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Subject: Study: Socialists Are Cheaters rss

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Pete
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http://reason.com/blog/2014/07/22/socialists-are-cheaters-sa...

Quote:
"The longer individuals were exposed to socialism, the more likely they were to cheat on our task," according to a new study, "The (True) Legacy of Two Really Existing Economic Systems," from Duke University and the University of Munich. The team of researchers concluded this after working with 259 participants from Berlin who grew up on opposite sides of the infamous wall.

When playing a dice game that could earn them €6 ($8), subjects originally from the East, which was for four decades under socialist rule, were more likely than their market economy counterparts in West to lie about how they fared.


Comments anybody? Does this have any implications on our hobby?

Pete (apologizes if this is a repost, but doesn't typically frequent RSP)
 
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plezercruz wrote:
http://reason.com/blog/2014/07/22/socialists-are-cheaters-sa...

Quote:
"The longer individuals were exposed to socialism, the more likely they were to cheat on our task," according to a new study, "The (True) Legacy of Two Really Existing Economic Systems," from Duke University and the University of Munich. The team of researchers concluded this after working with 259 participants from Berlin who grew up on opposite sides of the infamous wall.

When playing a dice game that could earn them €6 ($8), subjects originally from the East, which was for four decades under socialist rule, were more likely than their market economy counterparts in West to lie about how they fared.


Comments anybody? Does this have any implications on our hobby?

Pete (apologizes if this is a repost, but doesn't typically frequent RSP)


The page isn't loading for me sadly, but on the face of it I'd say the interpretation is flawed since nothing like socialism existed in the USSR. It might be better to say 'people raised in a Tyranny where they cannot make a way forward honestly are likely to do so dishonestly.' which is sort of duh.

Not saying socialism is good, just we've not seen anything like it in large scale economics. I don't think it's feasible in large scale economies anyway.
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Based on that article, I'm not sure how they knew people were cheating. I assume it was based on a statistical analysis of the die rolls but that information wasn't included.
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twomillionbucks wrote:
Based on that article, I'm not sure how they knew people were cheating. I assume it was based on a statistical analysis of the die rolls but that information wasn't included.
Basically they had to roll a die 40 times and the results of the rolls were recorded. They were also told to declare before rolling whether they'd take the number that came out on top or the number that came out on the bottom.

So for example, if I rolled a 1, that roll is recorded. For that roll, 1 and 6 are both valid tallies on the scoresheet (2,3,4, and 5 were not possibilities). However, if I had called "top" before rolling, my result was a 1, and that's what I'm supposed to write down. The East Germans were 2x more likely than the West Germans to write down the 6.

Pete (sums up)
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twomillionbucks wrote:
Based on that article, I'm not sure how they knew people were cheating. I assume it was based on a statistical analysis of the die rolls but that information wasn't included.


Yup. The full article (linked in the Reason piece) explains.

It also mentions some of the very many confounding variables. The most obvious one, in my mind, is poverty. Given that East Germans born after socialism still cheat more than West Germans, but tend to be poorer, That seems to track cheating better than socialism. Given that it's checking the influences of just one socialist and one capitalist government, sample size is clearly an issue.

So, nothing like a conclusive result, but provocative, and Germany is about the best case there could be for controlling variables.
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rinelk wrote:
twomillionbucks wrote:
Based on that article, I'm not sure how they knew people were cheating. I assume it was based on a statistical analysis of the die rolls but that information wasn't included.


Yup. The full article (linked in the Reason piece) explains.

It also mentions some of the very many confounding variables. The most obvious one, in my mind, is poverty. Given that East Germans born after socialism still cheat more than West Germans, but tend to be poorer, That seems to track cheating better than socialism. Given that it's checking the influences of just one socialist and one capitalist government, sample size is clearly an issue.

So, nothing like a conclusive result, but provocative, and Germany is about the best case there could be for controlling variables.
I would imagine (but you never know) that between Duke University and University of Munich these people would be smart enough to account for those variables.

Pete (has been disappointed by academia before though)
 
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Or "the more people are exposed to totalitarianism they are more likely to cheat".

I think calling the GDR "socialist" is something of a stretch. In fact (even by European standards, let alone American) the FDR was pretty socialist.

I think they meant free market Vs communist.


I thin those who point out the poverty issue are closer to the mark.

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slatersteven wrote:
Or "the more people are exposed to totalitarianism they are more likely to cheat".

I think calling the GDR "socialist" is something of a stretch. In fact (even by European standards, let alone American) the FDR was pretty socialist.

I think they meant free market Vs communist.


I thin those who point out the poverty issue are closer to the mark.
I'd go so far as to say that if researchers failed to make sure their test subjects were similarly situated economically (i.e. purchasing power) then they should be dismissed.

Pete (thinks that's pretty basic for any research study)
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plezercruz wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Or "the more people are exposed to totalitarianism they are more likely to cheat".

I think calling the GDR "socialist" is something of a stretch. In fact (even by European standards, let alone American) the FDR was pretty socialist.

I think they meant free market Vs communist.


I thin those who point out the poverty issue are closer to the mark.
I'd go so far as to say that if researchers failed to make sure their test subjects were similarly situated economically (i.e. purchasing power) then they should be dismissed.

Pete (thinks that's pretty basic for any research study)
MMM they tested this on (at least in part) people picking up ID cards, which are issued at 16. As the GDR ceased to exist 24 years ago, how could 16 year olds have grown up under it? Sorry if I suspect they may not have exactly been rigorous in their approach.

Also test numbers were not even 134 subjects who reported being born in West Germany, compared to 97 born in the east, and another 24 were not even born in Germany.
 
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plezercruz wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Or "the more people are exposed to totalitarianism they are more likely to cheat".

I think calling the GDR "socialist" is something of a stretch. In fact (even by European standards, let alone American) the FDR was pretty socialist.

I think they meant free market Vs communist.


I thin those who point out the poverty issue are closer to the mark.
I'd go so far as to say that if researchers failed to make sure their test subjects were similarly situated economically (i.e. purchasing power) then they should be dismissed.

Pete (thinks that's pretty basic for any research study)


They didn't fail to notice it, they listed it as one of the confounds. Seriously, you should check out the actual article. Academic research is generally dramatically better at pointing out its own limitations than popular-press pieces on those same results.
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slatersteven wrote:
plezercruz wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Or "the more people are exposed to totalitarianism they are more likely to cheat".

I think calling the GDR "socialist" is something of a stretch. In fact (even by European standards, let alone American) the FDR was pretty socialist.

I think they meant free market Vs communist.


I thin those who point out the poverty issue are closer to the mark.
I'd go so far as to say that if researchers failed to make sure their test subjects were similarly situated economically (i.e. purchasing power) then they should be dismissed.

Pete (thinks that's pretty basic for any research study)
MMM they tested this on (at least in part) people picking up ID cards, which are issued at 16. As the GDR ceased to exist 24 years ago, how could 16 year olds have grown up under it? Sorry if I suspect they may not have exactly been rigorous in their approach.

Also test numbers were not even 134 subjects who reported being born in West Germany, compared to 97 born in the east, and another 24 were not even born in Germany.
What's MMM stand for?

Pete (isn't familiar with that one)
 
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rinelk wrote:
plezercruz wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Or "the more people are exposed to totalitarianism they are more likely to cheat".

I think calling the GDR "socialist" is something of a stretch. In fact (even by European standards, let alone American) the FDR was pretty socialist.

I think they meant free market Vs communist.


I thin those who point out the poverty issue are closer to the mark.
I'd go so far as to say that if researchers failed to make sure their test subjects were similarly situated economically (i.e. purchasing power) then they should be dismissed.

Pete (thinks that's pretty basic for any research study)


They didn't fail to notice it, they listed it as one of the confounds. Seriously, you should check out the actual article. Academic research is generally dramatically better at pointing out its own limitations than popular-press pieces on those same results.
OK, that satisfies me. I would be outraged if they just ignored it!

Pete (approves)
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I think that married people cheat more than single people. laugh

Apparently cheaters don't feel bad about cheating as long as they don't feel someone was hurt.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/cheaters-do-prospe...
Quote:
The study's lead researcher Nicole E. Ruedy of the University of Washington said: "The good feeling some people get when they cheat may be one reason people are unethical even when the payoff is small."


I was on an academic honesty panel and had to try one other young lady for cheating. She and her family were devastated. We sentenced her to an "F" in the class. To top it off, she did a really bad job of cheating.

I don't know why I never cheated. It would have been pretty easy.
 
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plezercruz wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
plezercruz wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Or "the more people are exposed to totalitarianism they are more likely to cheat".

I think calling the GDR "socialist" is something of a stretch. In fact (even by European standards, let alone American) the FDR was pretty socialist.

I think they meant free market Vs communist.


I thin those who point out the poverty issue are closer to the mark.
I'd go so far as to say that if researchers failed to make sure their test subjects were similarly situated economically (i.e. purchasing power) then they should be dismissed.

Pete (thinks that's pretty basic for any research study)
MMM they tested this on (at least in part) people picking up ID cards, which are issued at 16. As the GDR ceased to exist 24 years ago, how could 16 year olds have grown up under it? Sorry if I suspect they may not have exactly been rigorous in their approach.

Also test numbers were not even 134 subjects who reported being born in West Germany, compared to 97 born in the east, and another 24 were not even born in Germany.
What's MMM stand for?

Pete (isn't familiar with that one)
Sorry that should have been Erm (though Mmmm! , sounding similar, is just as good for expressing the "are you sure" mumble I wanted to convey)! In English it is used as an example of a none committal mumble of mild disagreement.
 
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Clicked through for the title. Wasn't not disappointed.

Contact Buzzfeed?
 
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Socialism promises to take from others and give it to you. It's dressed up and called "redistribution of wealth" but its really just using legal violence to take from people who are more successful. So it certainly makes sense that the lower life forms that embrace socialism also have no problems cheating in other aspects of their "lives" as long as they can justify it that "it's only fair" to them.
 
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jeremycobert wrote:
Socialism promises to take from others and give it to you. It's dressed up and called "redistribution of wealth" but its really just using legal violence to take from people who are more successful. So it certainly makes sense that the lower life forms that embrace socialism also have no problems cheating in other aspects of their "lives" as long as they can justify it that "it's only fair" to them.


That isn't what Socialism argues for.

Rather, Socialism argues that the material wealth of a society is owned by all of the members of that society in common, and that wealth should equally dispersed for the benefit of society as a whole.

Darilian
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jeremycobert wrote:
So it certainly makes sense that the lower life forms that embrace socialism also have no problems cheating in other aspects of their "lives" as long as they can justify it that "it's only fair" to them.


Interesting, very interesting choice of words here!
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Dr. No wrote:
Interesting, very interesting choice of words here!


You're welcome.
 
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Drew1365 wrote:
Darilian wrote:
jeremycobert wrote:
Socialism promises to take from others and give it to you. It's dressed up and called "redistribution of wealth" but its really just using legal violence to take from people who are more successful. So it certainly makes sense that the lower life forms that embrace socialism also have no problems cheating in other aspects of their "lives" as long as they can justify it that "it's only fair" to them.


That isn't what Socialism argues for.

Rather, Socialism argues that the material wealth of a society is owned by all of the members of that society in common, and that wealth should equally dispersed for the benefit of society as a whole.


That's what he said. You just put lipstick on it and gave it a kiss.


Actually, I used a dictionary.

But I forget how you guys love your straw men.

I also forgot that dictionaries are part of the liberal media conspiracy.

Darilian
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jeremycobert wrote:
Dr. No wrote:
Interesting, very interesting choice of words here!


You're welcome.


No; Thanks; I'd rather not be!
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Drew1365 wrote:
Darilian wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
Darilian wrote:
jeremycobert wrote:
Socialism promises to take from others and give it to you. It's dressed up and called "redistribution of wealth" but its really just using legal violence to take from people who are more successful. So it certainly makes sense that the lower life forms that embrace socialism also have no problems cheating in other aspects of their "lives" as long as they can justify it that "it's only fair" to them.


That isn't what Socialism argues for.

Rather, Socialism argues that the material wealth of a society is owned by all of the members of that society in common, and that wealth should equally dispersed for the benefit of society as a whole.


That's what he said. You just put lipstick on it and gave it a kiss.


Actually, I used a dictionary.


If you were smart, you'd realize what an empty sentence that was. There is no dictionary. There are many dictionaries.

Quote:
But I forget how you guys love your straw men.


When it comes to straw men, you are unsurpassed, as the sentence above shows.

Quote:
I also forgot that dictionaries are part of the liberal media conspiracy.


No, actually, my side believes that words have meaning. Your side constantly redefines words to suit your political ends, to the point where words become practically meaningless.

Case in point: your attempt to make socialism sound all nice and fuzzy and friendly.

"Control the language and you control the people."

Geez Drew-
I used the Merriam Webster dictionary, and not the 'Marxist Guide to Obfuscating Post-Structuralist Language in Order to Brainwash Conservatives.

And by the way-
You're about the biggest believer in Post-Modernism in RSP, with your constant refrain about 'controlling language'.

Your patently absurd attempt to paint me as some form of neo-Marxist, out to deconstruct Capitalist hegemony is ridiculous, based neither in any reality or by my posting history.

Put down the 1984 bongpipe and come back to reality, Drew.

Darilian


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jeremycobert wrote:
...the lower life forms that embrace socialism...


Sub-humans, you might say.
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Drew1365 wrote:
Darilian wrote:
jeremycobert wrote:
Socialism promises to take from others and give it to you. It's dressed up and called "redistribution of wealth" but its really just using legal violence to take from people who are more successful. So it certainly makes sense that the lower life forms that embrace socialism also have no problems cheating in other aspects of their "lives" as long as they can justify it that "it's only fair" to them.


That isn't what Socialism argues for.

Rather, Socialism argues that the material wealth of a society is owned by all of the members of that society in common, and that wealth should equally dispersed for the benefit of society as a whole.


That's what he said. You just put lipstick on it and gave it a kiss.


No drew, he's talking about fundamental principles of society. This is big boy stuff.

If all the property of a society is held in common it is in fact impossible to steal anything from anyone.

Ownership of anything is only ever based on one of 2 scenarios.

1)Ownership is assigned by society using a framework of laws, whatever they may be. You own it because the strength of the society is backing you up on it. Without that backing your claims of ownership are meaningless.

2)You claim ownership and defend that claim with your own violence. You can keep what you can protect and that's it.

The concept of 'natural rights' is all naval gazing when you get down to it. IT's Good and valuable naval gazing because we've used to it to build our particular society, but pretending it is something concrete is just willful blindness.
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Darilian wrote:

Put down the 1984 bongpipe and come back to reality, Drew.

Darilian




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