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Subject: Is this game rubbish or what? rss

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nick P
United Kingdom
london
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Look, I have played the first three scenarios and found it stodgy, turgid and clunky - and that's the bits I enjoyed!

There's just too much information all over the place and the combat was so unexciting I barely cared who won. I found the veritable sweetshop array of colours induced delirium and even pure psychic automata devoid of all moral and aesthetic preoccupations.

Besides which some American officer and Major Grauber were nowhere to be seen and I don't believe I lost them. Basically, I thought the game was rubbish.

Therefore, it would be easy for me to cry 'HYPE!' and give up at this juncture.

However, the game seems to excite numerous BGGers including several I respect for their acumen, taste and experience so, come on everyone, make some encouraging sounds so I don't truck the game down to my local charity shop (that's thrift store for the yanks among you).

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Martin Gallo
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It is a simple game, mechanically. It will not appeal to everyone.

What I enjoyed about it the most were the artwork (I found it evocative rather than distracting) and that it is easy to play. Yes, lots to look up during the game, but it all seemed to work for me rather than be distracting. I was engaged in integrating all the special features and terrain into my strategy and desire to win.

I do not think I could play it non-stop for the rest of my life, but it definitely has its place.
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nick P
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Yes, artwork is a component - even an important component - of the experience of playing a game but for me it is always secondary to the spring of, the energy of a game and here I would seem to have found none. In particular, I found the numbered order markers tedious to use - especially using them in numbered order - and as for major Grauber/Gruber - he seems to have gone AWOL. I know none of my piece boards were missing components but I've looked high and low for him. coward, skulking away somewhere free of the sound of weaponry!
 
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Martin Gallo
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It is a shame that there are typos in the rules and scenario book (the names were changed to protect the REDACTED). Once I got around them the game played just fine.
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Tyler Martin
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nickp wrote:
Look, I have played the first three scenarios and found it stodgy, turgid and clunky - and that's the bits I enjoyed!

There's just too much information all over the place and the combat was so unexciting I barely cared who won. I found the veritable sweetshop array of colours induced delirium and even pure psychic automata devoid of all moral and aesthetic preoccupations.

Besides which some American officer and Major Grauber were nowhere to be seen and I don't believe I lost them. Basically, I thought the game was rubbish.

Therefore, it would be easy for me to cry 'HYPE!' and give up at this juncture.

However, the game seems to excite numerous BGGers including several I respect for their acumen, taste and experience so, come on everyone, make some encouraging sounds so I don't truck the game down to my local charity shop (that's thrift store for the yanks among you).



And where might your local charity shop be? whistle
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Bryan Nutting
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The rules leave a lot to be desired. However I have played a couple of games so far and I am due to play a few more tomorrow and we both enjoy the game a lot! If you do some simple searches on this site or on Google you can find some good tutorials which will make learning much much quicker. Once you get the basics down the play seems pretty straightforward.

I give the game two thumbs up!!
 
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Phil McDonald
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What !
 
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Robert Harbin
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It sounds like you have already planned your epic quest to the thrift store, so I won't try to stop you.

But for anyone else who is interested in this game, I thought I might add a few things.

This game is like an action packed WW II movie, with quirky heroes, dastardly villians, and cinematic action. Think Kelly's Heroes or Inglourious Basterds or any other movie that uses WWII as a backdrop to tell a great story.It is not a documentary or history piece.

It is probably not an accurate simulation of WWII ground combat.
(I did not fight in WWII,so I am not really qualified to judge.)

It is like being a kid again and having a box full of green Army Men who are the "Good Guys" and some grey ones who are the "Bad Guys".
(We never seemed to have enough tanks or jeeps or half-tracks so we had to share those.)

We would set up some awesome battles in the dirt and just play for hours.Moving our troops around rivers(puddles) and over mountains(dirtpiles),fighting all over the backyard.Man,that was fun.

That is what this game is.A massive sandbox to play a WWII wargame in.And Man, is it fun.

The first 3 scenarios are simple exercises to slowly teach you the mechanics, each one adding more complexity. The following scenarios ramp up the difficulty until you are set free to make your own, with an included point system.

Not sure how you can consign the game to rubbish status after only playing the first 3 training scenarios, but to each his own.

The colors and symbolism are bright and all over the place, but after you reference them with the back page of the rules, where every single one is listed, with page numbers, it becomes quite easy to know what they are.

And the missing pieces? These are just misprints in the rules.The unit names were changed somewhere and not changed in the rulebook, which was in French and translated into English.The pieces included in the box are right except for the names.
This info can be found here on BGG and on the Devil Pig website.

And so, to answer your question, "Is this game rubbish?"
No it is not.

It is a light, gorgeous, wargame, that sets up quick, plays quick, and still offers a lot of tactical choices, and tense battles for anyone interested in
a WWII sandbox and with plenty of units to go around .
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Phil McDonald
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Personally the scenarios don't excite me, but this is a sandbox game to die for.
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nick P
United Kingdom
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I would've thought it was clear from my OP that though I felt the game was rubbish, I also doubted my judgement. I nearly gave up on Band of Heroes early on for instance but stuck with it and eventually grew to like the game sufficiently to keep it (though I do think it is somewhat overrated). The learning curve towards proficiency can be difficult. however, it in no way reminds me of the toy soldiers I had as a kid - M44 reawakened that particular atavism in me - well, no more than any other wargame I play. So what is this 'miniatures' theme I pick up on reading reviews of HoN? In what way do its fans feel it resembles miniatures more than numerous other games? Is it the scale, the individual depictions of each last infantryman?

I didn't post this to get up anybody's nose. I follow a policy of never saying on the internet what I wouldn't be prepared to say to someone's face. I enjoy life and have no need to dump my frustrations anonymously on strangers.

Finally, what is a 'sandbox' game?
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Mr G
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To me, it is like a miniatures game because of the scale of the action and, to some extent, the actual physical components.

A squad based tactical skirmish game such as Warhammer 40k, Bolt Action, etc.

Rolling '5up to hit', is a similar mechanic to these games.

Choosing forces from a pool to a points limit, and random maps is also similar in feel.

A sandbox game is one in which the players create large elements of the actual game / scenario from the components provided. In this case it would be choice if maps, forces and objectives. The fixed elements are the mechanics.

So far, this game has been a decent system with very poorly translated rules and strange scenarios. It will make a good sandbox game.
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Martin Gallo
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nickp wrote:
I didn't post this to get up anybody's nose. I follow a policy of never saying on the internet what I wouldn't be prepared to say to someone's face. I enjoy life and have no need to dump my frustrations anonymously on strangers.
I found your post to be worthwhile and not inflammatory. Not every game will appeal to every person and first impressions can be hard to shake.

The game is not what I thought it would be when I bought in to it, but it is pretty close. I found it better in some ways (the squad building aspect, the DYO aspect and replay ability are better than I anticipated) and not quite as much fun in others (the combat system is a little too simplified for me to enjoy repeated plays without a break for something "meatier") but overall I am quite happy and actually wish I had more opponents for it (the 4th edition ATS rules were just released, that I have opponents for).
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Robert Harbin
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Yep, what they said.
The scenarios in the base set are a bit wonky,storyline wise, but I just looked at them as showing you what can be possible.They are teaching you what the system can do.I personally didn't enjoy the first two, but was hooked by the third.
There will be MANY more scenarios coming, just look at the lastest Kickstarter add ons, that will someday be in retail.These seem so much better than the starter box.

A sandbox is a game that gives you the tools and pieces, and lets you play around with them.Change the terrain, change the army compositions, change the battlefield conditions.
Just like the Army Men you had as a kid, playing in a "Sandbox".
You don't have to follow the scenarios as printed.
At the end of the scenario book they give you a point system and let you set all the battlefield conditions and then just go for it.

As far as the miniatures vibe, for me, it has everything a miniatures game has, except a figure that needs to be painted.
Line of sight,interesting and variable terrain, close assaults, different spec units, each serving it's own purpose, a point buy system allowing for balanced battles.It gives me the same feel with much less rules-mongering than 40k or Flames of War.

And I don't think your post is in anybody's nose.
This may not be the game for you, after all.
There are so many to choose from, find one you like and tell everybody about it.
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Arthur chang
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I have to agree on one aspect...the first few scenarios in the book are a bit weak and while I was initially super excited to have received the game, it was a big let down playing those missions.

I think one of the problems is that with basic units and little special abilities/heroes or vehicles, it actually is a boring system.

After playing some bigger scenarios and later those from D-Day -- and also modifying the 2nd mission with more units using the point buy -- I was hooked and have no regrets.

I know the OP mentioned having too many special abilities to memorize, but my feeling is that when you only have a handful to a dozen units on the board, the game would need some more special abilities to spice it up.
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Jacek Deimer
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1. If you don't like visual presentation of HoN, well, I think that nothing can save it for you. For many people visuals, are one of the strongest points of HoN. All information is directly printed on terrain and tokens. That's great.

If you don't like this style, then better get rid of the game.


2. First scenarios are total crap. Running for some files or a dog is not what this game is about .

Try some of the latest scenarios or setup an open scenario. Then it's a blast.


3. I don't want to question your intelectual capabilieties, Nick. But if you couldn't figure out what has happended to a mayor Grauber, that means that you were propably totaly out of shape. It's one of the very obvious mistakes.

I find orders mechanic very interesting and adding another layer of depth to the game. On the other hand I have no problems in putting numbers from 1 to 10 in order...

Rules are rather simple, but tactical depth an variety are 10x greater than those of MM44.

Yes, there are some symbols to memorize, but in fact not all that many...


4. This is not typical board game, it's a version miniatures battle system like Warhammer 40k, but with cardboard tokens instead of minis.

In system like that the most came from creating your own armies, battleground maps and testing your ideas agains opponents ideas.


5. Scalability, in fact this system works better with bigger armies and larger battleground when strategy and tactic are more importants.

With only few units it can a luckfest, randomly decided by a better dice rolls and card draws.
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Chad Hackman
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nickp wrote:
Look, I have played the first three scenarios and found it stodgy, turgid and clunky - and that's the bits I enjoyed!

There's just too much information all over the place and the combat was so unexciting I barely cared who won. I found the veritable sweetshop array of colours induced delirium and even pure psychic automata devoid of all moral and aesthetic preoccupations.

Besides which some American officer and Major Grauber were nowhere to be seen and I don't believe I lost them. Basically, I thought the game was rubbish.

Therefore, it would be easy for me to cry 'HYPE!' and give up at this juncture.

However, the game seems to excite numerous BGGers including several I respect for their acumen, taste and experience so, come on everyone, make some encouraging sounds so I don't truck the game down to my local charity shop (that's thrift store for the yanks among you).



I actually appreciate comments like this one. First, you presented what you didn't care for without outright saying the game had no place at all. Second, you did it without trolling or player bashing.

No, this game is not for everyone. Hopefully, there are some players in your area who may be able to salvage this game for you in some fashion. I love this game from start to finish. The scenarios in the starter book aren't the best but sandbox mode has serious potential. Also, one of the things you disliked the most...or maybe misunderstood the complexity of...is what I loved the most. Pre-assigned markers are one of my favourite mechanics of this game.

Anyway, good luck with finding a home for this if you decide to part. But, try giving it another shot using a self-devised scenario in sandbox mode. You may take a liking to the mode if you like miniatures.
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Will Miner
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The art work really is a turn off to me.State fair sray paint T-shirt art style.PASS.
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Ward Ed
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For me the artwork is one of the big positives of this game. If I compare I to all of the unpainted and rarely played miniatures games I have this is the game that fills that gap.

For me it is like being able to buy a load of different units and options at a fraction of the cost a a full miniatures game (to be fair thinking of warhammer or even axis and allies miniatures so your mileage may vary ...), skip the complex assembly and painting and have a fantastic points buy recruitment system to quickly build a customized army on a beautifully illustrated battlefield. This is the type of game I have been waiting 20 plus years for that plugs the gap between a full wargame without taking itself too seriously but not being so abstract or simple that it falls into the memoir 44 or command and colors/battlelore style of play that is too abstract and simple to feel like you are really in command of a couple of platoons/companies of troops.

Are the language snafus and printing errors on a couple of tokens annoying ... Yes. As such in couldn't give this game a 10 of 10 but it is for me a solid 9 and a half and a hell of a lot of fun once you get into all the options and potential custom scenarios you can create.
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M King
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But that rulebook. Even the revised version. It makes my head hurt. It really suffers in translation.
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Phil McDonald
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I really like the artwork, especially the armoured units.

To the OP, a sandbox game is one where you play on a point-buy basis and choose the terrain tiles between you. The template system and order stars are the best implementation I've seen for a sandbox game.

Set a point limit and choose your units in secret. Agree a victory point target. It's an absolute blast.
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mike dalziel
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I implore you to give it another go. I have not found a lot of joy in the scenarios but realise they are teaching tools to introduce you to the complexities of the system. If you are comfortable with the rules take 5 minutes and create a "what if" story, say 200 points of americans with a small tank trying to take a wood or a machine gun nest from 120 points of pzgrenadiers. Make it covering a road,..... tell a story!
Rev the engine on that stuart and give it a whirl.

This is a fantastic game, but it needs the right mindset to love.
I hope you can work out how to get the fun out of this as it really makes me smile.
mike
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nick P
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Hi, I'm the OP. I spent a good half-hour writing a comment this morning only to find it failed to post and disappeared. so, just a brief note to say I experimented this am in exactly the way the previous post suggested, though without too much concern for balance other than a rough estimate. It was a hedgerow rear guard action by 352nd ID troops (I have D Day also) against GIs plus a jeep and M4 tank. I allowed two cards each per side at any one time as I play solo and find cards can overwhelm my brain easily (a big problem in Tide of Iron). The festung troops have big machine gun power and this unbalanced the game but what the hell, it was only a 'see what happens' scenario. The Yanks had an artillery option but no appropriate cards came up. I enjoyed it but am left wondering whether my initial disappointment isn't partly down to exhaustion with tactical games - I play ASL, ATS, CoH, BoB, LnL, and ToI also. Some questions coming soon.
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Phil McDonald
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HawkeyeLonewolf wrote:
billingspike wrote:
The art work really is a turn off to me.State fair sray paint T-shirt art style.PASS.


aka "caricature"


In the same way that Kelly's Heroes was a caricature of a war movie... no less fun for that, it wasn't aiming to be 'The longest day' or 'All quiet on the Western front'.
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Jake Rose
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philmcd wrote:
HawkeyeLonewolf wrote:
billingspike wrote:
The art work really is a turn off to me.State fair sray paint T-shirt art style.PASS.


aka "caricature"


In the same way that Kelly's Heroes was a caricature of a war movie...


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Nick Bolton
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nothing to see here, move along
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nickp wrote:
Finally, what is a 'sandbox' game?



Snigwiddle wrote:


A sandbox is a game that gives you the tools and pieces, and lets you play around with them.Change the terrain, change the army compositions, change the battlefield conditions.
Just like the Army Men you had as a kid, playing in a "Sandbox".
You don't have to follow the scenarios as printed.


The English work for 'sandbox' is 'sandpit'.

The game provides options, as for a child playing with toys in a sandpit (as described above).
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