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Marvel Dice Masters: Avengers vs. X-Men» Forums » General

Subject: I Hate the KO Rule! rss

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Pablo laFrossia
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I'm trying to love this game but I can't get over the KO rules. Maybe MTG has spoiled me or I've yet to see the strategy, but I can't understand how you work so hard in getting rid of an opponent's character only for it to come back next turn AND giving your opponent an opportunity to roll more dice!!!

Please help me to "see the light" on why this is a good game mechanic.
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James Williams
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It's like they got knocked down..then they get up again. You ain't never gonna keep them down.

Unless they roll energy.
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Steve Cates
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pjrake wrote:


Please help me to "see the light" on why this is a good game mechanic.

1. When YOUR characters are knocked out YOU get to roll more dice too.

2. Win strategies are building a critical mass (among others like direct damage) and blowing out your opponent. Utilizing assassin's like punished mcrook and Hawkeye longbow allow you to knock out characters and sneak in the damage, but there's a cost, if you don't win your opponent can come back stronger.

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Justin Wertz
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pjrake wrote:
I'm trying to love this game but I can't get over the KO rules. Maybe MTG has spoiled me or I've yet to see the strategy, but I can't understand how you work so hard in getting rid of an opponent's character only for it to come back next turn AND giving your opponent an opportunity to roll more dice!!!

Please help me to "see the light" on why this is a good game mechanic.


Amazing how, after several weeks of playing, a thread pops up to let me know we've been playing wrong all along.

We've been putting KO'ed dice into the used pile, rather than prep. Oops.
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Aaron Edwards
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weezknight wrote:
pjrake wrote:
I'm trying to love this game but I can't get over the KO rules. Maybe MTG has spoiled me or I've yet to see the strategy, but I can't understand how you work so hard in getting rid of an opponent's character only for it to come back next turn AND giving your opponent an opportunity to roll more dice!!!

Please help me to "see the light" on why this is a good game mechanic.


Amazing how, after several weeks of playing, a thread pops up to let me know we've been playing wrong all along.

We've been putting KO'ed dice into the used pile, rather than prep. Oops.
Hah. Yea, I've been playing wrong too. It seems to work perfectly fine to just discard KO'ed dice. I'm not sure I'm going to like playing the right way now.
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Jason Nopa
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It's a difficult mechanic...but it's part of how you build up enough energy for the very high cost cards. That's all there is to it (rather than drawing 4 character dice and trying to roll 2 energy on them all to get 8 cost dice).
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doctor poo wrote:
It's like they got knocked down..then they get up again. You ain't never gonna keep them down.

Unless they roll energy.


Chumbawumba. It's the soundtrack of my life man!
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Smat Denley
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One of the designers, Mike Elliot, made a blog post about the game that explained it. Below is the portion of the blog where he talks about it. The whole blog is a good read as well: http://boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/30410/designer-diary-dice-...

"One of the things I always try to push in games is a catch-up feature. While I was working with WizKids when they were in Seattle in 2007, I worked on a couple of miniatures games in which I added features that let you catch up when you were starting to lose. One of the projects was a game called HeroClix Alpha, which I worked on with designer Seth Johnson. One of the goals of the game was to make a version that was easy for beginning players to learn to play, and we stripped out quite a few of the rules, including the tokens and the pushing mechanisms. The game had a reinforcement mechanism in which if you lost a figure, you got to bring in an even better figure from your starting area. This avoided one of the issues I felt existed with many miniatures games, namely a player who starts losing heads toward a slow spiraling death until the game ends. I learned, however, that for HeroClix, the players were very happy with the original rule system, so HeroClix Alpha faded away into the night with no heroes to save it.

I did a similar type of catch-up feature for Halo ActionClix, which also failed to get any real traction. (Some people had reservations about paying $250 for a single mini. These days, the Scarab would be a Kickstarter project and would probably have done fine.)

Undaunted by the lack of success on these previous projects, the idea of having your characters in Dice Masters go to the prep area, where they get rerolled during the next roll, serves as both a catch-up feature and encourages players to attack and block as it decreases the downside of making a bad attacking or blocking decision. This in turn helps to eliminate stalemates and makes Dice Masters a more dynamic game."
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Aaron Edwards
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That's an interesting explanation. Not sure I like the "decreases the downside of making a bad attacking or blocking decision" part. I want games to punish me for making crap decisions. Plus it seems like that would lead more toward causing stalemates, and not less. But he designed and tested it, so I'll just assume he knows what he's talking about better than I do.
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Smat Denley
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You can't think of it as magic with dice. It has different mechanics and strategies. You have to use the KO->Prep mechanic to your advantage, when blocking especially, and you have to think about what you may be allowing your opponent to roll next turn when you attack.

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Smat Denley
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Oph1d1an wrote:
That's an interesting explanation. Not sure I like the "decreases the downside of making a bad attacking or blocking decision" part. I want games to punish me for making crap decisions. Plus it seems like that would lead more toward causing stalemates, and not less. But he designed and tested it, so I'll just assume he knows what he's talking about better than I do.


There are still attacking and blocking decisions that are better options. So if you don't choose the best one you are not maximizing your opportunities. But if you make the wrong decision it won't automatically lose the game for you. Helps with analysis paralysis because you aren't worried about making a big mistake.
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C. E. Freeman
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pjrake wrote:
I'm trying to love this game but I can't get over the KO rules. Maybe MTG has spoiled me or I've yet to see the strategy, but I can't understand how you work so hard in getting rid of an opponent's character only for it to come back next turn AND giving your opponent an opportunity to roll more dice!!!

Please help me to "see the light" on why this is a good game mechanic.


It is one of my favorite game mechanics in MDM. It forced me out of my comfort zone and made me rethink my strategies. Since it works well in game as far as I'm concerned this is a huge plus.
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Andy Lindstrom
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It's funny, but I posted a possible rule revision thread related to this very same topic a bit back. It had mixed response, but since I posted that thread, I finally received my pre-order of a gravity feed that facilitated my ability to build different and better teams. I got most of what I would consider "the best" in the gravity feed, so I was able to build a more balanced group of cards/dice. And I didn't mind the mechanic as much.

A few observations:

1) People can build teams that dissuade the opponent attacking pretty significantly. My first experiences with the game were playing this type of team. This type of team can cause a board-stall unless it's against teams with lots of "on attack" or "on field" direct damage effects. If you play this type of team, it can feel cheap that the opponent's KO'ed character can "come right back."

2) Either player can drive flow a little bit, but there are certain characters that override flow. We all know them, but Tsarina, Gobby, Johnny Storm all drive the game along and break board stalls. Gobby and Torch: Johnny Storm can be more grindy and board stally, but only because at least one of your characters is not fully on attack. In the gobby approach, your sidekicks sit. In the Johnny Storm approach, your Johnny Storm sits. But in both approaches, all the rest of your guys (other than typically beast and sidekicks) are attacking. But any of those strategies more effectively use the "KO'ed to prep" mechanic more effectively. Because of that, I think they can safely be defined as "some of the best if not the best"... As we all know.

3) I think they should still make a card/die with the global and/or the ability "KO'ed dice go to used." I think that could help some more controlly builds that are currently suffering against direct damage.

I have a few more thoughts, but I think this is already tldr.
 
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Dr Who
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lindstad wrote:

3) I think they should still make a card/die with the global and/or the ability "KO'ed dice go to used." I think that could help some more controlly builds that are currently suffering against direct damage.


Yeah, they kinda have that, it's one of the Storm cards. But you have to re-roll, a non character on reroll goes to Used.

 
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Andy Lindstrom
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Storm: African Priestess is kind of close, but I don't think it's the paper to the rock yet. Storm:AP's on field ability is still roughly a 50/50 chance of nothing happening or even helping your opponent (But yes, the other 50% chance is a very solid effect.). And against the most oppressive of aggressive builds, it often has no viable targets, as there are very few of the opponent's character dice on field.

I think the biggest issue with these types of dice (at least currently) is that the trigger tends to run counter to what that build wants to do. In order to retrigger the ability (of storm), you have to attack with your somewhat weak attacker, and the opponent probably just takes the damage and sends them back to used.

On the other hand, most of the direct damage (on field or attack) dice/cards fall right in line with what that build needs to do, and the opponent has to either take combat damage to get rid of them (to used) for a few turns or block and KO and hope for bad rolls on the next turn.

I still like the game, but I think there's still just some pretty big balance issues and some abilities that don't fit what the controlly build would want to do. There's a few pocket cards that do other things that could be a viable counter (Prof X and Loki: Gem Keeper), but their energy costs tend to be comparatively too high.
 
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lindstad wrote:
Storm: African Priestess

somewhat weak attacker, and the opponent probably just takes the damage and sends them back to used.



or you use a global to pull her back from the attack

 
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Andy Lindstrom
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Her trigger is "when fielded" so that's ultimately detrimental to your goal of re-rolling opponent's dice as well.
 
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lindstad wrote:
Her trigger is "when fielded" so that's ultimately detrimental to your goal of re-rolling opponent's dice as well.


yes. and so is rolling the right dice combos

part of the game
 
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Zach Tedford
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In my opinion it adds an extra level of depth that Magic does not have. You have to think about the consequences of say attacking with all of your characters. What happens if that is not enough damage to kill someone so they let it go unblocked and then turn around and swing through with 5 or 6 characters of their own to finish you off.

It makes knowing when to attack and when to not much more important. Also makes you think about different situations when building your cards/dice.
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Andy Lindstrom
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Zach, I agree with you in most respects, but that type of decision is pretty relevant in Magic as well. I find the combat piece of MTG and AvX pretty similar. If you tap out in MTG, you will suffer a pretty similar crack-back, and similar board stalls to "wide" armies can occur there as well. The main difference is that board wipes and spot removal are more fairly costed in MTG.

I'm honestly not trying to be incredibly contrary to anyone in particular, but I'm just pointing out what I feel is a flaw in this current iteration of the game, which is that direct damage tends to be the most consistent way to win the game, and there are not really enough effective counters. I have heard Silver Surfer global into Loki can do it, but I haven't played against it enough to see how repeatable it is. Beast is probably the most consistent counter that I'm aware of but he's not a win-condition. Where do people that play beast go from there? Hulk with a few other heavy hitters maybe? I think that might be the closest potential.

This is a little bit off-base from the origin of the thread, but I honestly feel it's pretty related.
 
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lindstad wrote:

I'm honestly not trying to be incredibly contrary to anyone in particular, but I'm just pointing out what I feel is a flaw in this current iteration of the game, which is that direct damage tends to be the most consistent way to win the game, and there are not really enough effective counters. I have heard Silver Surfer global into Loki can do it, but I haven't played against it enough to see how repeatable it is. Beast is probably the most consistent counter that I'm aware of but he's not a win-condition.



Beast does nothing against direct damage, you do direct damage to avoid Beast.

Maybe WK should have made a game were absolutely no damage occurs?

 
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Andy Lindstrom
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I think most people agree that the best games allow for multiple paths/strategies to victory and that any particular path should allow for a counter available to an opponent.

I'm just looking for what that is, not smart-alek answers.

Beast does do something against direct damage (or at least Tsarina specifically), he allows for:

1) In the instance of 666, the player to draw more dice, cull dice from bag, and fairly easily reenter field to block again. For a long-term strategy, it is still somewhat dependent on rolling 5's or 6's on the beast dice. But it's good.

2) In the instance of Genetic Expert, you do direct damage and also gain life. It's a pretty solid counter, but again, it's somewhat dependent on 5's or 6's to be long-term. But again, it's very good.

Again, my question is, where does the game go from there. What is next for the beast player? For the Tsarina player, the "What's next" tends to be Johnny Storm.

I think the key to Tsarina and Johnny Storm is that it doesn't really matter which die face comes up, they are all fine. And the reason Beast is so good (and also hulk) is that they spin down to their best faces.
 
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Direct Damage is the ability to cause damage without presenting Attackers in the Attack Phase. So how can Beast be used? He can't.

Tsrania as well can't stop Direct Damage either.

How exactly do your figure this?

I have already given out counters to direct damage.
Not to mention forcing a die to attack, by using a global.

I think you just don't want to view these counters andy.

 
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Andy Lindstrom
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Maybe we differ on our definition of direct damage. My definition was that direct damage was any damage that could be done to an opponent without actually attacking and going unblocked (or partially blocked). The main sources of this type of damage are Tsarina, Gobby, Johnny Storm. Gobby and Johnny Storm mostly fits your definition but even they require some attackers for long-term effectiveness (since they are both dependent on "on field" damage). And that's where beast comes in, to make that attack more costly.

Which cards were you thinking of as the "direct damage" cards?

 
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Andy Lindstrom
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To start over a bit, what I'm ultimately looking for is either something that I could put across the table from a Tsarina/Johnny Storm (and whatever) pile and effectively win or something that I could supplement my Tsarina/Johnny Storm pile with to counter that line. I find that the mirror match comes down to who goes first and who rolls better.

Could get dull after a bit.
 
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