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This game will be Avalon, with Merlin, Percival, Morgana and Assassin, plus two Lovers. Sign up below.
 
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Re: PBF #156: Avalon is for Lovers
M1.1: Tuism: Tuism/Luds/VikingJ

Tuism - NO
SailingChris - NO
absnook - NO
GordoMG - YES
jafm - NO
roffster - YES
aam01 - NO
VikingJ - YES
Luds - YES

M1.2: SailingChris: SailingChris/Luds/VikingJ

Tuism - NO
SailingChris - NO
absnook - NO
GordoMG - YES
jafm - NO
roffster - NO
aam01 - NO
VikingJ - NO
Luds - YES

M1.3: absnook: absnook/aam01/Tuism

Tuism - YES
SailingChris - NO
absnook - YES
GordoMG - YES
jafm - NO
roffster - NO
aam01 - YES
VikingJ - YES
Luds - NO

M1: PASS, PASS, FAIL

M2.1: GordoMG: GordoMG/SailingChris/jafm/Luds

Tuism - NO
SailingChris - YES
absnook - NO
GordoMG - YES
jafm - YES
roffster - NO
aam01 - NO
VikingJ - NO
Luds - YES

M2.2: jafm: absnook/aam01/Luds/jafm

Tuism - NO
SailingChris - NO
absnook - NO
GordoMG - YES
jafm - YES
roffster - NO
aam01 - NO
VikingJ - NO
Luds - NO

M2.3: roffster: absnook/roffster/SailingChris/VikingJ

Tuism - NO
SailingChris - YES
absnook - YES
GordoMG - NO
jafm - NO
roffster - YES
aam01 - NO
VikingJ - NO
Luds - NO

M2.4: aam01: aam01/jafm/Luds/SailingChris

Tuism - NO
SailingChris - NO
absnook - NO
GordoMG - YES
jafm - YES
roffster - NO
aam01 - YES
VikingJ - NO
Luds - YES

M2.5: VikingJ: VikingJ, SailingChris, Tuism, Roffster

M2: PASS, PASS, PASS, FAIL

M3.1: Luds: Luds/SailingChris/GordoMG/jafm

Tuism - YES
SailingChris - YES
absnook - NO
GordoMG - YES
jafm - YES
roffster - NO
aam01 - YES
VikingJ - NO
Luds - YES

M3: PASS, PASS, PASS, PASS

M4.1: Tuism: Tuism/aam01/VikingJ/jafm/SailingChris

Tuism - YES
SailingChris - NO
absnook - NO
GordoMG - NO
jafm - YES
roffster - NO
aam01 - NO
VikingJ - YES
Luds - NO

M4.2: SailingChris: Luds/SailingChris/GordoMG/jafm/aam01

Tuism - YES
SailingChris - NO
absnook - YES
GordoMG - YES
jafm - NO
roffster - YES
aam01 - YES
VikingJ - YES
Luds - YES

M4: PASS, PASS, PASS, PASS, PASS

M5.1: absnook: aam01/SailingChris/Luds/jafm/GordoMG

Tuism - NO
SailingChris - NO
absnook - YES
GordoMG - YES
jafm - NO
roffster - NO
aam01 - NO
VikingJ - NO
Luds - NO

M5.2: GordoMG: aam01/SailingChris/Luds/jafm/GordoMG

Tuism - YES
SailingChris - YES
absnook - YES
GordoMG - YES
jafm - NO
roffster - NO
aam01 - YES
VikingJ - NO
Luds - YES

M5: PASS, PASS, PASS, PASS, PASS
 
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Re: PBF #156: Avalon is for Lovers
Game Rules:

The rebel team comprises six main players in a nine player game.
The three spies know each other. In most respects this is a standard Avalon game.

In addition to Loyal Knights and Traitors, the game will have two Lovers, one who is a Loyal Knight, the other who is a Traitor (they will not have any other roles, such as Merlin or Assassin). The Traitor Lover will get to know the other two Traitors, and the other two Traitors will be told the identity of two other Traitors, but not which is the Lover. The Lovers will be told that they are a Lover, but not who their fellow Lover is. If the Lovers ever go on a mission together (ie, play a card into a mission), I (the moderator) will immediately them to one another AFTER card play. If they are still unknown to each other by the start of Mission 3, I will reveal them to each other then (AFTER the team is locked in, but BEFORE card play). Once the Lovers are known to one another, the Traitor Lover MUST fail missions when they are assigned to missions. They MAY NOT play Blue cards on missions after they knows their fellow Lover. And of course, as per the printed rules, Loyal Knights (including the Loyal Lover) must pass all missions, always. The Lovers win by being both on, or both off, the last mission that is sent.

Merlin has no special information about the Lovers.


Missions are 3/4/4/5*/5
*The fourth mission requires two fails.

Role GMs:

Merlin - the Traitors are Firedrake, Firedrake and Firedrake.

Percival - Merlin and Morgana are Firedrake and Firedrake.

Loyal Knight (x3) - You are a Loyal Knight.

Loyal Lover - You are a Loyal Knight and a Lover.

Assassin - You are the Assassin. Your fellow Traitors are Firedrake and Firedrake.

Morgana - You are Morgana. Your fellow Traitors are Firedrake and Firedrake.

Traitor Lover - You are a Lover. Your fellow Traitors are Firedrake, Firedrake and Firedrake.
 
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Roger BW
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Re: PBF #156: Avalon is for Lovers
PBF Rules:

1) Official mission proposals should be in bold and contain the mission number and proposal number. For example PBF 100: M1.1 Firedrake.Firedrake. Per standard PBF etiquette, the fifth proposal/hammer will automatically be sent.

2) All votes should be GM to me. Send your vote in the subject line. For example "PBF 100 m1.1 YES".

3) There is a non-strict time limit of 24 hrs on every official game action. If you are going to take much longer than that, please post in the thread in advance. Weekends are usually not included.

4) No game-related discussion is allowed outside the thread until the game is completed. This includes GMs between players and posts in other threads. If you have any questions or concerns, please feel free to ask! No question is too n00bish!

5) Do not edit posts, except in the first minute or so to fix typos. Deleting is an extreme form of editing which is also forbidden. If you do edit, please type why you are editing. Example: Edit - For spelling mistakes.

6) No dice have been provided to you. You may not use the Geekroller in this thread.

7) Please subscribe to the thread and check in at least daily (exceptions for weekends).

8) Submission changes rule: You can change a submitted card any number of times (eg PASS/FAIL, ACCEPT/REJECT) but as soon as I receive the card from the last player, no more changes are allowed, even if I'm not there to post the results yet.
If you made changes after all the cards were in, I'll tell you which submitted card was the final one.

9) Feel free to message me anytime. It makes the game fun for me seeing what your thoughts are as you figure things out.

10) Remember everyone is here to have fun! Bullying, cursing, and other unsportsmanlike like conduct is frowned upon.
 
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Roger BW
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Re: PBF #156: Avalon is for Lovers
Results:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Tuism: Traitor Lover
SailingChris: Loyal Knight
absnook: Loyal Knight
GordoMG: Merlin
jafm: Loyal Lover
roffster: Assassin
aam01: Loyal Knight
VikingJ: Morgana
Luds: Percival
 
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Steven Tu
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Re: PBF #156: Avalon is for Lovers
Hi! Never heard of the Lovers variant till now, is it in Avalon? I'm keen!
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Christine Lawrence
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The honey badger is really pretty badass. It has no regard for any other animal whatsoever. Look at him, he's just grunting, and eating snakes. Eew! What's that? A mouse? Oh that's nasty.
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But look! The honey badger doesn't care! It's getting stung like a thousand times. It doesn't give a $#%^. It's just hungry. It doesn't care about being stung by bees. Nothing can stop the honey badger when it's hungry. What a crazy @&#%!
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Re: PBF #156: Avalon is for Lovers
You beat me to it! I was going to post a lovers game to run after 150 ends. My first PBF was lovers (#116) so I thought it would be fun to get another lovers game going. But now I can play it again.

The game I played just had Merlin/Assasin and Lady of the Lake, but no Percy/Morgana. And I wanted to see how it would play this way. So thanks for setting this up. Count me in and I look forward to playing!
 
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Aaron
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Re: PBF #156: Avalon is for Lovers
So I created an account just recently, and have been lurking until now. But this game seems interesting. I've played Resistance IRL several times, and recently bought Avalon and have only played once.

I'd like to join, if people don't mind the fact that this is my first post on BGG.

I am curious about the lover mechanic - let's say people become completely sure that either you or your lover are a spy. What do you do as a lover? Have you lost? The resistance needs the lover on their side to "get over it" and join their cause - if he chooses to spite them, that's game over for resistance. Does the lover have a "partial win-con" of their natural side winning?
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Re: PBF #156: Avalon is for Lovers
Tuism wrote:
Hi! Never heard of the Lovers variant till now, is it in Avalon? I'm keen!
Yes, as posted, standard Avalon except for the Lovers.

absnook wrote:
I am curious about the lover mechanic - let's say people become completely sure that either you or your lover are a spy. What do you do as a lover? Have you lost? The resistance needs the lover on their side to "get over it" and join their cause - if he chooses to spite them, that's game over for resistance. Does the lover have a "partial win-con" of their natural side winning?
The lovers need to be extra-sneaky about it. But remember that the Loyal lover must always throw a PASS as usual for a Loyalist, and the Traitor lover (once known to the other) must throw a FAIL; they have no option for spoiling their side's victory, they just don't care about it.
 
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Re: PBF #156: Avalon is for Lovers
Indeed, the lovers don't want to reveal themselves, and indeed, a team of all-resistance, including the Loyal Lover, must pass.

But the problem is, the resistance need the Loyal Lover's vote in order to approve the team on the final mission (since it's 4 and 3). The Loyal Lover, since he's essentially aligned with the Spies (if the final mission fails, the spies win), won't vote in favor of a winning Resistance team, even though he's on it, since his lover isn't. As long as the other spies do the same, the Resistance won't be able to approve the winning team.

Edit: I did realize that theoretically, the Lovers could win with the Resistance if the Resistance win the first 3 missions, and the lovers are both not in the 3rd mission. 2nd edit: They could also win with the Resistance if they were both in (or not in) the 4th mission (3rd edit: since it requires a double fail), and that was the winning mission for the Resistance. But my point stands if it gets to the 5th mission.

Edit #4: I guess by convention, if the winning team were proposed as the 5th (hammer) proposed team on the 5th mission, the lover wouldn't be able to say no. This still requires that the proposer of the 5th team not be Spy, nor a Lover.

I guess either (a) there's something important that I missed, or (b) there needs to be some sort of incentive for lovers to want their side to win.

(Don't worry, I know I'm not supposed to edit posts in-game.)
 
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Sharon R
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Re: PBF #156: Avalon is for Lovers
IN, please.

How funny that you picked the exact role set that Sailing told me she wanted to try modding!
 
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Leif The Lucky
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Re: PBF #156: Avalon is for Lovers
absnook wrote:
Indeed, the lovers don't want to reveal themselves, and indeed, a team of all-resistance, including the Loyal Lover, must pass.

But the problem is, the resistance need the Loyal Lover's vote in order to approve the team on the final mission (since it's 4 and 3). The Loyal Lover, since he's essentially aligned with the Spies (if the final mission fails, the spies win), won't vote in favor of a winning Resistance team, even though he's on it, since his lover isn't. As long as the other spies do the same, the Resistance won't be able to approve the winning team.

Edit: I did realize that theoretically, the Lovers could win with the Resistance if the Resistance win the first 3 missions, and the lovers are both not in the 3rd mission. 2nd edit: They could also win with the Resistance if they were both in (or not in) the 4th mission (3rd edit: since it requires a double fail), and that was the winning mission for the Resistance. But my point stands if it gets to the 5th mission.

Edit #4: I guess by convention, if the winning team were proposed as the 5th (hammer) proposed team on the 5th mission, the lover wouldn't be able to say no. This still requires that the proposer of the 5th team not be Spy, nor a Lover.

I guess either (a) there's something important that I missed, or (b) there needs to be some sort of incentive for lovers to want their side to win.

(Don't worry, I know I'm not supposed to edit posts in-game.)


The last game we played with lovers was a 9 player game, so there were a majority of non-lover rebels, so this was not an issue.

One possible solution: after the lovers know who each other are, if a passing mission is proposed and the other three resistance members vote for it, then the mod secretly switches the rebel-lover's vote to affirmative.

I may join. I'll give a final answer in a bit.
 
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Roger BW
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Re: PBF #156: Avalon is for Lovers
Thanks, absnook, for laying out the objection. I agree that 7-player Avalon+Lovers may well be biased against the Loyalists, but I think it's worth trying anyway; the Loyalists will need to be alert to the loopholes you point out.
 
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Christine Lawrence
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The honey badger is really pretty badass. It has no regard for any other animal whatsoever. Look at him, he's just grunting, and eating snakes. Eew! What's that? A mouse? Oh that's nasty.
badge
But look! The honey badger doesn't care! It's getting stung like a thousand times. It doesn't give a $#%^. It's just hungry. It doesn't care about being stung by bees. Nothing can stop the honey badger when it's hungry. What a crazy @&#%!
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Re: PBF #156: Avalon is for Lovers
sharoz wrote:
IN, please.

How funny that you picked the exact role set that Sailing told me she wanted to try modding!


Yeah I know! I'm trying to recruit Joe and Chris to join as well....
 
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Joe Medeiros
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Re: PBF #156: Avalon is for Lovers
I'm so in... if it's not too late.
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Christine Lawrence
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The honey badger is really pretty badass. It has no regard for any other animal whatsoever. Look at him, he's just grunting, and eating snakes. Eew! What's that? A mouse? Oh that's nasty.
badge
But look! The honey badger doesn't care! It's getting stung like a thousand times. It doesn't give a $#%^. It's just hungry. It doesn't care about being stung by bees. Nothing can stop the honey badger when it's hungry. What a crazy @&#%!
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Re: PBF #156: Avalon is for Lovers
Firedrake wrote:
Thanks, absnook, for laying out the objection. I agree that 7-player Avalon+Lovers may well be biased against the Loyalists, but I think it's worth trying anyway; the Loyalists will need to be alert to the loopholes you point out.


Yeah I agree that 7 makes it difficult for the Rebels, but will be fun to try for sure. Are you going to allow the spy lover to do an assassination?
 
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Christine Lawrence
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The honey badger is really pretty badass. It has no regard for any other animal whatsoever. Look at him, he's just grunting, and eating snakes. Eew! What's that? A mouse? Oh that's nasty.
badge
But look! The honey badger doesn't care! It's getting stung like a thousand times. It doesn't give a $#%^. It's just hungry. It doesn't care about being stung by bees. Nothing can stop the honey badger when it's hungry. What a crazy @&#%!
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Re: PBF #156: Avalon is for Lovers
jafm wrote:
I'm so in... if it's not too late.


Well, that was.....
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Re: PBF #156: Avalon is for Lovers
SailingChris wrote:
Yeah I agree that 7 makes it difficult for the Rebels, but will be fun to try for sure. Are you going to allow the spy lover to do an assassination?
The Spy Lover is a Lover before he/she is a Spy; he/she can't win on a Spy win, so I don't think he/she should have a part in the assassination discussion (if it happens at all it means the Lovers haven't won). I'm open to persuasion on this.
 
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Re: PBF #156: Avalon is for Lovers
VikingJ wrote:


One possible solution: after the lovers know who each other are, if a passing mission is proposed and the other three resistance members vote for it, then the mod secretly switches the rebel-lover's vote to affirmative.



This seems to be a good fix. It has the potential for abuse: if someone was very vocal against a particular mission, but then votes yes on it, this could end up revealing that he's the lover and everyone on the mission is resistance (unless the lover can persuade people that he was trying to trick spies with his outcry). I don't mind this personally, since the game seems tilted toward spies.

If you didn't want the risk of a soft-reveal, you could add the clause "and 2 missions have already been failed" to the above suggestion.
 
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Christine Lawrence
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The honey badger is really pretty badass. It has no regard for any other animal whatsoever. Look at him, he's just grunting, and eating snakes. Eew! What's that? A mouse? Oh that's nasty.
badge
But look! The honey badger doesn't care! It's getting stung like a thousand times. It doesn't give a $#%^. It's just hungry. It doesn't care about being stung by bees. Nothing can stop the honey badger when it's hungry. What a crazy @&#%!
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Re: PBF #156: Avalon is for Lovers
Firedrake wrote:
SailingChris wrote:
Yeah I agree that 7 makes it difficult for the Rebels, but will be fun to try for sure. Are you going to allow the spy lover to do an assassination?
The Spy Lover is a Lover before he/she is a Spy; he/she can't win on a Spy win, so I don't think he/she should have a part in the assassination discussion (if it happens at all it means the Lovers haven't won). I'm open to persuasion on this.


I could see it going either way. I was just curious because in one lovers game I played the spy lover was able to do an assassination but there was discussion about that before the game started. And maybe with 7 instead of 9 the rebels have it difficult enough without the extra assassination. I don't really care either way though. I just wanted clarification.
 
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Re: PBF #156: Avalon is for Lovers
SailingChris wrote:
Firedrake wrote:
Thanks, absnook, for laying out the objection. I agree that 7-player Avalon+Lovers may well be biased against the Loyalists, but I think it's worth trying anyway; the Loyalists will need to be alert to the loopholes you point out.


Yeah I agree that 7 makes it difficult for the Rebels, but will be fun to try for sure. Are you going to allow the spy lover to do an assassination?


It's not just difficult. Without a fix, having only 7 players in a game makes it impossible for rebels to win on M5, unless they have a hammer (which would happen less than half of the time). Rebel lover will never allow a clean team to be sent, since that means they lose.
 
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Re: PBF #156: Avalon is for Lovers
SailingChris wrote:
Firedrake wrote:
SailingChris wrote:
Yeah I agree that 7 makes it difficult for the Rebels, but will be fun to try for sure. Are you going to allow the spy lover to do an assassination?
The Spy Lover is a Lover before he/she is a Spy; he/she can't win on a Spy win, so I don't think he/she should have a part in the assassination discussion (if it happens at all it means the Lovers haven't won). I'm open to persuasion on this.


I could see it going either way. I was just curious because in one lovers game I played the spy lover was able to do an assassination but there was discussion about that before the game started. And maybe with 7 instead of 9 the rebels have it difficult enough without the extra assassination. I don't really care either way though. I just wanted clarification.


Sailing, IIRC, you said that the Spy Lover's assassination would trump the spies' assassination if they both pick the same person as Merlin, correct? In that case, wouldn't that give the Lovers an incentive to prevent an in-game spy win because it would give them an extra chance of winning if the rebels win? But of course it also raises the chances of assassinating Merlin from 25% to 50%, which definitely stacks the odds against an ultimate rebel win.

The auto-approve suggestion for the Rebel Lover sounds like a good balancing mechanism.
 
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Re: PBF #156: Avalon is for Lovers
absnook wrote:
VikingJ wrote:


One possible solution: after the lovers know who each other are, if a passing mission is proposed and the other three resistance members vote for it, then the mod secretly switches the rebel-lover's vote to affirmative.



This seems to be a good fix. It has the potential for abuse: if someone was very vocal against a particular mission, but then votes yes on it, this could end up revealing that he's the lover and everyone on the mission is resistance (unless the lover can persuade people that he was trying to trick spies with his outcry). I don't mind this personally, since the game seems tilted toward spies.

If you didn't want the risk of a soft-reveal, you could add the clause "and 2 missions have already been failed" to the above suggestion.
Since it never happens on M1, it's not a problem there. For M2 and M3, if the rebels manage to get a passing mission that early, more power to them! In a normal game, if they can get all the rebels to vote up a passing mission on M2 or M3, they normally win. There shouldn't be an exception here.
 
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Re: PBF #156: Avalon is for Lovers
sharoz wrote:
SailingChris wrote:
Firedrake wrote:
SailingChris wrote:
Yeah I agree that 7 makes it difficult for the Rebels, but will be fun to try for sure. Are you going to allow the spy lover to do an assassination?
The Spy Lover is a Lover before he/she is a Spy; he/she can't win on a Spy win, so I don't think he/she should have a part in the assassination discussion (if it happens at all it means the Lovers haven't won). I'm open to persuasion on this.


I could see it going either way. I was just curious because in one lovers game I played the spy lover was able to do an assassination but there was discussion about that before the game started. And maybe with 7 instead of 9 the rebels have it difficult enough without the extra assassination. I don't really care either way though. I just wanted clarification.


Sailing, IIRC, you said that the Spy Lover's assassination would trump the spies' assassination if they both pick the same person as Merlin, correct? In that case, wouldn't that give the Lovers an incentive to prevent an in-game spy win because it would give them an extra chance of winning if the rebels win? But of course it also raises the chances of assassinating Merlin from 25% to 50%, which definitely stacks the odds against an ultimate rebel win.

The auto-approve suggestion for the Rebel Lover sounds like a good balancing mechanism.


If anything, I think spies' assassination should trump lovers'. I gives the rebel lover an incentive to pretend to be Merlin as well, even through the assassination phase.
 
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Re: PBF #156: Avalon is for Lovers
VikingJ wrote:
If anything, I think spies' assassination should trump lovers'. I gives the rebel lover an incentive to pretend to be Merlin as well, even through the assassination phase.


That's a good point!
 
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