Recommend
4 
 Thumb up
 Hide
21 Posts

Warhammer: Diskwars» Forums » General

Subject: Tips on Dwarves and Undead armies for local tournament rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
David Bernier
Canada
Quebec
Quebec
flag msg tools
Solo player that don't play solo
badge
Solo player that don't play solo
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Sup all! Just bought both expansions a couple days ago. I just moved to a new city and lost my regular gaming group (150 miles car drive). But a FLGS near my house is setting up a friendly tournament with FFG goodies as prices.

Since I love Dwarves and Undeads in any fantasy settings I have to try those armies in a more serious way...but the problem is i'm not gonna be able to play before the tournament so i'm a bit stuck...

I also like how the neutral factions are looking and got some ideas while checking the disks today. Here are my ideas, but I didn't had the time to choose the Command cards yet...


OPTION #1 - DWARVES

Regiment A
Queen Helga
+ Karak Azul Warriors x3
+ Ancestor Statue x1
+ Flame Cannon x1

WITH

Regiment B1
Grombrindal
+ Karak Hirn Miners x1
+ Venerable Runesmith x1
+ Master Engineer x1
+ Gyrocopter x1

OR

Regiment B2
Chakax
+ Skink Skirmishers x2
+ Slamander x2

OR

Regiment B3
Drycha
+ Wardancers x2
+ Athel Loren Dryads x2


OPTION #2 - UNDEADS

Regiment A
Heinrich Kemmler
+ Skeleton Warriors x3
+ Tomb Banshee x1
+ Zombie Dragon x1

WITH

Regiment B1
Mannfred von Carstein
+ Dire Wolves x1
+ Tomb Banshee x2
+ Black Knights x1

OR

Regiment B2
Ikit Claw
+ Gutter Runners x3
+ Rattling Gun x1


It's really hard to decide and i'd like, for those of you that played these new armies, to comment a bit about your experience and help me improve my two armies.


Thanks a lot!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Benjamin Bottorff
msg tools
mb
I'm a little prejudiced in favour of the dwarves as I still find the undead a very difficult army to play effectively. I will comment on the potential armies you have there:

Dwarves A +B1:
That looks like a plausible but somewhat defensive army. Personally I like to go with either runesmiths or staues but not one of each. With multiple runesmiths you can go for the "Rune of ..." cards and not be easily picked off, with statues you can ignore those cards and have a ton of efficient empowerment.

Dwarves A+B2:
If you do this one I'd switch out the ancestor statue for something, maybe take out both it and the flame cannon and put in two hammerers. This way you'll have a very powerful melee force and some skirmisher support.

Dwarves A+B3:
Wood elves are always pretty strong. I don't see a particular synergy here but I'm not seeing anything that feels wrong.

Undead: A+B1:
Looks like a solid setup. Not my preferred undead style but as I mentioned I have a very hard time playing undead well.

Undead: A+B2: If you're going to use the scaven, I'd strongly suggest using two rattling guns. Gutter runners fall into a crack where they've got a number of useful skills but they still die easily and frequently don't trade well. You can get them set up before the game with scout but their options are a 2damage 2dice ranged attack with medium range or to become a faster 7 cost maurader and trade them for something else. This can still be useful but I don't think you'll ever need more than two of them. The rattling guns on the other hand can get you some value if you combine it with some kind of finisher (like your leaders magic, or a reanimated black knight, or a banshee scream).

Of all of these, I'd probably pick a modified version of Dwarves A+B1.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Kartzinel
United States
Orlando
Florida
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Funny, I'm the exact opposite, Dwarves aren't really my thing (although I like the Lizardmen regiment, Skinks and Salamanders are good times!).

For the Vampire Counts, now we're talking! You might have too many tomb banshees though, I prefer to run one and a grave guard, but you've definitely got the potential to cause some pain if the dice like you.

I'm not a huge fan of either Kemmeler or Isabella, so whichever floats your boat works. However, Mannfred's awesomeness makes up for it in my book. For the Vampire Counts, command cards are really important. With them, I'd really suggest bringing Invocation of Nehek and Dark Majesty, plus one bold command card. Dark Majesty combos really nicely with an aggressive Mannfred, and with Invocation of Nehek on him, you can reanimate the Zombie Dragon. MUAHAHAHAHA. Ahem, excuse me.

Here's the catch with the Vampire Counts, you will regularly end up in a position where you MUST win the command card initiative so you can keep Mannfred protected. You'll need to be able to out-think your opponent to pull off the really nasty shenanigans that Vampire Counts can do.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Riku Riekkinen
Finland
Jyväskylä
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
If the tournament follows normal FFG rules, I warn using too many Banshees with undead. In mirror matches they are quite useless (and with small number of factions mirrors are likely to happen).

Also I think dwarves are much stronger faction overall (My personal view is that all Order factions are stronger than Destructopn factions), but as you see now we are moving on to my personal opinions. You dwaves seem to be kind of defensive army. However they don't have any siege range weapons... so its very likely they have to attack. So I would advice to get Runic Cannon or dropping fancy stuff & concentrating on heavy melee. Like:
Helga - Warriors, Hammerers x2, Gyrocopter
Grombrindal - Warriors x2, Hammerers, Gyrocopter

Or
Helga - Warriors x3, Hammerers x2
Grombrindal - Hammerers, Thunderers x3 (amd in this case take Stand Firm)
1 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Bernier
Canada
Quebec
Quebec
flag msg tools
Solo player that don't play solo
badge
Solo player that don't play solo
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Good stuff guys, thanks a bunch!
I'll rework my army, which will be the Dwarves for sure after looking more at them...but the damn Counts look so cool...

I like this:

Riku Riekkinen wrote:

Helga - Warriors, Hammerers x2, Gyrocopter
Grombrindal - Warriors x2, Hammerers, Gyrocopter


Q: Are the monuments cool disks to have overall?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Totter
Denmark
Brønshøj
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Rhezuss wrote:
Good stuff guys, thanks a bunch!
I'll rework my army, which will be the Dwarves for sure after looking more at them...but the damn Counts look so cool...

I like this:

Riku Riekkinen wrote:

Helga - Warriors, Hammerers x2, Gyrocopter
Grombrindal - Warriors x2, Hammerers, Gyrocopter


Q: Are the monuments cool disks to have overall?


My biggest beef with Dwarfs is, I dont really fancy any of their command cards :/
For a tournament I would go Runic Cannon and Engineers all in - with luck you can win over almost any player because of its ability to further improve a good roll.

I would tip the odds to your favour to win the initial dice roll (keep 4 in the bank). Choose to go last, and weed out any caves and make sure you get high ground etc. Objectives wise you would want Rain of Arrows of course.

Thorgrim
Runic Cannon
2 Master Engineers
(28 points out of 32).

Queen Helga
2 Karak Thunderers
3 Warriors
(34 out of 34)

Thorgrim on top, with the 3 expandables following him and with the sneaky swift giver Helga behind them. The rest stays back and unleashes hell.

Cards wise, a lot depends on your opponent, but going in blind I would choose:
Grim Resolve (Steady 3) It cancels out the new Proven Champion card and gives a nice boost to counter, so even a warrior can wound the toughest of foes.
Lure (Devious 3) Empower - toughness 5 is good, toughness 6 is godly.
Inspire (Bold 3) -//-
Rally (Slow 2) For some extra cannon fun.

Btw. I dont feel like the monument is a substitute for the lure and inspire card. You could try a version with "only" +3 to the initial dice throw and swap out a warrior. But I would rather have a warrior than a monument.
2 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Benjamin Bottorff
msg tools
mb
I like the monuments but they're not something to include in any army. Among other things the main thing they let you do is let your disks in one area be very efficient but they're useless past that area. As such, they tend to be a defensive unit (though I have had some success using them offensively) and they don't fight on their own. They cost recruitment points but save you card slots. This works well with a dwarf army that wants to entrench around a runic cannon with the stand firm card, some thunderers, and just enough melee to counter attack because you can provide the empowerments needed to keep your disks alive against an onslaught cheaply and even if the statue gets pinned it can still use its power. When are the two empowerments per turn worth the not having an extra unit? When keeping the units you have alive is more important than having an extra unit to attack with.

I have run an army that looks a lot like the one Riku posted except that it uses Thorgirm instead of Grombinal and runepriests instead of warriors, simply because I like having a front line of what are essentially 6,6,6 infantry + Thorgrim. This army has serious problems initiating a fight but if it can get into a fight without too many units getting picked off it can crush the face off just about any army.

EDIT: At the above army: I'm not so sure that you'd want rain of arrows depending on your opponent, it won't boost your cannon only your thunderers and for those to fire your enemy has to get into medium range. May very well help your enemies ranged support more than your own.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Totter
Denmark
Brønshøj
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Velensk wrote:

EDIT: At the above army: I'm not so sure that you'd want rain of arrows depending on your opponent, it won't boost your cannon only your thunderers and for those to fire your enemy has to get into medium range. May very well help your enemies ranged support more than your own.


That may be very true - but he will know his opponent, before he chooses I am guessing.

How are you faring with those Runesmiths btw?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Benjamin Bottorff
msg tools
mb
That army won once and lost once.

The time it lost it was against a lizardman/wood elf army and the scenario was generalcide. I made some mistakes and then the dice compounded them (the gyrocopters missed every single shot and twice I had my heroes activated by darts). I'm pretty certain I'd have lost without the bad dice results but as it happened it wasn't even a contest. I think my enemy still had 5 disks including both his heroes left in the end.

The time I won it was against a chaos/undead army featuring a lot of fear units but I ended up going second and I had the option of choosing either fearless or rain of arrows (having no missile disks it was easy to pick). Against this much less mobile/flexable army I was able to limited his options of how to engage me more. Here the runepriests did their job despite the plaugebearer who could only be in one place at a time until it died.

EDIT: Chalk up another loss though this one was very close. It was against a boar boyz stampede, my enemy ended with Azhag and a rock lobber. There was a funny moment in this game though. Seeing what I was up against I decided to include a shieldwall (normally I don't for this army as this army already deals so much defensive damage that the sheildwall is redundant) I ended up going second again and had the choice of champions arise or charge. Figuring I already had more than enough empowerments and now wanting him to be able to catch up I picked charge (I also figured it'd be good for dwarves). In retrospect I think that was a mistake as it helps boar boyz and grom even more. My enemy had gotten into position for his stampede behind a choke formed by the terrain. Smart plan on his part as even if I went first I could only pin the front boar boyz without sending in my gyrocopter to get trampled. I still thought it'd be worth it so I picked my devious card to intercept his Waagghhh! This proved to be a mistake on my part as he'd picked his Entrap card instead. One of his boar boyz came out of the chocked and pinned one of my disks, an orc boyz followed up and then the other boar boyz stepped forward and the big boss came through and unactivated the boar boyz (by pinning Thorgrim). One of the boar boyz, the orc boyz and the big boss formed a screen protecting the back boar boyz. I counter pinned the intruders and all of them would die but that would leave both the boar boyz and Grom who was flanking from a different direction to trample all over me in return. I didn't have a second devious card so I played my shieldwall and he played his Waaggghh! He was happy about going first and made ready to double impact my hammerer and runesmith pinning his front first boar boyz till he realized that he couldn't actually do that without losing the boar boyz to the damage from guard. He went through with it anyway. The second boar boy had more targets and so he could choose how to hurt me most without dieing to the guard damage and he took it to the brink knowing that I didn't have grudgeborn fury or some other finisher. That one series of events is undoubtably what won him the game but despite losing 5 disks in one turn the disks I had left were actually able to carve his front line to shreds, in part because the second gyrocopter was able to hit the Big Boss pinning the now furious Thorgrim who laid down some impact of his own to turn the tide. It wasn't quite enough but it was fun to watch a boar boyz stampede pause and wonder if he should charge given a wagghhh! card and an enemy at point blank range.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Bernier
Canada
Quebec
Quebec
flag msg tools
Solo player that don't play solo
badge
Solo player that don't play solo
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If I understand the Runic Cannon correctly...

On the initial roll, anything Hit or Crit is considered a Scatter...so if I roll 2 crits it's considered 2 Scatter...so I reroll any scatter previously rolled but targetting a new target in short range and any Crits rolled (since it's in a siege range) would now connect on the "new" targets in short range of the initial one?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Riku Riekkinen
Finland
Jyväskylä
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
On the initial roll, anything Hit or Crit is considered (a Hit and a Scatter) or (a Crit and a Scatter)...so if I roll 2 crits it's considered 2 Crits and 2 Scatter...

-----

My reasoning not to get Runesmiths in competitive list is that 4-3-2-3 is 4-4-3-4 enpowered, which is still weaker than Warrior. OK, usually you want to enpower someone else. Still

1) You have to be able to activate Runesmith
2) You can enpower key disk via battle ability also
3) Runesmith creates a weakness (4-3-2-3 vs 4-4-3-5) to enemy exploit somewhere, if he enpowers someone else / is pinned. I mean overall army performance is weakened
4) Runesmiths provide great targets for enemy ranged units right from beginning

Personally I feel Runesmiths are not worth their cost unless you want to use Runesmith cards. And I feel they are not good enough currently. Runesmiths would be a lot better, if dwarves had disks that gain extra from enpowerement (= they would be much better in Empire army)

-----

I too used Grudgebearer & Helga in my melee & Gyrocopters army. Very effectively it has destroyed enemy armies. I must however note that those have been friendlies (= enemy has at least partly tested funny disks / tactics).

-----

Of the command cards I like:
1) Grim Resolve (very good card even, if only for trading effectively when pinned.... usually the problem isn't trading effectively / beating opponent when you are pinning)
2) Enpower cards
3) Perhaps Rally to activate Gyrocoper twice in row to pin some backline eneme & shooting twice in the way. Or Shieldwall for first clash.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Benjamin Bottorff
msg tools
mb
I agree that if you don't want to use the Rune Cards, runesmiths are overpriced. I also agree that neither of the cards is especially good but I actually still like being able to use them.

Ideally your runesmiths shouldn't ever have to empower themselves (of course, the situations ingame are rarely ideal) but should instead be spending empowerments preventing other disks from taking wounds/being casualties. One of the reasons I like runesmiths is that they are a unit that can stall productively. What I mean by that is that while you're just activating disks waiting for your enemy to run low on units these guys can still be doing something that helps you.

Rune of Cleaving ironically, although allowed by the runesmiths is most useful in that army for the runesmiths, allowing them to trade very efficiently, even if they were pinned first. Of course, sometimes you'll want it for someone else and its there but it does go a long way to making your rune smiths less of a liability. EDIT: To elaborate, Rune of cleaving lets you turn any dwarf into a killer whether it be a miner or a thunderer or whatever. That can be very useful but by the time you've loaded up on the runepriests to make it happen and the rest of your army is hammerers and gyrocopters the runepriests end up being the one who need the most help killing things. In a different army you'd have to try harder to keep the runepriests alive but the rune of cleaving would have more targets.

Spelleater Rune is a very situational card and even then it's tricky to use. If it were simply a bold card and could be used to stop an intimidate before it happens that alone would make it so much more useful. However, such is not the case. I have still seen it do some things however I wouldn't include it with any army unless I knew I was up against chaos, or undead, or maybe someone copying my arcane storm orcs against me. I don't think I've ever actually seen the resistance to magic be relevant I have however been able to frustrate enemies with the immunity to battle abilities. It may not be able to beat intimidate out the gate but if you get it on one of your disks before he plays intimidate he'll still end up with a pinned hero that won't be able to thwart you. I've also seen it shield my last unactivated/unpinned disk from a Gaze of Nagash.

I think on the whole though, runesmiths are better in three regiment armies where you're less tight up for card slots. That army is fun to play but I don't reckon it to be all that strong (in fact, the only reason I ended up playing them again last night was that everyone was short on time and I'd just been talking about it an hour prior).
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Bernier
Canada
Quebec
Quebec
flag msg tools
Solo player that don't play solo
badge
Solo player that don't play solo
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
And in siege a "Hit" does nohing right? Only crits do damage?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Benjamin Bottorff
msg tools
mb
That is correct. We also got an note from the developers stating that you do not get an extra scatter result when you roll a 'hit' at siege range.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Bernier
Canada
Quebec
Quebec
flag msg tools
Solo player that don't play solo
badge
Solo player that don't play solo
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Velensk wrote:
That is correct. We also got an note from the developers stating that you do not get an extra scatter result when you roll a 'hit' at siege range.


So with the Runic cannon it's basically:

Initial roll
On a "Hit" = nothing
On a "Crit" = Scatter
On a "Scatter" = Scatter

Second roll
On a "Hit" = nothing
On a "Crit" = Crit
On a "Scatter" = nothing
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Riku Riekkinen
Finland
Jyväskylä
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
So with the Runic cannon (on siege range) it's basically:

Initial roll
On a "Hit" = nothing
On a "Crit" = Crit (original target) and Scatter
On a "Scatter" = Scatter

Second (scatter) roll
On a "Hit" = nothing
On a "Crit" = Crit
On a "Scatter" = nothing[/q]
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Bernier
Canada
Quebec
Quebec
flag msg tools
Solo player that don't play solo
badge
Solo player that don't play solo
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Riku Riekkinen wrote:
So with the Runic cannon (on siege range) it's basically:

Initial roll
On a "Hit" = nothing
On a "Crit" = Crit (original target) and Scatter
On a "Scatter" = Scatter

Second (scatter) roll
On a "Hit" = nothing
On a "Crit" = Crit
On a "Scatter" = nothing
[/q]

Nice thanks!
Now I like the cannon
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Totter
Denmark
Brønshøj
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb

For some obscene Runic cannon op action:

Queen Helga

1 Runic cannon
2 Master engineers
1 Warrior

Karl Franz
2 Swordsmen
2 Knights

(3 points left to get better odds at choosing terrain).

Rally card.

That should be 6 times a round that cannon shoots. In round 1 on average thats 2 crits + 2 extra scatter probably.
In round 2 its slaughter time.
By turn 3 you should be able to counter pretty strong due to lack of opponents and Helga and the knights.

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Riku Riekkinen
Finland
Jyväskylä
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
I think 2nd engineer is overkill. Otherwise I like your army. Replacing 2nd engineer with Hammerers would increase counter attack punch a lot (and 2nd engineer is giving just one shot anyway).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Benjamin Bottorff
msg tools
mb
I agree that the second engineer is probably overkill.

One thing that people who build artillery armies tend to forget is the amount of time/activations it takes to unfold from a deployment zone so that your units are not all pinning each other. Now some deployment zones can help out with that quite a bit but my experience is that they don't ever get their theoretical max shots off. Taking into account cover, caves, and such I think that you overestimate how effective those 6 shots would be even if you do get them off. A bit of extra protection so that your enemies cannot be incautious while pounding you would probably serve better.

Also when picking cards for that army remember that each engineer effectively costs an extra activation as does the rally. If you run two engineers, in order to activate everyone (before you start taking casualties) while using rally on the cannon and Karl Franz on the cannon and an engineer this army would take 13 activations and would already have one card taken up with rally which would leave 11 activations for the last three cards to fill.

That said, dwarf artillery is very strong and knights panther make an excellent defence for it (and support for the dwarves in general I find)
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Totter
Denmark
Brønshøj
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The army is built around the cannon, so don´t think its overkill really.
And yes a cave will spell doom for the Dwarfs, but that´s why you sacrifice points to be half way sure of second player. If I was in the above final, I would even go as far as sacrificing the warrior, to have 9 points left to make sure you don´t get defeated before setting up.

And ya the reason why I only wrote the rally card, is because the rest of the cards, don´t really matter - but they have to be high. But thanks for highlighting that for OP.

Happily I will never play that army btw :)

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.