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Subject: Obama = Lando Calrissian rss

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Kelsey Rinella
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That strikes me as about right. He's basically a decent, chilled-out dude, but political concerns and corruption (but I repeat myself) put him in a tough spot, and he betrays old friends' trust to expand his government's power. In the end, I think he's on the side of the good guys, but there's definitely an element of disappointment.

This post was in no way intended to test out the "embed tweet" feature I just noticed after using the site for ten years.
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How does Anakin Skywalker have a higher approval rating than Darth Vader???
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Kelsey, you say this:

Quote:
He's basically a decent, chilled-out dude


But then, you say this:

Quote:
he betrays old friends' trust to expand his government's power


Quote:
political concerns and corruption


And you managed to do this in one paragraph. I've seen pics of your kids, they're beautiful. So are you teaching them that people who betray friends to further their own obsession with power and who empower corruption and political concerns in order to get what they want are actually decent chilled-out dudes?

All I'm saying is that the current young generation may not be the best one of they grow up believing that corrupt politicians with a history of betrayal and power-grabbing to further personal agendas are actually decent people.
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Kelsey Rinella
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DWTripp wrote:
Kelsey, you say this:

Quote:
He's basically a decent, chilled-out dude


But then, you say this:

Quote:
he betrays old friends' trust to expand his government's power


Quote:
political concerns and corruption


And you managed to do this in one paragraph. I've seen pics of your kids, they're beautiful. So are you teaching them that people who betray friends to further their own obsession with power and who empower corruption and political concerns in order to get what they want are actually decent chilled-out dudes?

All I'm saying is that the current young generation may not be the best one of they grow up believing that corrupt politicians with a history of betrayal and power-grabbing to further personal agendas are actually decent people.


It's a matter of thinking that good people can do bad things in circumstances which give them no good options. Our political system is so endemically corrupt that no one can be successful in it without a substantial degree of corruption and betrayal, which is why I think changes to make politicians more able to be honest and serve the common good are more important than any other political issue.

So, I agree with you that it would be problematic to teach my children that everything Obama does is good, and I don't even think it's quite all forced by his situation. But I definitely want them to care more about a good system than good individuals.
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Drew1365 wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
All I'm saying is that the current young generation may not be the best one if they grow up believing that corrupt politicians with a history of betrayal and power-grabbing to further personal agendas are actually decent people.


I noticed a change sometime in the mid-to-late 90s that the younger generation seemed to have adopted an attitude that if you win by cheating, you still won. Cheating was no longer automatically frowned upon. If you get away with it, then it's not wrong. It's only wrong to get caught, and then the error is not the action itself but the "getting caught" part.

This view seems to have since permeated the culture far more broadly than I ever expected.

And so we have politicians who commit scandalous acts, break laws with impunity, and nobody really cares because "they all do it."

This is dangerous for a culture.


If that's such a new phenomenon, then why are there so many Mark Twain quotes about how shitty politicians are?
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twomillionbucks wrote:
How does Anakin Skywalker have a higher approval rating than Darth Vader???
The catholic priest vote.
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rinelk wrote:


It's a matter of thinking that good people can do bad things in circumstances which give them no good options. Our political system is so endemically corrupt that no one can be successful in it without a substantial degree of corruption and betrayal, which is why I think changes to make politicians more able to be honest and serve the common good are more important than any other political issue.

So, I agree with you that it would be problematic to teach my children that everything Obama does is good, and I don't even think it's quite all forced by his situation. But I definitely want them to care more about a good system than good individuals.


Think all you want, but this entire statement is you excusing the actions of the most powerful man on the planet. That's sort of what I mean by suggesting that teaching the current young generation that wishy-washy morality is really cool and that people who are corrupt lawbreakers are actually no different than people who are moral and ethical... well... then you're going to end up with a generation that cheats, lies and betrays on the principles they learned from Dad and Mom at the family table.

I don't buy the excuses. And I don't buy the notion that what is clearly lying, criminal and corrupt behavior on the part of our prominent politicians is okay because there have always been liars.

If you don't demand honesty and integrity, from your own kids, from your friends, from your fellows and from the people you vote for, then you aren't going to get it. I know honest people who remained honest and trustworthy in life situations much more stressful than any our elected officials typically experienced. Plus, you can't have a good system without good individuals Kelsey, fer fuck's sake man, think about it.

This guy has always been a liar and corrupt. At least from his early adulthood. How anyone fails to see that is pretty amazing to me. I guess it proves Forrest Gump right - stupid is as stupid does.
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I don't think the ability to work within a corrupt system by being corrupt is "admirable" or "cool". I don't think many people do. I do think that anyone who currently holds office in Washington had to "play ball" to get where they are. Lambasting Obama as some exception to the rule is not accurate. They are all crooks because we allow the system to be crooked. We can lament the effects it has on out culture all we want, but it's not the flies that the poop attracts that are the problem, it's the poop itself. You can be disgusted by the flies and shoo them away, but you are never going to attract butterflies with shit. A system that only works crookedly, won't ever allow virtuous people to get farther than local politics. So people continue to pick the lesser of two evils.

3rd parties who present more honorable choices (even the fringe of the main parties for that matter) are crowded out of the process by the corrupt machine who says that "idealists" would just shut down government because they don't play ball and aren't viable choices.

It's understandable for us to look for any redeeming qualities in a candidate, outside their ability to work the corrupt system. Thats all we have to go on when we vote anymore. This person who is willing to play ball who gets this done or that person who is willing to play ball to get that done. Change the game and we get different players. Players that can be held up as role models for kids.
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No Wedge Antilles on the list of favourite characters? Just who did they ask?
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andyl wrote:
No Wedge Antilles on the list of favourite characters? Just who did they ask?

In the theatrical versions, he is only a name referred to.
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Drew1365 wrote:
mlcarter815 wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
All I'm saying is that the current young generation may not be the best one if they grow up believing that corrupt politicians with a history of betrayal and power-grabbing to further personal agendas are actually decent people.


I noticed a change sometime in the mid-to-late 90s that the younger generation seemed to have adopted an attitude that if you win by cheating, you still won. Cheating was no longer automatically frowned upon. If you get away with it, then it's not wrong. It's only wrong to get caught, and then the error is not the action itself but the "getting caught" part.

This view seems to have since permeated the culture far more broadly than I ever expected.

And so we have politicians who commit scandalous acts, break laws with impunity, and nobody really cares because "they all do it."

This is dangerous for a culture.


If that's such a new phenomenon, then why are there so many Mark Twain quotes about how shitty politicians are?


What's new is the idea that cheating is socially acceptable. To the point that "shitty politicians" are admired for their ability to break laws and get away with it.


By "new" Drew means "from the last 300 years."
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So if Obama is Lando Calrissian (racist!) then I guess that means that Bush Jr. is Darth Vader, Han Solo is Bill Clinton and John Kerry is Jar Jar Binks?
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Kelsey Rinella
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DWTripp wrote:
rinelk wrote:


It's a matter of thinking that good people can do bad things in circumstances which give them no good options. Our political system is so endemically corrupt that no one can be successful in it without a substantial degree of corruption and betrayal, which is why I think changes to make politicians more able to be honest and serve the common good are more important than any other political issue.

So, I agree with you that it would be problematic to teach my children that everything Obama does is good, and I don't even think it's quite all forced by his situation. But I definitely want them to care more about a good system than good individuals.


Think all you want, but this entire statement is you excusing the actions of the most powerful man on the planet. That's sort of what I mean by suggesting that teaching the current young generation that wishy-washy morality is really cool and that people who are corrupt lawbreakers are actually no different than people who are moral and ethical... well... then you're going to end up with a generation that cheats, lies and betrays on the principles they learned from Dad and Mom at the family table.

I don't buy the excuses. And I don't buy the notion that what is clearly lying, criminal and corrupt behavior on the part of our prominent politicians is okay because there have always been liars.

If you don't demand honesty and integrity, from your own kids, from your friends, from your fellows and from the people you vote for, then you aren't going to get it. I know honest people who remained honest and trustworthy in life situations much more stressful than any our elected officials typically experienced. Plus, you can't have a good system without good individuals Kelsey, fer fuck's sake man, think about it.

This guy has always been a liar and corrupt. At least from his early adulthood. How anyone fails to see that is pretty amazing to me. I guess it proves Forrest Gump right - stupid is as stupid does.


If you can name for me three honest, national elected officials, I'll change my tune on Obama. If not, I think you're doing a decent job of making the point that the current political system forces a certain degree of corruption onto our representatives. That doesn't make corruption cool! It just means that the responsibility for it lies partly with us, for not changing the system. I want my children to learn to take responsibility for their contributions to the system under which they live as well as for the direct consequences of their actions.
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rinelk wrote:

If you can name for me three honest, national elected officials, I'll change my tune on Obama. If not, I think you're doing a decent job of making the point that the current political system forces a certain degree of corruption onto our representatives. That doesn't make corruption cool! It just means that the responsibility for it lies partly with us, for not changing the system. I want my children to learn to take responsibility for their contributions to the system under which they live as well as for the direct consequences of their actions.


What the hell are you smoking? Do you actually believe there are no honest elected officials? Or car salesmen, Or lawyers? And why should I have to name the ones I see as honest just to make you either feel better or for you to try and prove you're right?

Nonetheless, I voted for Mike Crapo and Raul Labador because they are honest men. Which makes them honest politicians because they are national elected officials. That's two that are currently in office but further than that Rand Paul qualifies and frankly, so does Joe Biden. As did Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan and Jerry Brown, both then and now. The list of men and women serving the public in elected office that are honest is pretty damned big.

Does that mean that every one of these people never lied, about anything? Nope. No more than you wanting honesty in your dealings with people indicates you've never lied yourself, or committed a small crime of some sort. The issue I have with partisans is that they assume everyone but themselves personally is a crook and so they apply a warped moral relativism to politicians - all politicians are evil so I'll vote for my evil guy because he's, you know, less like you and more like me.

On the other hand, how about having some personal standards that aren't subject to change when you feel it's merited by someone else's bad behavior. Demand a certain standard of ethics and competence and do not vote for anyone who doesn't meet the basic levels of those qualities, regardless of their party. And, always cast your vote for people you feel are moral and principled, even if they don't see everything as you do.

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DWTripp wrote:

Do you actually believe there are no honest elected officials?


Nope. Not one.


Quote:
Or car salesmen,


Not one who keeps their job for long.

Quote:
Or lawyers?


Probably just Dan, Ken, and MGK.
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twomillionbucks wrote:
How does Anakin Skywalker have a higher approval rating than Darth Vader???


Fucking kids. They need to get off my lawn.
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djgutierrez77 wrote:


Probably just Dan, Ken, and MGK.


Hey man, don't diss me.
 
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
mlcarter815 wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
All I'm saying is that the current young generation may not be the best one if they grow up believing that corrupt politicians with a history of betrayal and power-grabbing to further personal agendas are actually decent people.


I noticed a change sometime in the mid-to-late 90s that the younger generation seemed to have adopted an attitude that if you win by cheating, you still won. Cheating was no longer automatically frowned upon. If you get away with it, then it's not wrong. It's only wrong to get caught, and then the error is not the action itself but the "getting caught" part.

This view seems to have since permeated the culture far more broadly than I ever expected.

And so we have politicians who commit scandalous acts, break laws with impunity, and nobody really cares because "they all do it."

This is dangerous for a culture.


If that's such a new phenomenon, then why are there so many Mark Twain quotes about how shitty politicians are?


What's new is the idea that cheating is socially acceptable. To the point that "shitty politicians" are admired for their ability to break laws and get away with it.


By "new" Drew means "from the last 300 years."

I think Drew is actually right on this one. Cheating has become much more acceptable in just the past generation or two.
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she2 wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:


Probably just Dan, Ken, and MGK.


Hey man, don't diss me.

You're a lawyer? I always thought you were some vaguely science-y type.
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she2 wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:


Probably just Dan, Ken, and MGK.


Hey man, don't diss me.


I did not know you were a lawyer, ma'am.
 
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damiangerous wrote:
she2 wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:


Probably just Dan, Ken, and MGK.


Hey man, don't diss me.

You're a lawyer? I always thought you were some vaguely science-y type.


Second that. I thought I remembered you being a chemist or some such.
 
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
DWTripp wrote:

Do you actually believe there are no honest elected officials?


Nope. Not one.


Quote:
Or car salesmen,


Not one who keeps their job for long.

Quote:
Or lawyers?


Probably just Dan, Ken, and MGK.


Hopefully you're kidding. If not then I wouldn't trust you with pocket change. A universally cynical attitude towards honesty and morality is, in my opinion, a reflection of how the cynic views their own commitment to honesty.

I sold cars for a number of years and not only did I not lie, cheat or steal, but the dealership, it's management and the employees I worked with were a knowledgeable, competent and honest group. I know easily more than 10 lawyers that I think of as honest and trustworthy... a couple to a fault even at their own expense. I have voted for politicians who made campaign promises that they backed up while in office and while that may be less common on a national level, it's not a rare thing even there and certainly it's very common on a local level for politicians to at least try and be honest. Many fail and it's those who fail and the lack of consequences for their dishonesty that attracts more of their kind.

Most people are more honest than not. But what Drew is referring to is a rising level of cynicism among new generations towards the value of honesty, morality and having standards of conduct that are ethical. All you have to do is change the definition of morality or honesty and you've effectively created an atmosphere where dishonesty is expected and people who refuse to cheat and steal are considered naive, ignorant or marks.

I don't steal things because I don't like the idea of things being stolen. From me for sure, but also from those I care about. All it takes is to extend the group of people you care about outwards enough to include a neighborhood, community, city, state or nation and it becomes easier to embrace honesty and ethical conduct for yourself in order to do your part in keeping them from being damaged or diminished.

Just a note - this is really how I view the world. And it works pretty damned good because it's the level of integrity I taught my children and expected them to rise up to and as a result they demanded similar standards from their friends and eventual spouses.

It works. And it really does make your life better and the lives of those you have an effect on. The wonderful and friendly customer base I was fortunate to have in the decades I owned a game store was only possible because I was fair, ethical and honest to them and in turn they gave it back.

Sorry Kelsey if this sounds lecture-y, but man, kids take things parents say and do very seriously and I'd hate to see you raise a couple of Dave G style cynics.
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damiangerous wrote:
she2 wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:


Probably just Dan, Ken, and MGK.


Hey man, don't diss me.

You're a lawyer? I always thought you were some vaguely science-y type.


I am a science-y lawyer, otherwise known as a patent attorney who used to be a research chemist.
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What surprises me is that Luke is more popular than Han. I mean, it's obvious to everyone that Han Solo is way more awesome, right?
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Drew1365 wrote:


I noticed a change sometime in the mid-to-late 90s that the younger generation seemed to have adopted an attitude that if you win by cheating, you still won. Cheating was no longer automatically frowned upon. If you get away with it, then it's not wrong. It's only wrong to get caught, and then the error is not the action itself but the "getting caught" part.

This view seems to have since permeated the culture far more broadly than I ever expected.

And so we have politicians who commit scandalous acts, break laws with impunity, and nobody really cares because "they all do it."

This is dangerous for a culture.


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