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Subject: Adding some diesel rss

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Soda Popinski
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Doing the math on diesel I'm thinking, why don´t I have this card in every single shaper deck...

Correct me if im wrong, but if i draw and then play diesel that nets me 1 extra card draw, effectively making my deck a 44 card deck in terms of draw consistency.

Why would i keep my deck to 45 cards without diesel when i can make it 48 card with three diesel added? That would make it effectively a 42 card deck when drawing. (other card effects not taken into consideration)

Im sure this has been debated since core set but I'm bored..

Also, would someone like to share an analysis on diesel vs John Masanori..
 
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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Agreed. Most blitz Shaper decks have both Diesel and Quality Time. In a game where draw is king, it's almost an auto-include, even when having tutors.
 
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Steven Tu
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Some decks simply don't need or don't have the room for it - for example if your econ engine of choice is Pro Contacts, then maybe drawing with that AND diesel ends up too much and you pitch half your cards. Maybe you simply need all the cards in all the slots in threes (dunno, some kind of combo or something). Maybe maybe maybe.

But yes I usually Diesel most of my shaper decks.
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Ony Moose
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If you are running Donut Taganes you might not want to run Diesel! Otherwise though it is an excellent card.

With Wyldside, or ProCon you might not want it though.
 
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simon bradford
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soda_popinski wrote:
Doing the math on diesel I'm thinking, why don´t I have this card in every single shaper deck...

Correct me if im wrong, but if i draw and then play diesel that nets me 1 extra card draw, effectively making my deck a 44 card deck in terms of draw consistency.

Why would i keep my deck to 45 cards without diesel when i can make it 48 card with three diesel added? That would make it effectively a 42 card deck when drawing. (other card effects not taken into consideration)

Im sure this has been debated since core set but I'm bored..

Also, would someone like to share an analysis on diesel vs John Masanori..


Hmmmm

So if you're drawing like mad to find a card that is somewhere in your stack, drawing a Diesel only helps if the card is not the first or second card after the Diesel.

But I suppose more importantly, why not have a 45 card deck with 3 Diesels making it an effectively a 39 card deck when drawing?
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Aaron Smith
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rattkin wrote:
Agreed. Most blitz Shaper decks have both Diesel and Quality Time. In a game where draw is king, it's almost an auto-include, even when having tutors.


I've been thinking about card draw a little lately. I look over a lot of decks and I see that, with shapers, tons of card draw is almost always included. I play shaper a lot, and enjoy it, but I quite often find myself not wanting to draw a bunch of cards because I'll end up having to discard cards in my hand that I want to keep. I'll rarely include Quality Time, and when I do, I rarely run it unless I'm down a lot of cards or I'm really desperate to find something.

But lately I've been wondering if that's something that's holding me back from being a better player...that I tend to hoard cards. That I need to be a bit more aggressive with discarding things and stay focused on the task at hand so to speak.
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Zak Jarvis
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I'm not sure about the maths there.

It seems to me that 'Diesel' turns the action "click: draw one card" into an action "click, click: draw three cards". So each copy reduces your effective deck size by one. Adding three copies of 'Diesel' to a 45 card deck to make it a 48 card deck would therefore result in an effective deck size of... 45 cards.

In other words adding additional 'Diesel' cards to a deck is neutral in terms of "effective deck size". Substituting a 'Diesel' for a different card reduces your effective deck size by one for the trade-off of the loss of the substituted card.


Edit: Brain-fart. 'Diesel' cards shouldn't count as real cards in your effective deck size in the way I've considered it. So, yes with 48 cards including 'Diesel' you have 45 "real" cards, and an effective deck size of 42 "real" cards. So yes, adding extra 'Diesel' cards on top of your usual deck should be beneficial for drawing through the deck.
 
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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MinisterOfPropaganda wrote:


I've been thinking about card draw a little lately. I look over a lot of decks and I see that, with shapers, tons of card draw is almost always included. I play shaper a lot, and enjoy it, but I quite often find myself not wanting to draw a bunch of cards because I'll end up having to discard cards in my hand that I want to keep. I'll rarely include Quality Time, and when I do, I rarely run it unless I'm down a lot of cards or I'm really desperate to find something.

But lately I've been wondering if that's something that's holding me back from being a better player...that I tend to hoard cards. That I need to be a bit more aggressive with discarding things and stay focused on the task at hand so to speak.


This is fairly normal and I remember having the same problem myself not that long ago. It's just something you have to think about when optimizing your move. Yes, that Maker's Eye you have on hand is precious, but you if you don't have a Fracter, it's just slowing you down. But discarding cards is a mental challenge, not just optimization step. Sometimes it's just harder to do it. Sometimes you have to calculate what's better for now or what you desperately need for now. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices for greater good (or lesser evil).
 
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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popeye09 wrote:
I'm not sure about the maths there.

It seems to me that 'Diesel' turns the action "click: draw one card" into an action "click, click: draw three cards". So each copy reduces your effective deck size by one. Adding three copies of 'Diesel' to a 45 card deck to make it a 48 card deck would therefore result in an effective deck size of... 45 cards.


Don't overestimate having Diesel in starting hand. It can quickstart your operations fairly quickly. In fact, most often you want it very early (hence people always put 3 copies). Later on you focus on SMC/Test Run (not always, though).
 
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Rana Puer
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I saw the title of this thread and thought "yeah, that does sound like a good strategy"
 
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Zak Jarvis
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'Diesel' in the starting hand has the same effect in terms of "effective size".

As stated above, 'Diesel' drawn later on effectively gives you:

"click, click: draw three cards"

so saves one effective deck space in terms of drawing through cards.

A 'Diesel' in the starting hand effectively gives you:

"click: draw two cards"

a slightly different (and marginally preferable) action, but in terms of deck size still saves you one card over the standard "click: draw one card" action.

Why does 'Diesel' in the starting hand give you "click: draw two cards"? Because the first of the three cards you draw replaces the card you would have had in your starting hand if you didn't have 'Diesel' in your deck!
 
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Jeff Pruyne
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The issue with this analysis is if you're drawing for a particular card a better way to think of any card in your deck is "is this the card I'm looking for". In most shaper decks, because they tend to be toolbox-y a card is either useful or it isn't. In that case diesel becomes a lot better. If I'm searching for my code gate breaker drawing anything other than a tutor or the breaker isn't useful. But if I draw a diesel, I get to save three more clicks. Yes it costs a click to draw, but that's a click I would spend anyway.
I don't think this analysis is perfect, but I think this is slightly better than saving one click when searching for something. If you're just drawing for hand size or some other reason, yeah it's not great.

As a side note I've been using John Massanori, and he make diesel amazing, and makes drawing it as good as drawing it in your starting hand.
 
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Zak Jarvis
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It's not so much that you would have clicked to draw anyway, it's that you didn't get a "real" card for it. 'Diesel' has no inherent use in itself (it's never going to be the icebreaker you were after), it's only good for getting to other cards that do have a use! So there is an opportunity cost, if you will, in that if you didn't draw 'Diesel' then you would have got a "real" card (one with an inherent use).

It is good, it saves you a click. I'm afraid it doesn't save you three clicks though.

Consider if you don't have 'Diesel' and you're looking for a card:

Click: get a potentially useful card;
Click: get a potentially useful card.

If you have 'Diesel' this becomes:

Click: get 'Diesel';
Click: play 'Diesel' and get three potentially useful cards.

So you spend two clicks on both occasions, but get one more "real" card if you draw 'Diesel'.
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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This is a very "in-vacuum" analysis. How about looking at this way: "click: chance to get a that useful card you need increases significantly"? You are putting click: draw and two clicks: two draws on the same level. They're not. There might be some hesitance to use another click to draw. There might be other things to do. There is opportunity cost (diesel - one click, three cards, new options, normal draw - just a card, do I draw further, or not?). It's way more subtle than just cold math. More information is (almost) ALWAYS BETTER.
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Jeff Pruyne
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Your right it never would save 3 clicks, that was just some terrible math.

In a lot of decks you diesel then two click = three potentially interesting cards is the correct analysis, but there are also decks, particularly some shaper decks, where just getting through 4 cards for two clicks in what you want.

When looking for 1 or 2 of a specific card you're playing a game of odds where diesel is only bad if the card would have reasonably been in the top 2 cards on your stack.

If you're always drawing diesel to look for the same card every game, it's better to put more of that card in, but I think when looking for less omni-usefull cards diesel becomes useful.
 
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Sean Trundle
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MinisterOfPropaganda wrote:
rattkin wrote:
Agreed. Most blitz Shaper decks have both Diesel and Quality Time. In a game where draw is king, it's almost an auto-include, even when having tutors.


I've been thinking about card draw a little lately. I look over a lot of decks and I see that, with shapers, tons of card draw is almost always included. I play shaper a lot, and enjoy it, but I quite often find myself not wanting to draw a bunch of cards because I'll end up having to discard cards in my hand that I want to keep. I'll rarely include Quality Time, and when I do, I rarely run it unless I'm down a lot of cards or I'm really desperate to find something.

But lately I've been wondering if that's something that's holding me back from being a better player...that I tend to hoard cards. That I need to be a bit more aggressive with discarding things and stay focused on the task at hand so to speak.


It's also worth noting that Shapers have options that support rapid card draw:
Modded - This is huge, since it clears two cards for one click at a steep discount.
Personal Workshop - Allows you to play cards from hand even when you can't pay for them quite yet.
Clone Chip/Test Run - Makes pitching cards to the heap less painful, since you have efficient ways to pull them back in a pinch.
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Kester J
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rattkin wrote:
This is a very "in-vacuum" analysis. How about looking at this way: "click: chance to get a that useful card you need increases significantly"? You are putting click: draw and two clicks: two draws on the same level. They're not. There might be some hesitance to use another click to draw. There might be other things to do. There is opportunity cost (diesel - one click, three cards, new options, normal draw - just a card, do I draw further, or not?). It's way more subtle than just cold math. More information is (almost) ALWAYS BETTER.


While this is true, I suspect the situation "I drew a Diesel and lost the game because I needed a card to play right this click" is rare compared to the numerous times where it helps you by improving your consistency and draw speed - enough so that you need a good reason not to include it in a Shaper deck by default. Usually the reason is another card draw effect like Pro Con or Quality Time, though these don't necessarily exclude having Diesel too.


NB: This assumes reducing your effective deck size is always good. While I'm inclined to think that it is, I do think there is an interesting tangential discussion to be had about whether there are Shaper decks - particularly those based on recursion - whose optimal number of cards is getting close to the 40/45-card deck size, which would make this questionable.
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