd lose most of its effectiveness against a single-ship build. Might be a nice Dual-Sphere killer, though, especially in a ship-pure environment where they don't get attack-canceling or "Locutus" shenanigans...

I'd love to try to work Remata'Klan in there, but I'm out of crew slots. I don't think gaining +2 dice per attack would be worth losing a conversion per attack, but if one of the math whizzes wants to prove me wrong, cool.

Oh, and don't bring this to your COP 2 or 3. laugh
 
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Will Sanchez
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Don't forget to combine with Thot Gor and Sakonna to make all those volleys only cost 3
 
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Quote:
but it appears from the wording on the card that you can bounce as many Volleys as you can pack on your ship between two targets (since the first ship you fired at is a different target as far as the second Volley is concerned).

People are still waiting on an official ruling and they may errata the card if that's not how they intended it to work, but assuming it does work, let's play with the idea:


There really shouldn't be any confusion based on the ruling that has all ready been made. The phrase "enough different targets" is pointless if it was supposed to mean only 2 ships (you can't even fire the 2nd volley attack without 2 targets so "enough different targets" would be superfluous).

Abusing is pretty much the right word because that's what people are desperately trying to do despite the ruling.
 
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Read the rulebook, plan for all contingencies, and…read the rulebook again.
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I never see this stuff when thumbing through the cards. At best, I figure, "It can't mean that!"

As my opponents often instruct me, "Oh, yes, it can!"

If you can find it and it's not a violation, the sweet combos can be yours.
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Kenn Mikos
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yourmonkey06 wrote:
Quote:
but it appears from the wording on the card that you can bounce as many Volleys as you can pack on your ship between two targets (since the first ship you fired at is a different target as far as the second Volley is concerned).

People are still waiting on an official ruling and they may errata the card if that's not how they intended it to work, but assuming it does work, let's play with the idea:


There really shouldn't be any confusion based on the ruling that has all ready been made. The phrase "enough different targets" is pointless if it was supposed to mean only 2 ships (you can't even fire the 2nd volley attack without 2 targets so "enough different targets" would be superfluous).

Abusing is pretty much the right word because that's what people are desperately trying to do despite the ruling.


If that's what was intended (and I think it probably was), then Mr. Guild needs to issue an errata, as was done for Barrage Of Fire. "Enough different targets" is still too vague. There are plenty of wordings on cards and rules in this game that are pointless or superfluous. What remains is the card text, and as it's written, the second Volley doesn't care what ship you fired the first one at. I wasn't intending to get into that here, though.

The funny part is that the build works almost as well even if you do need more than two targets. Against a three-ship fleet, say, you can get a 5-dice attack against all three, spend a turn to re-enable the Photons (while still getting a solid attack in), then do the same thing again.

"Abusing" in the sense I was using it is common slang in talking about constructible games, and it refers to exploring card and rules interactions that are unintended, unexpected, or non-intuitive. It's not meant as a pejorative term, and doesn't imply a desire to break any rules, thank you very much. Finding the unexpected interactions is half the fun of constructing in these types of games.
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Jason Jackowski
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Don't forget that the 2nd ship in this can be cloaked.
 
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Kenn Mikos
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csimian wrote:
Don't forget that the 2nd ship in this can be cloaked.


You're right, I had forgotten that. Score!
 
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charles skrobis
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So, I'm going to have to be the one to try to make this really dumb.

Let's add in Remata'klan, and assume you can get his ability off by being in 2 forward firing arcs.

So this is when each of those volley of torpedoes in now 7 dice each. I'll leave people to find the best attack fixers for the 5, 7 die attacks, followed by the 8 die attack from the battle cruiser torpedoes. (I'd flagship for crew, use Janeway or some other card to get 2 scan tokens and run spock with Valtane to fix every attack that turn, though this breaks some of the faction purity that the list had, so how ever you feel about it.)

Good luck with your options.
 
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Roy Tripp
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charles_skrobis wrote:
So, I'm going to have to be the one to try to make this really dumb.

Let's add in Remata'klan, and assume you can get his ability off by being in 2 forward firing arcs.

So this is when each of those volley of torpedoes in now 7 dice each. I'll leave people to find the best attack fixers for the 5, 7 die attacks, followed by the 8 die attack from the battle cruiser torpedoes. (I'd flagship for crew, use Janeway or some other card to get 2 scan tokens and run spock with Valtane to fix every attack that turn, though this breaks some of the faction purity that the list had, so how ever you feel about it.)

Good luck with your options.


Yup i ran pretty much just that only picard 1 volley a photon an energy dissipator and secondary torpedo launcher with shroud to keep reamta'klan kicking although when i played this weekend shroud ed and stl were useless.
 
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Scott Steiner
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Considering in the example he only had 6 torpedoes....

4th Division 1T 3W 2C 36
Flagship Dom free scan 1T 1W 10
Toth Gor -1sp on W 4
B'elenna Torres 1T 1W 5
Sakonna -2sp on W 1W 3
Cold Storage x3 -3T +6W 12
Volley of Torpedoes x12 36

Total Cost 106
 
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Jared Voshall
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I ran into a variant of this build during my first Collective I event over the weekend - and it completely killed my enjoyment of the entire event. The build was (as best I can remember it):

2nd Division Cruiser
Jean-Luc Picard (can switch to Dukat, but Picard really put this over the top)
Invaluable Advice
Flagship (didn't catch which one, but there are a number that work well)
Boheeka
Remata'klan
Volley of Torpedoes
Photon Torpedoes
Secondary Torpedo Launcher*
Energy Dissapator*

He may have had some other upgrades, but that was the bulk of his main ship. This went up against my 4 ship Federation Missileboat/Phaser Boost build (Yaeger and Reliant with 4 point Photons and Quantums respectively, with the Enterprise Refit and Scotty on the Sutherland giving me a 5 die and a 6 die with reroll. I had other upgrades, but these are the ones that count). He flew in, rolling 6 damage on both of my boosted Attack ships at initiative 11, followed up by a whiff on his second ship. This killed my two main attack ships in the opening round, in a situation where I could do absolutely nothing to prevent or play against it - and this was against a build that had won the first two games given some fairly poor luck with the BCT early in the game (fortunately balancing out over the rest of the game).

To me, this particular combination (Free Action/Flagship/Remata'klan/Volley of Torpedoes/Photon Torpedoes) breaks the game. Of the three games he played, the best his opponent could do was play keepaway for the full hour, still losing by points, and from what I had gathered, none of the players who went against him - either this event or the original run two weeks earlier - found any enjoyment in playing against this build. I personally found this build to be so offensive (in the way that it killed enjoyment of the game and required such little skill to win with, while allowing so few options for counter play) that I have started to consider dropping the venue from my play schedule - which is saying quite a lot given that I have been playing at every local event that I have been able to attend since the game was first released.

Let me finish out this little rant by saying that if you care about the health of the game at your local venue, don't run any variation of this build. It is the kind of build that could potentially kill the game if it becomes common (which is not hard to do, as three of the cards needed come from the same ship pack) - and this is a game that (while I feel could be better balanced overall) I want to see continue to thrive - which is exactly why this joins my Worf/N'Garen/Barrage of Fire build in the bin of builds that I will never play.
 
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Evan
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If your two main attack ships can each be destroyed by six damage, I think you have bigger problems than this combo.

As for whether you "could do absolutely nothing to prevent or play against it," I think a good place to start would be not phaser-dumping half of your shields in the opening exchange of fire with a ship that fires Volley of Torpedoes at initiative 11.
For that matter, you could have also sent in your ships one at a time. Neither Volley nor Remata'Klan would have been of any use, so you'd basically just be trading a single shot each round. Under those circumstances, it shouldn't be hard at all to take down one ship with 12 or so HP before you've lost all four of your 6-8 HP ships.

I've been thinking of VoT as the Dominion's version of Transphasics, but your Barrage of Fire comparison is extremely apt, all things considered.
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Justin Gould
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I had my doubts but once they had been settled I came up with this.

Gor Portas - 26
Worf - 4
Admiral Kirk - 8
Torres - 5
Uhura - 4 (the new one)
cold storage units - 4
cold storage units - 4
VoT - 6
VoT - 6
VoT - 6
VoT - 6
VoT - 6
VoT - 6
VoT - 6
VoT - 6
Photon Torps - 5
Fed/Ind Flagship - 10

Total - 118

4/2/5/5 ship. Free evade. Ship TL's. With each VoT a separate attack, Worf can re-roll blanks for each VoT and photon torps.

Ilia, new scotty, and Paris were all options for the second crew slot but with Kirk/Uhura putting Worf at skill level 9, it was too much to pass up.

Of course, like all torp boats, you got to get the first TL...
 
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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gotg wrote:
I had my doubts but once they had been settled I came up with this.

Gor Portas - 26
Worf - 4
Admiral Kirk - 8
Torres - 5
Uhura - 4 (the new one)
cold storage units - 4
cold storage units - 4
VoT - 6
VoT - 6
VoT - 6
VoT - 6
VoT - 6
VoT - 6
VoT - 6
VoT - 6
Photon Torps - 5
Fed/Ind Flagship - 10

Total - 118

4/2/5/5 ship. Free evade. Ship TL's. With each VoT a separate attack, Worf can re-roll blanks for each VoT and photon torps.

Ilia, new scotty, and Paris were all options for the second crew slot but with Kirk/Uhura putting Worf at skill level 9, it was too much to pass up.

Of course, like all torp boats, you got to get the first TL...


Portas can't take torpedoes. Only the big Jimmy ships.
 
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Justin Gould
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jmdt784 wrote:
gotg wrote:
I had my doubts but once they had been settled I came up with this.

Gor Portas - 26
Worf - 4
Admiral Kirk - 8
Torres - 5
Uhura - 4 (the new one)
cold storage units - 4
cold storage units - 4
VoT - 6
VoT - 6
VoT - 6
VoT - 6
VoT - 6
VoT - 6
VoT - 6
VoT - 6
Photon Torps - 5
Fed/Ind Flagship - 10

Total - 118

4/2/5/5 ship. Free evade. Ship TL's. With each VoT a separate attack, Worf can re-roll blanks for each VoT and photon torps.

Ilia, new scotty, and Paris were all options for the second crew slot but with Kirk/Uhura putting Worf at skill level 9, it was too much to pass up.

Of course, like all torp boats, you got to get the first TL...


Portas can't take torpedoes. Only the big Jimmy ships.


Ahhhhhh....I missed that part. Oh well. It was fun building. Being that is the case I would go with the battlecruiser as it is more maneuverable.
 
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Jared Voshall
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kobold47 wrote:
If your two main attack ships can each be destroyed by six damage, I think you have bigger problems than this combo.

As for whether you "could do absolutely nothing to prevent or play against it," I think a good place to start would be not phaser-dumping half of your shields in the opening exchange of fire with a ship that fires Volley of Torpedoes at initiative 11.
For that matter, you could have also sent in your ships one at a time. Neither Volley nor Remata'Klan would have been of any use, so you'd basically just be trading a single shot each round. Under those circumstances, it shouldn't be hard at all to take down one ship with 12 or so HP before you've lost all four of your 6-8 HP ships.

I've been thinking of VoT as the Dominion's version of Transphasics, but your Barrage of Fire comparison is extremely apt, all things considered.


Perhaps phaser dumping at that precise point was a mistake, but single engaging that build would have been a bigger one. Barring VoT and the Photons, I would still have been looking at an average of 8 hits against the ship that stepped forward first (he was running a 30 point Blind Pull ship along side it) - and as I was running generic captains (perhaps a mistake, but it had served me well up to that point), that would have been a dead ship with no return fire. That would not have won me the game.

Maybe I could have dashed inside the range for his torpedoes? Well, he had an Energy Dissipator, so again, dead ship. The only valid counter play I had for his ship was to stay away from it and hope the Borg could whittle it down (or at least take out Remata'Klan and Volley of Torpedoes, if not Secondary Torpedo Launchers as well) before moving in to maybe get a kill - and I refuse to play the game that way (I would find it much more frustrating than the curbstomping that I got, anyways).

For comparison, this Volley of Fire build can put out an average of nearly 14 damage across two ships, only needing two ships looking at it and being able to get a target lock - which, barring cloak, is rather easy to do considering that it's currently out of vogue and Picard moves last anyways. At 90 points, you're looking at, on average, 3 3/1/4/4 ships with some decent upgrades, which (assuming you're running Picard and Mr Spock as captains, and have the third run a Flagship) can put out under 8.5 damage on between 1-3 ships. Heck, my Barrage of Fire build is only looking at 10.3 damage for the shot - enough to guarantee a kill on all but the toughest ships in the game - and I consider that to be overpowered enough not to play to keep the tournament scene healthy.

As I said before - this build breaks the game, at least for me. When I faced it, it killed my enjoyment of the entire event, and after talking with my opponent about it (and realizing that he cared more about finding and playing these power builds than the actual health of the game or the event that he's ostensibly running), it made me seriously consider dropping the venue from my play schedule. Heck, I'm already dropping it down to half the events anyways (in part because it does conflict with other gaming obligations, but this was enough to push it over the top in order to drop it down to one event there each month). Nothing else in the game has done that thus far - not the Cloaked Mines, not Cloak in general, not the Borg, not even the monster builds that I'd seen up to that point. But this... This is enough to break the game for me. I'm only glad that the other venues I go to have enough restraint to not use such cheese, otherwise this game would lose a rather fervent supporter (which would be a true shame).
 
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Kenn Mikos
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Magius wrote:
kobold47 wrote:
If your two main attack ships can each be destroyed by six damage, I think you have bigger problems than this combo.

As for whether you "could do absolutely nothing to prevent or play against it," I think a good place to start would be not phaser-dumping half of your shields in the opening exchange of fire with a ship that fires Volley of Torpedoes at initiative 11.
For that matter, you could have also sent in your ships one at a time. Neither Volley nor Remata'Klan would have been of any use, so you'd basically just be trading a single shot each round. Under those circumstances, it shouldn't be hard at all to take down one ship with 12 or so HP before you've lost all four of your 6-8 HP ships.

I've been thinking of VoT as the Dominion's version of Transphasics, but your Barrage of Fire comparison is extremely apt, all things considered.


Perhaps phaser dumping at that precise point was a mistake, but single engaging that build would have been a bigger one. Barring VoT and the Photons, I would still have been looking at an average of 8 hits against the ship that stepped forward first (he was running a 30 point Blind Pull ship along side it) - and as I was running generic captains (perhaps a mistake, but it had served me well up to that point), that would have been a dead ship with no return fire. That would not have won me the game.

Maybe I could have dashed inside the range for his torpedoes? Well, he had an Energy Dissipator, so again, dead ship. The only valid counter play I had for his ship was to stay away from it and hope the Borg could whittle it down (or at least take out Remata'Klan and Volley of Torpedoes, if not Secondary Torpedo Launchers as well) before moving in to maybe get a kill - and I refuse to play the game that way (I would find it much more frustrating than the curbstomping that I got, anyways).

For comparison, this Volley of Fire build can put out an average of nearly 14 damage across two ships, only needing two ships looking at it and being able to get a target lock - which, barring cloak, is rather easy to do considering that it's currently out of vogue and Picard moves last anyways. At 90 points, you're looking at, on average, 3 3/1/4/4 ships with some decent upgrades, which (assuming you're running Picard and Mr Spock as captains, and have the third run a Flagship) can put out under 8.5 damage on between 1-3 ships. Heck, my Barrage of Fire build is only looking at 10.3 damage for the shot - enough to guarantee a kill on all but the toughest ships in the game - and I consider that to be overpowered enough not to play to keep the tournament scene healthy.

As I said before - this build breaks the game, at least for me. When I faced it, it killed my enjoyment of the entire event, and after talking with my opponent about it (and realizing that he cared more about finding and playing these power builds than the actual health of the game or the event that he's ostensibly running), it made me seriously consider dropping the venue from my play schedule. Heck, I'm already dropping it down to half the events anyways (in part because it does conflict with other gaming obligations, but this was enough to push it over the top in order to drop it down to one event there each month). Nothing else in the game has done that thus far - not the Cloaked Mines, not Cloak in general, not the Borg, not even the monster builds that I'd seen up to that point. But this... This is enough to break the game for me. I'm only glad that the other venues I go to have enough restraint to not use such cheese, otherwise this game would lose a rather fervent supporter (which would be a true shame).


So, any build that the fleet you're using can't deal with is cheese and breaks the game. Got it.

Seriously, the Katyusha isn't really that great of a build. Like any build that relies on Torpedoes, it's going to get torched by cloakers. It's also horrible against other Dreadnought builds and in OP2 and 3 (if there's only one valid target, that's a lot of wasted points).

Did you think about maybe splitting up your fleet so that not all of your ships were in its front arc?

Also, I don't know how it's been in your meta, but 4-ship Feds has never been very successful against anything around here. Too flimsy and not enough points left over for the all-important Fed upgrades. No offense meant to your flying skills, but I'm not convinced that's the fault of the Volleys.

And saying that there was a strategy that could have given you a chance but you "refuse to play the game that way"... Well, that was your choice, then, wasn't it? All the people at my events who chose not to play to the scenario were pretty unhappy about the Arena events too, and the trend appears to be continuing in the upcoming OP's.

All snark aside, this is how construction games work. They're like a big game of Rock, Paper, Scissors where everyone starts out playing Scissors. Then someone comes out with Rock and all the Scissors players start screaming about how Rock is ruining the game. Everyone starts playing Rock because "there's no other way to win" (where have I heard that before?). Then someone clever comes up with Paper, and all the Rock players start crying, until someone says "well, let's maybe try Scissors again." Eventually someone gets bored with RPS and invents Lizard and Spock. It just goes around and around. If losing to a fleet that yours can't counter "kills your enjoyment of the entire event", then it's possible that this type of game isn't a good fit for you. It's part of the structure of the game. (Please note, I'm not trying to be condescending here. There are tons of games in which every faction/fleet/deck/strategy has an equal chance of winning against any other. Construction games are not that type of game.)
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James Patrick
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Magius wrote:
The only valid counter play I had for his ship was to stay away from it and hope the Borg could whittle it down (or at least take out Remata'Klan and Volley of Torpedoes, if not Secondary Torpedo Launchers as well) before moving in to maybe get a kill - and I refuse to play the game that way (I would find it much more frustrating than the curbstomping that I got, anyways).


I got spanked by a Volley of Torpedoes at the last OP. I didn't like it. Not so badly that I wanted to rage quit though. If I had been smarter, I wouldn't have flown into it so confidently.

On the other hand, I took a rickety fleet of 4 ships with a total combined attack roll of 8 into the Arena OP and won. Two of my rounds were against single Borg Tactical Cube builds. How, you might ask? By running like a scared little puppy. It was actually pretty fun. I think I did a total of 8 damaged Shields in those two rounds...It really isn't as huge a blow to one's sense of fun as one might think...
 
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Kenn Mikos
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NavyLock wrote:

Wow. This is insane. I want to bring this, and I just told my buddy about it but couldn't properly explain it to him. Can someone break this down by exactly how this works (First you use Volley, disabling this and rolling X attack dice)? We're still fairly new to competitive and I want to make sure I do it right.


PM inbound.
 
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Jared Voshall
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kemikos wrote:
So, any build that the fleet you're using can't deal with is cheese and breaks the game. Got it.

Seriously, the Katyusha isn't really that great of a build. Like any build that relies on Torpedoes, it's going to get torched by cloakers. It's also horrible against other Dreadnought builds and in OP2 and 3 (if there's only one valid target, that's a lot of wasted points).

Did you think about maybe splitting up your fleet so that not all of your ships were in its front arc?

Also, I don't know how it's been in your meta, but 4-ship Feds has never been very successful against anything around here. Too flimsy and not enough points left over for the all-important Fed upgrades. No offense meant to your flying skills, but I'm not convinced that's the fault of the Volleys.

And saying that there was a strategy that could have given you a chance but you "refuse to play the game that way"... Well, that was your choice, then, wasn't it? All the people at my events who chose not to play to the scenario were pretty unhappy about the Arena events too, and the trend appears to be continuing in the upcoming OP's.

All snark aside, this is how construction games work. They're like a big game of Rock, Paper, Scissors where everyone starts out playing Scissors. Then someone comes out with Rock and all the Scissors players start screaming about how Rock is ruining the game. Everyone starts playing Rock because "there's no other way to win" (where have I heard that before?). Then someone clever comes up with Paper, and all the Rock players start crying, until someone says "well, let's maybe try Scissors again." Eventually someone gets bored with RPS and invents Lizard and Spock. It just goes around and around. If losing to a fleet that yours can't counter "kills your enjoyment of the entire event", then it's possible that this type of game isn't a good fit for you. It's part of the structure of the game. (Please note, I'm not trying to be condescending here. There are tons of games in which every faction/fleet/deck/strategy has an equal chance of winning against any other. Construction games are not that type of game.)


I understand how constructed play works. I can come up with at least three counters to this build - from the simple and straightforward to the overly cheesy. I have faced off against builds that straight up countered my builds - my beloved Miranda class Missileboats get shut down hard by Cloak or effects that drop Target Locks - which I don't have a problem with. Heck, I don't even mind when a lucky roll takes out one of my ships before it fires (though I may grouse about it at the time) because I know that's part of the game. Sometimes you get hit by that unblockable attack, sometimes you get that lucky hit that drops your opponents ship from full in one go.

The problem I have with this build is not that it can do this, it's that it can do so reliably, and has a solid Primary Weapon Attack that can go off if you can't get the Target Lock - heck, it's not even to the point where its the only ship you need take to do it, either (really, just the Battle Cruiser, Dukat, Remata'klan, VoT, and Photon Torpedoes - a grand total of 53 points). Sure, any way you cut it, it's going to be your main attack ship with that investment, but there's plenty of room to really crank up the crazyness this ship brings. In 100 points, you have enough to bring in LE Martok and Donatra on support ships, really cranking up the damage, or you can add on the Flagship to get that extra free action, or any number of other things.

And that's the problem. Once you get past the point of a single 3-4 average damage attack per ship (main line Federation ship with TL or BS), things start going out of whack. This build doesn't just give you that, it gives you two attacks at that strength - greater if you spend more points on either that ship or support ships to go with it.

Are there counters to it? Yes. A strong Permacloaked Klingon fleet might be able to deal with it (though at an average of 2.5 damage a turn, only the toughest of the ships will survive long enough to take out the main ship) or a well-run Romulan fleet could shut it down pretty fast. If you can pop into range two with a Projected Stasis Field, he's out 53-90 points (depending on how far into the build he went) for a turn, and likely the game. A single-ship megabuild (impossible with the current OP scenarios) can typically soak up the damage it brings and dish out some damage besides - but a 2-4 ship build is seriously injured if not outright devastated by this build, particularly if it goes off as planned.

I have the numbers to back up these claims. While I'm the first to admit that most Torpedoes are very much underpowered and need some loving, this - particularly in conjunction with Remata'Klan - just goes too far the other way, leaving you with a setup that is just not good for the long-term health of the game. I don't say these things lightly - in fact, you can look at my post history. This is the first case where I've stated flat out that I felt something was broken.

As for the four ship Federation build - that was very true up to this point, when the only ship you could really do that with was the Miranda Class - which is really, really squishy when it comes down to it. I know, I ran one during OP3, I believe it was (where you were beaming guys down to the planet). With the Collective and its 120 point builds, however, it is now viable as you can take a couple of beefier ships to set up the core of your build and then a couple of missile boats to provide some damage support. It gave me a solid victory in my first game and a decent victory in my second (despite the cube munching on most of my upgrades early in both games), so I know the build is viable. I was aware of its weaknesses, and of its strengths - if I could survive to fire with all upgrades active and all targets locked, I could dish out over 20 dice over the course of the turn, and could soak up a decent amount of fire to get there.
 
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kobold47 wrote:

For that matter, you could have also sent in your ships one at a time. Neither Volley nor Remata'Klan would have been of any use, so you'd basically just be trading a single shot each round. Under those circumstances, it shouldn't be hard at all to take down one ship with 12 or so HP before you've lost all four of your 6-8 HP ships.


Pretty sure that is not effective. Assuming it would take a flagship which does a boost to attack. Between Boheeka, TL and BS (and probably Scan since the flagship will probably give it one of those 3), chances are good its going to land all of those hits. Any extra damage could be polished off by the blind ship. If you send them in one at a time they'll just get picked off one at a time.

Unfortunately unlike BoF or Transphasics, Dominion torpedoes do not have a range restriction that you can try to get into for protection.

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I think a good place to start would be not phaser-dumping half of your shields


Unfortunately that statement can largely be used to invalidate the Enterprise refit as a ship completely. Might as well just say "don't use the Enterprise refit."
 
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The other way to avoid this build is throw ships at it one at a time. Seriously, it needs two ships in it's arc to pull off. You put a single ship out there and what can it do? Fire a single torpedo? Primary weapon attack for 5 damage? You run a single Borg Cube and laugh at how 75% of his weapons are useless. Or, put both ships far away from him so that he can't keep both in the forward arc. You see that at the other end of the table and you can place your fleet to avoid it.

Anyone dumb enough to charge a mini-gun head on is going to get cut down. Hit it from the sides and it falls flat.

yourmonkey06 wrote:
Pretty sure that is not effective. Assuming it would take a flagship which does a boost to attack. Between Boheeka, TL and BS (and probably Scan since the flagship will probably give it one of those 3), chances are good its going to land all of those hits. Any extra damage could be polished off by the blind ship. If you send them in one at a time they'll just get picked off one at a time.


And you can do that just as easy with Gul Dukat, Flagship, Keldon-class, and Boheeka for fewer points. People have been pulling that build for months and it costs 41 points. Plus you can toss a cloak on it and they wont get a target lock.

I'd love to see this even try to cripple a 3 vorcha build with Gowron and Martok. You can leave your blind ship to the side and pound that thing down in one round while cloaked.

All in all, it's an interesting build but it's an all-or-nothing build. It'll mop the floor with inexperienced players who charge in blindly, but it'll fall against people who know the limitations of this build. For all the damage it can toss out, it can't take much. Even with a flagship, it wont get more HP than a borg sphere (7 hull, 6 shield) and it'll cost most (if not all) your fleet. Any two moderately powerful ships can outmaneuver this thing and take it down without an issue.
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Quote:
And you can do that just as easy with Gul Dukat, Flagship, Keldon-class, and Boheeka for fewer points. People have been pulling that build for months and it costs 41 points. Plus you can toss a cloak on it and they wont get a target lock.


That's uh, not remotely the same. Ok, sure maybe it would be if you sent your ships in one at a time to get blown up -- but there's no reason to not bring in your focus fire and just take it down. Sure you'll lose something, but so will they.
 
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yourmonkey06 wrote:
Quote:
And you can do that just as easy with Gul Dukat, Flagship, Keldon-class, and Boheeka for fewer points. People have been pulling that build for months and it costs 41 points. Plus you can toss a cloak on it and they wont get a target lock.


That's uh, not remotely the same. Ok, sure maybe it would be if you sent your ships in one at a time to get blown up -- but there's no reason to not bring in your focus fire and just take it down. Sure you'll lose something, but so will they.


I also said you can bring your ships in and flank them. The battleship and battle cruiser have 90 degree arcs and no rear arc. You have the Keldon on one side and any other ship on the other, making sure that they're 120 or more degrees apart from each other (roughly the length of the range ruler). You then have TWO ships pounding at it and it can't use the volley because you can't target both in the cruiser's front arc. No second target = NO VOLLEY. Regardless of how you do it you shut down the build by giving it only one target at a time. With a 90 degree arc there's 270 degrees of open space to work with.

If you can't maneuver your ships to take advantage of the worst firing arc in the game then perhaps you should avoid the OPs.

Or just, you know, play Klingon.
 
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Griffinman01 wrote:
yourmonkey06 wrote:
Quote:
And you can do that just as easy with Gul Dukat, Flagship, Keldon-class, and Boheeka for fewer points. People have been pulling that build for months and it costs 41 points. Plus you can toss a cloak on it and they wont get a target lock.


That's uh, not remotely the same. Ok, sure maybe it would be if you sent your ships in one at a time to get blown up -- but there's no reason to not bring in your focus fire and just take it down. Sure you'll lose something, but so will they.


I also said you can bring your ships in and flank them. The battleship and battle cruiser have 90 degree arcs and no rear arc. You have the Keldon on one side and any other ship on the other, making sure that they're 120 or more degrees apart from each other (roughly the length of the range ruler). You then have TWO ships pounding at it and it can't use the volley because you can't target both in the cruiser's front arc. No second target = NO VOLLEY. Regardless of how you do it you shut down the build by giving it only one target at a time. With a 90 degree arc there's 270 degrees of open space to work with.

If you can't maneuver your ships to take advantage of the worst firing arc in the game then perhaps you should avoid the OPs.

Or just, you know, play Klingon.


It's not really that easy, you know. Sure, he's not going to get the Drop One and Cripple a Second that you have with the Romata'Klan/Volley of Fire combo - but it's still a solid ship on its own, and has a decent support ship that can throw fire as well. If you take in a double Vor'Cha or double Negh'Var build, you're still looking at about 3-4 damage per turn from this ship alone, alongside another 1-2 damage from the support ship flanking it - and that's accounting for Cloak (and with just the Battlestations action. If he takes a Scan action, particularly with the Breene Aide thrown in the mix, it just gets nastier). That's 0-2 turns for whichever ship he goes for first (probably the Gowron ship as that hurts your fleet the worst), followed by a come-about and focus fire on your second ship. Particularly on the initial joust.

The reason for this is simple: Barring terrain or other factors - which, honestly, mostly have a minimal impact - you can turn your ships to face the opponent on the lead in pretty easily - especially if neither player is rushing the other. Best case scenario, you get half your fleet on one side, half your fleet on the other, and take the shots to their rear arc while they chew apart your distraction force - and hope that they go for the ships you want to soak fire first, because if they don't, you've lost the game. And this doesn't work with the suggested Klingon build, as you need to stay close with your ships to get the skill bonuses. That said, I did list Klingons as one of the counters to this build, as they have the firepower to outdamage the main ship, while the cloak provides protection from the Torpedoes and extra damage reduction from the primary weapon.

One thing I've learned in this game is don't show the enemy your back. Once they're behind you, they have all the advantages and it can be really hard to overcome that - my most dominant victories have come from opponents trying to outflank me and letting me get in behind them instead. All in all, it's a bad idea if you're playing against anyone who is remotely good at reading where their opponent is likely to go.
 
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