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Subject: Doctrine for Soviets? Why no rules? rss

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Kev.
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One of the aspects of early Eastern Front warfare was the Soviet strict command and control/doctrine and the manner in which tanks and even troops fought.

Is there any reason not to have some optional advanced rules for how platoons of tanks (say non Veteran only) must fight?

My understanding is that the earlier versions of this title may have had some rules to cater for this.

OR was this something that was a doctrine at a higher level Battalion and up?

Certainly would not be hard to word, just curious about this as it came up as a comment on @bigboardgaming.com blog.
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Fernando Sola Ramos
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Soviet doctrine is related to both how units fought and how objectives were set for units. Flexibility was nonexistent in the early Red Army. Objectives were set at the higher echelons and subordinate units had to accomplish those objectives. Once taken, units didn't have any freedom of movement.

This cannot be translated at the level of Panzer, because it would limit enormously how to command your cardboard units. But there is another aspect of the Soviet doctrine that can be achieved in Panzer without changing or adding rules. And that is how units fought.

During the early stages of war, Soviet units lacked proper communications and they had to fight very close together. This can be simulating by lowering the force formation grade and forcing the Soviets to use a low number of commands. This should encourage stacking and units will have to move together and to fire together at a very limited number of targets.

So, if you lower Soviet force formation grade and you rise German formation grade (so giving the Germans much more flexibility in maneuvering and firing doctrine) you can achieve the sensation of Soviet doctrine. For balance purposes this will also mean an increase of Soviet units, which was something that also actually happened: a lower number of flexible and veteran Germans against hordes of ill trained Soviets. So, I think that within the frame of the actual rulebook, Soviet doctrine can be easily avhivied.

As the war progressed, the Soviets began to be more flexible, whereas the Germans saw a deterioration in their command line, so at the end of the war the roles should be changed accordingly.

Edited: I wanted to say formation, not force. You can use force grade to change the chances of initiative.
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Jeffry Welfare
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Gustav6 wrote:

So, if you lower Soviet force grade and you rise German force grade (so giving the Germans much more flexibility in maneuvering and firing doctrine) you can achieve the sensation of Soviet doctrine. For balance purposes this will also mean an increase of Soviet units, which was something that also actually happened: a lower number of flexible and veteran Germans against hordes of ill trained Soviets. So, I think that within the frame of the actual rulebook, Soviet doctrine can be easily avhivied.

As the war progressed, the Soviets began to be more flexible, whereas the Germans saw a deterioration in their command line, so at the end of the war the roles should be changed accordingly.


Except of course there were still more Soviet tanks than German tanks.
 
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Jim Day
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I never really cared for the doctrine rules in MBT/IDF. They were added by the series developer. I never felt that those rules really captured the aspects of doctrine. I felt that they imposed an artificial penalty on the Soviets to boost the opposing forces.

All of the rules necessary to simulate the limitations are included in the game. Earlier in the war use the optional rules for the lack of radios for the Soviets, which forces the Soviets to stay together. Along with the formation grade rules, this creates a very good representation of the limitations faced by the Soviets.
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Kev.
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mongoose27 wrote:
I never really cared for the doctrine rules in MBT/IDF. They were added by the series developer. I never felt that those rules really captured the aspects of doctrine. I felt that they imposed an artificial penalty on the Soviets to boost the opposing forces.

All of the rules necessary to simulate the limitations are included in the game. Earlier in the war use the optional rules for the lack of radios for the Soviets, which forces the Soviets to stay together. Along with the formation grade rules, this creates a very good representation of the limitations face by the Soviets.

Good point on the radios.
I was just thinking about some of the doctrine based themed rules in SPI games that drove some behaviour and limited the Soviet players.

-Fernando as Jeffrey says that does not account for the volume issue. Plus you are now tweaking for some 'feel'. I was looking for concrete. The Radio rule will likely do it.

I never played with the MBT doctrine, I was curious about Jim's approach to this and why the choice came about, since we are diving deep into the technical aspects of the machinery, command points, cohesion and morale it seemed worthwhile to explore one of the significant aspects of this war at this time in the war.
Thanks for the insight.
 
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Brent Pollock
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Another design question cleared up by the internet. Thanks for posting that, guys; I was wondering why doctrine disappeared in the MBT to GMT PANZER transition.
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Jason Cawley
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This is what the command limits and unit quality rules enforce.

If you just have regulars, you get command range 0, meaning units can only share a command if they are in the same hex. And you get a smaller budget of commands per unit in your force.

The result will be that you either move and fight in stacks, or only half your force moves and fights any given game turn. Everyone knows which of those to choose when forces are intact. After enough losses, though, there will be singletons left and not enough commands to go around.

It isn't a nationality thing, it is just a unit quality thing.
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Brent Pollock
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...and equipment thing if you use 7.4 Without Radio Sets.
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