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Mage Knight Board Game: The Lost Legion Expansion» Forums » Rules

Subject: Arcane immunity in a city. rss

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Bart Keys
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Does an arcane immune enemy benefit from a city bonus?

If it does gain their benefit is it just from some of them or from all of them? (I mean from the wording on the white city and the skill it would appear that it should gain no benefit. The blue city should work but the red and green cities are not so clear to me.)

Arcane immunity:
"Enemies with Arcane Immunity are not affected by any non-attack/non-block effects, from no matter what source they are from."

I've always played they get the benefits, I suspect I'm playing this incorrectly.
 
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Trevin Beattie
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Eugene
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I would argue that Arcane Immunity is intended to protect the enemy from his attackers, not to work against itself.

Failing that, I would then argue that the city bonuses are not effects, but abilities.
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Bart Keys
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So..

I agree with your belief to the intent of the game designer, however there is no evidence of this in the rules themselves. Correct?

Your second argument is weak to the point of dangerous. Arcane immunity wording "no matter what source they are from" seems to cover it.

It gets dangerous when you consider that abilities are unit based things used to effect enemies, when you allow an ability to work then your opening a revolving door to unit abilities effecting arcane immunity.

 
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Trevin Beattie
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Bart_aus wrote:
So..

I agree with your belief to the intent of the game designer, however there is no evidence of this in the rules themselves. Correct?

Your second argument is weak to the point of dangerous. Arcane immunity wording "no matter what source they are from" seems to cover it.

It gets dangerous when you consider that abilities are unit based things used to effect enemies, when you allow an ability to work then your opening a revolving door to unit abilities effecting arcane immunity.


Are you saying that the Sorcerers’ Arcane Immunity should negate their own Poison ability, or the Shadow’s A.I. should negate its Cold Fire and Elusive abilities, or the Grim Legionnaires’ A.I. should negate its Unfortified ability? I can’t even imagine how you would make the Dragon Summoner immune to its double-summoning attack.

As for evidence in the rules, I refer to the examples given in the following sentence (L.L. p. 6):
Quote:
i.e. ignore any effects that directly destroy an enemy, prevent it from attacking, reduce its Armor etc.

and the description of “effects” in the base rules (p. 5):
Quote:
1. Deed cards, Units, Skill tokens and some Tactic cards provide a variety of effects that may be used on a given turn.

 
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Lord Limboldt
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So while the enemy is protected, its attack is not...whistle
 
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Joseph Cochran
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Bart_aus wrote:
Your second argument is weak to the point of dangerous. Arcane immunity wording "no matter what source they are from" seems to cover it.


So by your logic Arcane Immune enemies shouldn't be fortified if you encounter them in a city, keep, or mage tower? Site fortifications are a bonus granted by the site, just as city bonuses are.

Either way, Arcane Immunity is a Defensive Ability. While neither the rulebook nor the Walkthrough specifically define that term, they are abilities against which the Mage Knight must contend, not abilities against which the enemy itself must be hampered.

If you compare the wordings here:

Rulebooks on Defensive Abilities wrote:

Fire Resistance – All Fire Attacks are ineff cient (halved).
The enemy ignores any non-Attack effects of red cards or Unit abilities powered by red mana.

-----------

Arcane Immunity – The enemy is not affected by any non-Attack/Block effects. Effects that directly affect enemy attacks still apply.


...it seems to me that there's an implied "played against this enemy", and that these effects wouldn't apply to bonuses granted by the site.
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Magnesi
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While I agree that this is against the spirit of the norm, I find hard to conclude that arcane immunity protects against armor reduction and not against the white city bonus. In the other cities, since it affects their attacks (*), so I don't see any problem there.

(*) Well, you can argue that brutal and poison aren't attacks attributes but attacker's abilities. In the rulebook, they haven't detailed arcane immunity as much as other concepts. The etcetera in page 6 that Trevin cites is ambiguous in my opinion.
 
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Magnesi
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jsciv wrote:
it seems to me that there's an implied "played against this enemy"
The problem here is that not only they've omitted that part, but they've added the no matter what source they come from which means the opposite.
 
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Joseph Cochran
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syzygia wrote:
jsciv wrote:
it seems to me that there's an implied "played against this enemy"
The problem here is that not only they've omitted that part, but they've added the no matter what source they come from which means the opposite.


Well, if you really want them to never get fortification in cities, keeps, and mage towers, nor from walls, have at it.
 
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Christian Shelton
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jsciv wrote:
Well, if you really want them to never get fortification in cities, keeps, and mage towers, nor from walls, have at it.


I agree with jsciv here that the "immunity" only pertains to enemy (enemy from their point-of-view... that is, you!) effects. In particular, that annoying white unit with all the attack and armor (cannot remember the name) has not only arcane immunity, but also the "no fortification" ability. If we take another interpretation, it seems the two are redundant. Why tell us twice that it doesn't get site fortifications?

Of course, as with all such discussions, it can be read either way. The real question is what was *intended*. Of course, I don't know, but I think that it was intended that such foes would get site benefits (including those from a particular color of city).
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Magnesi
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Fortification doesn't affect the enemy, it only affects the MK. I mean, when you attack a city, the enemies don't gain the ability "fortification" (that's why Cold Toughness doesn't get an additional +1). In the rules, enemies are considered forified if (literally) "they are defending a fortified site or because they have the fortified ability in their token". And you can't play ranged attacks against fortified enemies.

You're not modifying the arcane enemy, but the rules doesn't allow to use ranged attacks when the defenders are in a fortified site.

Anyway, as I said, I can completely agree that the rule was written without considering the city bonus. However, I can see the OP point makes sense.
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