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Subject: Can the Corp view untrashed cards from Keyhole before shuffling? rss

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Jake Chance

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Keyhole for reference.

And card text for the lazy:
Quote:
Make a run on R&D. If successful, instead of accessing cards, look at the top 3 cards of R&D. Trash 1 of those cards at no cost (even if it cannot normally be trashed) and the Corp shuffles R&D.


Basically I hand the Corp 2 of the 3 cards back for them to shuffle into R&D. No where does it say they can or cannot look at these cards. I would assume the Corp cannot look at these cards just as they cannot look at cards you access from R&D normally (or through RDI, Makers Eye, or Indexing).

I think it's against the spirit of the game to look at these two cards to see which cards were not worth trashing as much as the one that could be trashed. What do you think or is there an official ruling?
 
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Peter Hopkins
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I think there is a ruling on this, I'm sure I remember reading it...

My view is that you *can't* do this. Compare the text of the card to, say, Indexing; you wouldn't say that the corp could look at the 5 cards you rearranged, would you? If you *could* do it, I'm sure Keyhole would say 'reveal' in there somewhere.

Looking at the cards the runner didn't trash may give you information about what they are planning (a simple example would be if the 3 cards were a barrier, a code gate and a sentry; knowing which they trashed would give you information about which breakers they had in their grip/stack).
 
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Andrew Keddie
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The card says 'look at the top three cards'. That instruction is to the controlling player. Nowhere does it instruct the Corp to look, so no, they can't.
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Cameron McKenzie
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The important point here is that the Runner is not actually removing cards from R&D when he looks at them (physically, of course, he picks up the cards. But technically, they are still in R&D).
The rule is that Corp can't look at the cards in R&D unless a card effect allows him to. This card effect does not allow him to, so he can't.
If they had intended for the Corp to see the cards, they might have instructed the Runner to "reveal" rather than "look at" the cards.
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Dirk Meijer
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No, there's no reason to allow it.
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Jake Chance

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Thanks everyone. The consensus is "no they cannot." I'm almost certain my friend does it just to bother me but it's still information they shouldn't have access to that can be used to make better decisions.
 
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Alejandro G.
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They are about to shuffled in and you (the opponent) can cut the deck and shuffle them yourself when you are given the opportunity to do so.

So I personally do not see a problem with it. It's no different than if you play The Maker's Eye and I pop Jackson Howard before you access to shuffle 3 cards in and I look at the top 3 cards of R&D to see what you would have drawn.
 
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Ben Finkel
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xpiredsodapop wrote:
They are about to shuffled in and you (the opponent) can cut the deck and shuffle them yourself when you are given the opportunity to do so.

So I personally do not see a problem with it. It's no different than if you play The Maker's Eye and I pop Jackson Howard before you access to shuffle 3 cards in and I look at the top 3 cards of R&D to see what you would have drawn.


The Corp knowing what the other two cards are means they get to see why you trashed the card you trashed. That might give them some information - like if you trash a particular piece of ICE instead of another one, that tells the corp that your deck or hand is better suited for dealing with the piece of ICE you shuffled back in.
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The cards should go back on the top of R&D unseen by the corp, then the shuffling should occur. Nowhere does it state to reveal the unselected cards.
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Cameron McKenzie
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xpiredsodapop wrote:
They are about to shuffled in and you (the opponent) can cut the deck and shuffle them yourself when you are given the opportunity to do so.

So I personally do not see a problem with it. It's no different than if you play The Maker's Eye and I pop Jackson Howard before you access to shuffle 3 cards in and I look at the top 3 cards of R&D to see what you would have drawn.


There is a difference - the things the Runner sees may give him insight into certain facets of the Corp's strategy, which may change how the Runner plays. If the information is going to affect how the Runner plays, then it can easily be of interest to the Corp.

It's meta-information. It may not have an immediate impact on the game, but it can certainly affect how people make decisions. You aren't allowed to know everything your opponent knows.
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Damien M
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MasterDinadan wrote:
There is a difference - the things the Runner sees may give him insight into certain facets of the Corp's strategy, which may change how the Runner plays. If the information is going to affect how the Runner plays, then it can easily be of interest to the Corp.

It's meta-information. It may not have an immediate impact on the game, but it can certainly affect how people make decisions. You aren't allowed to know everything your opponent knows.


For example:

The runner sees: Scorched Earth, Hunter, and Hedge Fund. They choose to trash Hedge Fund.

If the corp was allowed to look at the two cards they did not trash (Scorched Earth and Hunter), that would imply that the runner doesn't care about taking tags or meat damage (maybe they're running a resource-less deck and has a Plascrete Carapace in hand.) Which in turn would allow the corp to shift your game plan around that.
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Jake Chance

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It's bordering on pedantic and while I'd like it to not be necessary, the next FAQ should just have one line added:

Quote:
Neither player is allowed to look at any deck before or after shuffling.
 
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Richard Linnell
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Another vote for not allowing the corp to see the cards. First and foremost, there's no ability that allows them to referenced on any of the cards. Secondly, knowing what the opponent knows about your deck can definitely give you a leg up - suddenly that splashed Snare, Scorched Earth or Rototurret is much less likely to be effective - and if you know that they know, you will plan on it being less effective, removing the runner's advantage.
 
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Evgeny Reznikov
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Since no one seems to think the Corp should see the cards, I have a question - what's the reasoning that allows the Corp to do so?
 
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Cameron McKenzie
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azuredarkness wrote:
Since no one seems to think the Corp should see the cards, I have a question - what's the reasoning that allows the Corp to do so?


I saw two reasonings:
A. The card doesn't say that the Corp can't do it (but this isn't a valid argument. Cards only do the things they say they do, and you don't have the right to look at R&D cards normally, only through the effect of cards)
B. The Corp doesn't gain any benefit from looking since it gets shuffled (but, it is clearly a benefit as he knows more about what the runner knows)


The situation is 100% clear... There should not be any ambiguity.
 
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Jake Chance

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azuredarkness wrote:
Since no one seems to think the Corp should see the cards, I have a question - what's the reasoning that allows the Corp to do so?


I think my friend is mostly doing it to troll me but his reasoning is that he's shuffling the deck anyway so he can look through it.
 
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Cameron McKenzie
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It sounds like he may not even realize why knowing what the runner saw could be helpful, and thinks that you are being too uptight about a technicality that, in his mind, doesn't matter.
If you can point out why it matters, hopefully he will understand.
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Jacob Morris
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MasterDinadan wrote:
It sounds like he may not even realize why knowing what the runner saw could be helpful, and thinks that you are being too uptight about a technicality that, in his mind, doesn't matter.
If you can point out why it matters, hopefully he will understand.


And become a better player from it
 
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John Fanjoy
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I could have sworn I had previously seen an official ruling that the corp could look at the contents of R&D while shuffling R&D, but if no one has referenced it by now, maybe I made it up.
 
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