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http://mobile.rawstory.com/all/2014-07-21-creationist-ken-ha...

Well there it is. We might as well dismantle NASA. It is now completely irrelevant !

 
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But if we kill NASA, then how can we call them to repentance? Don't we need missionstronauts?
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GameCrossing wrote:
But if we kill NASA, then how can we call them to repentance? Don't we need missionstronauts?


Couldn't you just baptize them remotely anyway?

*I kid, I kid*

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Darilian wrote:
GameCrossing wrote:
But if we kill NASA, then how can we call them to repentance? Don't we need missionstronauts?


Couldn't you just baptize them remotely anyway?

*I kid, I kid*

Darilian


How are we supposed to get their genealogy records just sitting around here?
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bjlillo wrote:
Ken Ham didn't say they'd go to hell.


But he did say that they can't be saved.

Quote:
“You see, the Bible makes it clear that Adam’s sin affected the whole universe. This means that any aliens would also be affected by Adam’s sin, but because they are not Adam’s descendants, they can’t have salvation,” he explained. “Jesus did not become the ‘GodKlingon’ or the ‘GodMartian’! Only descendants of Adam can be saved. God’s Son remains the ‘Godman’ as our Savior.”


If they can't achieve salvation, then where do they go?

Purgatory is a Catholic conception.

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I remember reading something Ham wrote on this subject before. He argued that the Greek word ktisis refers to "everything God has created" in Romans 8, where Paul says that "the creation (ktisis) was subjected to futility". The argument goes that any alien races would therefore be suffering as a result of Adam's sin, which they have no connection to. This is an interesting argument but not necessarily a compelling one. In the same letter, Paul says that idolators "serve the creation (ktisis again) rather then the creator." However, in that case it certainly seems like something smaller then every single piece of creation is in view. So it's a possible, but in my opinion drawn on somewhat shaky grounds.

On the fact that the atonement on Calvary only covers those of Adam's race, Ham is perfectly correct- this is why the way of salvation isn't open to fallen angels. Christ became a human because he came to die for humans, and not for anything else. To redeem Vulcans, Christ would need to become a Vulcan. Further, the church is Christ's bride and their wedding is to be consummated at his second coming; given the specific parallels to marriage the Bible draws, it would be odd indeed if more than one bride was in view here (without, obviously, getting into the more complex bits of that particular metaphor). None of that is a certain argument against sentient alien life, though (non-sentient alien life would be no problem at all), and in general I would characterize the Bible as silent on the subject.

C.S. Lewis explored possible ways in which alien life could harmonize with Christian theology in his space trilogy. It's an interesting read, and I certainly can't be dogmatic that the Bible excludes any of the possibilities it raises from happening.

As for the fact that space exploration has been used as a tool of rebellion against God, Ham is quite right. Of course it has; there is no human institution that has not. Perhaps one day an alien will show up to remind us of that fact.
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jonb wrote:
http://mobile.rawstory.com/all/2014-07-21-creationist-ken-ha...

Well there it is. We might as well dismantle NASA. It is now completely irrelevant!

In certain respects, Creationist Ken Ham's pompously dismissive notions are somewhat more palatable than those of many other more down-to-Earth fundamentalist Christian extremists who pontificate that we might as well dismantle NASA because the End Times are so nearly upon us that it's hardly worth wasting more money to fund further space missions since the fulfillment of End Times prophecy will naturally preclude us from ever getting around to moving offplanet to build bases on the Moon or Mars and and the knowledge gained from more far-flung space-probe missions will prove irrelevant to us on a post-Tribulation Earth.

 
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This story has to be a joke.
 
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twomillionbucks wrote:

As for the fact that space exploration has been used as a tool of rebellion against God, Ham is quite right. Of course it has; there is no human institution that has not. Perhaps one day an alien will show up to remind us of that fact.

What does this mean? You use the word fact when you mean "in your opinion." There are no facts in religion.
 
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And how exactly are we rebelling against God by attempting to explore space ?? If he made the entire universe, then wouldn't knowing more about it and directly experiencing more of it be a good thing. Surely your God didn't mean to create a universe so vast only to relegate us to exploring such a small part of it. That would be like him giving you a 2500 square foot room and asking that you only live and explore one square foot of it.
Your thoughts are puzzling to me.
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I think the weirdest part of this article is the idea that the space program is there to look for aliens.
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Things get weird when you define the essential nature of a universal God in terms of some stuff that happened on this particular planet 2000 years ago
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she2 wrote:
I think the weirdest part of this article is the idea that the space program is there to look for aliens.
A evolutionist who does not understand sciecne, who would have thought.
 
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jonb wrote:
Surely your God didn't mean to create a universe so vast only to relegate us to exploring such a small part of it. That would be like him giving you a 2500 square foot room and asking that you only live and explore one square foot of it.


You clearly haven't read Nietzsche.
 
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jonb wrote:
And how exactly are we rebelling against God by attempting to explore space ?? If he made the entire universe, then wouldn't knowing more about it and directly experiencing more of it be a good thing. Surely your God didn't mean to create a universe so vast only to relegate us to exploring such a small part of it. That would be like him giving you a 2500 square foot room and asking that you only live and explore one square foot of it.
Your thoughts are puzzling to me.


I didn't say that all exploration is rebellion, merely that it has been used as a tool for rebellion (by some people, if that part wasn't clear). Not all space exploration is the same. People participate for a lot of different reasons. For a lot of them, it's about wonder or curiosity or thirst for knowledge. And that's good! God gave us those things and places to use them. Science was made to explore the world for the glory of God.

But you'll also meet some people whose outlook is very different, people who are putting their hope in space exploration. Often it shows up with utopic thinking- remember how Star Trek was supposed to be about a glorious utopia of humanity in space? Not that Star Trek is bad, but there is a certain kind of thinking which views humanity's space exploration as the last and best hope of mankind. And that kind of thinking is very wrong. Any time we place our hope in anything besides Christ, we participate in rebellion against God. When we look forward to a coming utopia in space where technology solves all our future problems, forgetting that the really fundamental problem with the human race can only be solved by atoning death- then we're rebelling. The truth is not that science is bad, but that bad people do science. Space exploration is a wonderful thing, but there's no final hope in it.
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GameCrossing wrote:
But if we kill NASA, then how can we call them to repentance? Don't we need missionstronauts?


We could just save a lot of money by sending them goats. Much less training costs and safety considerations.
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she2 wrote:
I think the weirdest part of this article is the idea that the space program is there to look for aliens.


Yeah, if it was, I'd totally agree about it being a waste of money. Even though it's not, I'm still not sure it's not a waste of money.
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twomillionbucks wrote:
Not that Star Trek is bad, but there is a certain kind of thinking which views humanity's space exploration as the last and best hope of mankind. And that kind of thinking is very wrong. Any time we place our hope in anything besides Christ, we participate in rebellion against God.


This reminds me of this joke (which I have heard in several versions):

Quote:
So there's this huge flood one day, and an entire town looks like it's going to be swallowed up by the waters. And the Police and Rescue Agencies are running all over the place trying to get people to safety.

So they send the rescue boat over to this house where a guy's sitting on the roof with the water lapping around his ankles and they say "Come on, quickly, there isn't much time."

To which he says "Nah, it's ok, God will Provide."

So about an hour later they're zooming past in the boat again and they notice the guy's still there, only the water's up to his waist, almost at the top of the roof. "Quick," they say, "get in the boat, it's going to get worse before it gets better."

"Nah, don't worry - God will Provide"

An hour after that a rescue helicopter flies over the area and notices the guy, who must be standing on the peak of the roof now, with only his head and shoulders out of the water. "GRAB THE ROPE!" they cry "IT'S YOUR ONLY HOPE!"

"Don't worry" he replies calmly "God will provide."

So he gets drowned of course. And he goes to heaven, and is a little ticked off with God for drowning him like that, and expresses his concern saying "I had FAITH, I BELIEVED in you - and still you didn't help me"

"HELP YOU?!" God replies "What MORE did you want - I sent you two boats and a helicopter!"
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Golux13 wrote:
twomillionbucks wrote:
Not that Star Trek is bad, but there is a certain kind of thinking which views humanity's space exploration as the last and best hope of mankind. And that kind of thinking is very wrong. Any time we place our hope in anything besides Christ, we participate in rebellion against God.


This reminds me of this joke (which I have heard in several versions):

Quote:
So there's this huge flood one day, and an entire town looks like it's going to be swallowed up by the waters. And the Police and Rescue Agencies are running all over the place trying to get people to safety.

So they send the rescue boat over to this house where a guy's sitting on the roof with the water lapping around his ankles and they say "Come on, quickly, there isn't much time."

To which he says "Nah, it's ok, God will Provide."

So about an hour later they're zooming past in the boat again and they notice the guy's still there, only the water's up to his waist, almost at the top of the roof. "Quick," they say, "get in the boat, it's going to get worse before it gets better."

"Nah, don't worry - God will Provide"

An hour after that a rescue helicopter flies over the area and notices the guy, who must be standing on the peak of the roof now, with only his head and shoulders out of the water. "GRAB THE ROPE!" they cry "IT'S YOUR ONLY HOPE!"

"Don't worry" he replies calmly "God will provide."

So he gets drowned of course. And he goes to heaven, and is a little ticked off with God for drowning him like that, and expresses his concern saying "I had FAITH, I BELIEVED in you - and still you didn't help me"

"HELP YOU?!" God replies "What MORE did you want - I sent you two boats and a helicopter!"


This joke hits right at the heart of the matter. Sure, if you follow Jesus he is your personal, final and best hope for salvation. In the context of "go forth and multiply", exploration and expansion is imperative so that your children, their children and their children, ad nasueum, can live full lives in Christ. In the context of Christianity, God provided ALL of creation, not just this mud ball, for you to rejoice in and populate. Space exploration isn't your final hope, it set's the stage so that your children can realize their hope.

Just seperate the seeming agnosticism of Roddenberry's vision of the Federation, and imagine Christians spreading love and Christians throughout all of creation, taking the Word to all the corners of what God provided. To do otherwise is limiting humanity.
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quozl wrote:
she2 wrote:
I think the weirdest part of this article is the idea that the space program is there to look for aliens.

Yeah, if it was, I'd totally agree about it being a waste of money. Even though it's not, I'm still not sure it's not a waste of money.

At present, the primary way that the search for extraterrestrial intelligence (SETI) is being carried out is by using both radio and optical telescopes to search for signals from extraterrestrial civilizations. Although the astrobiology research at the institute may be funded by NASA, the National Science Foundation, or other grants and donations, SETI is wholly privately funded.

There is a more practical need for the governments of the world to cooperatively fund a full-fledged Spaceguard to protect the Earth from inward bound asteroids. But again, the rightwing Christian-fundamentalist extremists will sniff and say that it's a waste of money because long before such a project could get anywhere near halfway off the ground, the End Times would already have occurred and after the Tribulation, there'd be no need for such a project.

The other way we carry out the search for life-bearing planets in our Milky Way Galaxy is via long-range-exploration probes we periodically send out to map the universe and seek out potential life-bearing planets. (The fact that we seek out potential life-bearing planets itself hints at the possibility of more distant-future colonization efforts.)

The age of our Sun is similarly about 4.6 billion years. The age of the Earth is about 4.5 billion years. By comparison, the age of the Milky Way galaxy is about 12 billion years and that of the known Universe is about 13.8 billion years.

The Earth is located some 27,000 light years from the galactic core. The closer you get to the core of the Milky Way Galaxy, the older the solar systems generally are. Those surrounding the galactic core are therefore the oldest.



Since our solar system is located out in one of the outer pin-wheel-like arms of the galaxy, we're already located in the zone of the younger solar systems of the galaxy. However, our Earth is potentially at least 50,000,000 years younger than other planets of neighboring solar systems of our arm of the galaxy because some 50,000,000 years after its formation, the Earth collided with another celestial body, resulting in the formation of our Moon. So, after that massive collision which resulted in that unique setback in its development, the Earth had to reboot all over again in its formation (like going back to Square One), delaying the evolutionary formation of life on Earth by as much as another 50,000,000 years. By the same token, in our zone in the mid- to outer rim of the galaxy, there could be solar systems with planets where intelligent life may have arisen that could potentially be as much as 50,000,000 years ahead of us.

So, the possibility that one or more of advanced civilizations from our own zone of the galaxy could have made their way to our own solar system while exploring our arm of the galaxy isn't a remote one. Moreover, that one or more advanced civilizations from the far older mid-rim and even-older galactic core could have sent out such expeditions is more likely since they could easily be millions of years more advanced than any other civilizations in our outer spiral arm of the galaxy and much more than 50,000,000 years advanced than us on Earth.

The handwriting, however, is already on the proverbial wall, because there are some more recent End-Times theories that speculate that the events of the Bible's Book of Revelations will be spun into motion if/when extraterrestrials acknowledge their presence, make formal public contact with us, and then start more acknowledgingly intervening in Earth affairs in the most public of ways, aligning themselves with certain nations of the world as well and incrementally initiating a takeover via those puppet nations.

Thus far, only the Roman Catholic Church is prepared to embrace extraterrestrials as fellow sentient creations of God. However, since the Catholic Church has long been scapegoated as the originator for the future Anti-Christ, they may well also figure into some End-Times theories as Quislings of an extraterrestrial-incited Armageddon.



Other Suggested Reading

NASA lays out roadmap in the search for extra terrestrial life
http://dailydigestnews.com/2014/07/nasa-lays-out-roadmap-in-...

NASA makes bold prediction: Alien life will be found within 20 years
http://www.examiner.com/article/nasa-makes-bold-prediction-a...


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TheChin! wrote:
This joke hits right at the heart of the matter. Sure, if you follow Jesus he is your personal, final and best hope for salvation. In the context of "go forth and multiply", exploration and expansion is imperative so that your children, their children and their children, ad nasueum, can live full lives in Christ. In the context of Christianity, God provided ALL of creation, not just this mud ball, for you to rejoice in and populate. Space exploration isn't your final hope, it set's the stage so that your children can realize their hope.

Just seperate the seeming agnosticism of Roddenberry's vision of the Federation, and imagine Christians spreading love and Christians throughout all of creation, taking the Word to all the corners of what God provided. To do otherwise is limiting humanity.


There's a vast difference between using what God has given us for his glory and using what God has given up to reinforce our own attempts to deny him.
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TheChin! wrote:
GameCrossing wrote:
But if we kill NASA, then how can we call them to repentance? Don't we need missionstronauts?


We could just save a lot of money by sending them goats. Much less training costs and safety considerations.


But if we stockpile too many missionary goats before we have the technology to get them to the aliens, once the stockpile overran our means to store/feed them, wouldn't we have the problem of Missionary Space Goats: Coast To Coast?
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TheChin! wrote:
Just seperate the seeming agnosticism of Roddenberry's vision of the Federation, and imagine Christians spreading love and Christians throughout all of creation, taking the Word to all the corners of what God provided. To do otherwise is limiting humanity.

I recall a Star Trek episode where the Enterprise found a disabled Starfleet ship orbiting a planet with a society based on ancient Rome but with contemporary ~60's technology. There was a small group of "sun worshipers" who were persecuted by the pseudo-Romans and made to fight in the arena. By the end of the episode Spock was musing about the "sun worshipers" being unlike most primitive religions when Uhura interjected that they weren't worshiping the sun but rather "the Son of God".

So apparently aliens can be saved if they look like humans? That was, surprisingly, a Roddenberry co-written episode.
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twomillionbucks wrote:

There's a vast difference between using what God has given us for his glory and using what God has given up to reinforce our own attempts to deny him.


I guess, to my satisfaction, you have not made a good case that the latter is a real phenomenon. Do you think that space exploration is a plot to undermine belief in God just because we don't end every sentence about space exploration with "glory be to God"?

Plumbing and sewers weren't developed as a way to glorify God, nor a way to undermine God, yet they make all God glorifier's lives easier. They also enabled more God glorifiers to exist at one time which actually results in more glory for God. So, regardless of whether one person wants to explore space out of curiosity or to ease economic pressures, it still results in more glory for God. That is, if the God glorifiers actually participate.
 
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GameCrossing wrote:


But if we stockpile too many missionary goats before we have the technology to get them to the aliens, once the stockpile overran our means to store/feed them, wouldn't we have the problem of Missionary Space Goats: Coast To Coast?


I'm convinced, we need to change the justice system from rehabilitation to punishment... extreme punishment in kind for your 'pun'ishment.
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