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Subject: Kingmaker? rss

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Rob McFadden

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So, I've only played Kemet 3 times so far; once with 5 players, twice with 3. Both games to 8 points. In every single game, the end came down to a situation where one player could decide the winner by what they did on their last action. Is this just how the game is, or is it something about odd player counts, or an 8 point game? Or maybe it's just because we're all new to the game so we aren't taking "strong" opening moves, so the end game ends up very tight?

Curious about others' experiences with this!

Thanks,
Rob
 
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Doug Bey
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I can see how this could happen, but I'm surprised you've encountered this consistently.

I've played about a dozen games, and have yet to run into a "kingmaker ending". We've had a lot of close finishes, but never one where one player determined in the last minute who would win and who would lose.
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Terence Lee
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I could see this happening too. I've only played this twice, but both times, one player could have easily allowed someone to win if he didn't stop him.
 
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Andy Day

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Robandstuff wrote:
So, I've only played Kemet 3 times so far; once with 5 players, twice with 3. Both games to 8 points. In every single game, the end came down to a situation where one player could decide the winner by what they did on their last action. Is this just how the game is, or is it something about odd player counts, or an 8 point game? Or maybe it's just because we're all new to the game so we aren't taking "strong" opening moves, so the end game ends up very tight?

Curious about others' experiences with this!

Thanks,
Rob

This is a problem that is not unique to Kemet. It exists in pretty much any free-for-all style game, whether it be Kemet, Settlers of Catan, Pirate's Cove, or even Revolution.

If anything, I think it's been LESS of a problem for my group with respect to Kemet, but YMMV.
 
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Gordon Watson
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Played 8 times with all but one game being to 10 pts - I think in two of those games the player going last, on what ended up being the final turn, could take actions that would determine which other player won.

Difficult to see how this can be avoided completely in multi-player conflict games. Kemet may be slightly more prone to it as in the later turns of the game going last is a bit of an advantage and as the turn order is determined by the player who is in last place the previous turn there may be a greater chance that the player going last on the final turn will still not be in contention to won themselves but have a choice as to who to attack.

As long as a player in this position is motivated by trying to maximise their own points/position in the game in terms of who they attack it's not a real problem.
 
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Zach Tedford
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I have played several games and have had this same problem. One thing that seems to help is making it a 10 VP game instead of 8.
 
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Andy Day

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Going last is more than a bit of an advantage. going last = victory in 8 out of the 10 games of Kemet I've played, and would've been 9 out of 10 if I'd been more observant. If anything, THAT is the problem with Kemet, not kingmaking.
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Felix Lastname
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Gylthinel wrote:
Going last is more than a bit of an advantage. going last = victory in 8 out of the 10 games of Kemet I've played, and would've been 9 out of 10 if I'd been more observant. If anything, THAT is the problem with Kemet, not kingmaking.


Well, it's pretty much either/or - you come up from behind and win when nobody has another turn to stop you, or somebody gets the fab choice of whom (not) to attack.
That's precisely my expericen with 10 VP; of course, in a five-player game, there will be 1 or 2 people who are really in a bad position to win when the endgame rolls in, but there is this one magical turn where somebody will win. And if you are not it, you either do nothing (skewing the game) or you do choose a move that will hurt one of the contenders (skewing the game).
After a frenetic and intense time with the game, we play very little of it these days.
 
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Andy Day

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Againsto wrote:
Gylthinel wrote:
Going last is more than a bit of an advantage. going last = victory in 8 out of the 10 games of Kemet I've played, and would've been 9 out of 10 if I'd been more observant. If anything, THAT is the problem with Kemet, not kingmaking.


Well, it's pretty much either/or - you come up from behind and win when nobody has another turn to stop you, or somebody gets the fab choice of whom (not) to attack.
That's precisely my expericen with 10 VP; of course, in a five-player game, there will be 1 or 2 people who are really in a bad position to win when the endgame rolls in, but there is this one magical turn where somebody will win. And if you are not it, you either do nothing (skewing the game) or you do choose a move that will hurt one of the contenders (skewing the game).
After a frenetic and intense time with the game, we play very little of it these days.

Here's what happens neigh 100% of the time. Last player bounces around dropping troops off in un-defended pyramids and temples. He gets several VP not from battle, but from taking territory without fear of retribution.

But you're right about the king-making. IMO, I think a potential king-maker should do nothing, and let the other contenders stand on their own merit. But that's just me.
 
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Rob McFadden

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Gylthinel wrote:
Againsto wrote:
Gylthinel wrote:
Going last is more than a bit of an advantage. going last = victory in 8 out of the 10 games of Kemet I've played, and would've been 9 out of 10 if I'd been more observant. If anything, THAT is the problem with Kemet, not kingmaking.


Well, it's pretty much either/or - you come up from behind and win when nobody has another turn to stop you, or somebody gets the fab choice of whom (not) to attack.
That's precisely my expericen with 10 VP; of course, in a five-player game, there will be 1 or 2 people who are really in a bad position to win when the endgame rolls in, but there is this one magical turn where somebody will win. And if you are not it, you either do nothing (skewing the game) or you do choose a move that will hurt one of the contenders (skewing the game).
After a frenetic and intense time with the game, we play very little of it these days.

Here's what happens neigh 100% of the time. Last player bounces around dropping troops off in un-defended pyramids and temples. He gets several VP not from battle, but from taking territory without fear of retribution.

But you're right about the king-making. IMO, I think a potential king-maker should do nothing, and let the other contenders stand on their own merit. But that's just me.


Ya, we've typically just let the person who would win if the last player didn't do anything win, unless there's a chance that doing something that would change the outcome could lead to the third player winning. That was a confusing sentence, but I'm tired and I can't think of a better way to phrase it.
 
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Andy Day

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Robandstuff wrote:
Gylthinel wrote:
Againsto wrote:
Gylthinel wrote:
Going last is more than a bit of an advantage. going last = victory in 8 out of the 10 games of Kemet I've played, and would've been 9 out of 10 if I'd been more observant. If anything, THAT is the problem with Kemet, not kingmaking.


Well, it's pretty much either/or - you come up from behind and win when nobody has another turn to stop you, or somebody gets the fab choice of whom (not) to attack.
That's precisely my expericen with 10 VP; of course, in a five-player game, there will be 1 or 2 people who are really in a bad position to win when the endgame rolls in, but there is this one magical turn where somebody will win. And if you are not it, you either do nothing (skewing the game) or you do choose a move that will hurt one of the contenders (skewing the game).
After a frenetic and intense time with the game, we play very little of it these days.

Here's what happens neigh 100% of the time. Last player bounces around dropping troops off in un-defended pyramids and temples. He gets several VP not from battle, but from taking territory without fear of retribution.

But you're right about the king-making. IMO, I think a potential king-maker should do nothing, and let the other contenders stand on their own merit. But that's just me.


Ya, we've typically just let the person who would win if the last player didn't do anything win, unless there's a chance that doing something that would change the outcome could lead to the third player winning. That was a confusing sentence, but I'm tired and I can't think of a better way to phrase it.

That's basically what I said.
 
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John Momberg

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Just finished my first five-player game. I was last in VP (of course) going into what would obviously be the last round, and I was besieged by other players frantically pleading their case for the turn order. Then, having picked myself to go last, I was in the same situation you all have described: being forced to decide which of three other players would win. It was the only part of the game that wasn't fun for me.

In retrospect, I wondered: Would this problem be at least partially alleviated by a house rule stating that the game ended as soon as a player reached the designated number of VP, rather than waiting till the end of the day phase?

As I said, I've only played the game once; I'm just throwing the idea out there...
 
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Rob McFadden

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chicoruiz wrote:
Just finished my first five-player game. I was last in VP (of course) going into what would obviously be the last round, and I was besieged by other players frantically pleading their case for the turn order. Then, having picked myself to go last, I was in the same situation you all have described: being forced to decide which of three other players would win. It was the only part of the game that wasn't fun for me.

In retrospect, I wondered: Would this problem be at least partially alleviated by a house rule stating that the game ended as soon as a player reached the designated number of VP, rather than waiting till the end of the day phase?

As I said, I've only played the game once; I'm just throwing the idea out there...


It might help, but I think that it would come down to deciding who wins by choosing who goes first in the final round, rather than last? I feel like maybe turn order should be determined by order of VPs, and even that is only a partial solution (last player player would still be last deciding who wins in close games).
 
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